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Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: awesome10] #2857598
06/11/19 07:16 PM
06/11/19 07:16 PM
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awesome10 Offline OP
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How are the modern day Bluthners? I am also getting a good deal on a Bluthner Model 6 and 4 (ex display) .....

Are there some issues with a Bluthner that make it necessary to have a specific tuner?

I am also looking at rebuilt Bluthners and Bechsteins(pre 1910) as a couple of such 7 foot instruments are under £20,000 ....
https://www.robertspianos.com/pianos-for-sale/


Are there some issues one must be aware while looking at such vintage instruments?

Also , a local piano dealer has a very beautiful (ornate music desk , a bit of inlay) Bechstein model (circa 1905) redone by 1066 pianos(of Cambridge) around 6 months ago for around 14,000 .

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Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: awesome10] #2857604
06/11/19 08:01 PM
06/11/19 08:01 PM
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I know you said you're advising a charity on this purchase (hence no VAT). I believe you said it will be in a small hall. I don't recall if you said how much play you expect the piano will get and who will be playing it. And is the case condition very important?

Rebuilt pianos can be great, but it really depends on who did the rebuilding and how completely it has been rebuilt. Old pianos often have action parts that are no longer made (so the action can be meticulously rebuilt wippen by wippen, but it may not be possible to find a modern wippen that can fit in these old pianos, even with moving the action rails). Old Bechsteins didn't use capstan screws but their own "rocker" to do what a capstan does...much harder to regulate.

Blüthner had a "patented" action that was very different from what you find in most pianos. I don't know how rebuilders work on these when they encounter them or how technicians/tuners deal with them. The old Blüthner aliquot string was suspended above the other strings; never having tuned one I am not sure what issues that might bring up.

And then older European pianos generally have 2 pedals (no sostenuto pedal) which might be an issue for some pianists. While most old European instruments from the turn of the last century had 88 keys, some have only 85.

Personally, I'd rather have a newer instrument that doesn't present any headaches for future technicians.


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Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: AaronSF] #2857650
06/12/19 01:15 AM
06/12/19 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AaronSF

Rebuilt pianos can be great, but it really depends on who did the rebuilding and how completely it has been rebuilt. Old pianos often have action parts that are no longer made (so the action can be meticulously rebuilt wippen by wippen, but it may not be possible to find a modern wippen that can fit in these old pianos, even with moving the action rails). Old Bechsteins didn't use capstan screws but their own "rocker" to do what a capstan does...much harder to regulate.



One of the generic Renner wippens fits the old Bechsteins perfectly. Replacing the rockers with capstans is not a big deal, provided it's done by someone who understands what they are doing.

Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: awesome10] #2857652
06/12/19 01:21 AM
06/12/19 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by awesome10
How are the modern day Bluthners? I am also getting a good deal on a Bluthner Model 6 and 4 (ex display) .....

Are there some issues with a Bluthner that make it necessary to have a specific tuner?



Modern Blüthners are amazing. They have four notes per string in the treble, but I can't imagine a tuner being unable to deal with this. Some block the fourth string and tune normally. Then they tune these strings afterwards.

Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: AaronSF] #2857670
06/12/19 04:57 AM
06/12/19 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AaronSF
I know you said you're advising a charity on this purchase (hence no VAT). I believe you said it will be in a small hall. I don't recall if you said how much play you expect the piano will get and who will be playing it. And is the case condition very important?

Rebuilt pianos can be great, but it really depends on who did the rebuilding and how completely it has been rebuilt. Old pianos often have action parts that are no longer made (so the action can be meticulously rebuilt wippen by wippen, but it may not be possible to find a modern wippen that can fit in these old pianos, even with moving the action rails). Old Bechsteins didn't use capstan screws but their own "rocker" to do what a capstan does...much harder to regulate.

Blüthner had a "patented" action that was very different from what you find in most pianos. I don't know how rebuilders work on these when they encounter them or how technicians/tuners deal with them. The old Blüthner aliquot string was suspended above the other strings; never having tuned one I am not sure what issues that might bring up.

And then older European pianos generally have 2 pedals (no sostenuto pedal) which might be an issue for some pianists. While most old European instruments from the turn of the last century had 88 keys, some have only 85.

Personally, I'd rather have a newer instrument that doesn't present any headaches for future technicians.


The hall is small , but not very small ( a height of 5-6 metres , carpet area of around 220 square metres). Regarding the case , the visual condition is not very important.

The piano is generally going to be used for chapel services and other events( including some minor concerts).

Regarding the Bluthner , the reason why I raised the question was that the Bluthner technician told me that there were a handful of people in the country who could properly regulate the action (the old Bluthner action before the new Aliquot patent).

Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: awesome10] #2857672
06/12/19 05:15 AM
06/12/19 05:15 AM
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Queensland, Australia
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To be honest, I can't see how a charity would look on a 114 year old piano as being an alternative to a new one - unless one of them is very well versed in pianos.

It could also be more difficult for them to insure - a 2019 piano is a 2019 piano, but to get an insurance company to insure a 1905 piano could be very difficult - at least to get it insured for the amount which was paid, particularly as time goes by.

Is there a different treatment of VAT for used vs new?


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: awesome10] #2857674
06/12/19 05:31 AM
06/12/19 05:31 AM
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For a venue, I wouldn't go for any restored piano unless it had extensive rebuilding work done, meaning the installation of a new soundboard, and a new tuning plank, and, for a venue, a new action. Anything less than that isn't going to be reliable enough. A 6'3 rebuilt Blüthner from Blüthners London would be a good choice because of the restoration work done on the piano. The patent action Blüthners are beautiful to play on, and when they are properly regulated they have none of the repetition problems that people say they do. There is a difference in feel in that the sound happens higher up the key travel, but it's really nothing that you can't adjust to very quickly. The only reason I'd avoid one for a venue is the fact that there are very few technicians can make a good job at regulating them.

Regarding the insurance, it's easy enough to get a note from the rebuilder or showroom to say how much you paid for the piano, and just insure it for that amount. That's what I did with my piano.

In the UK the VAT is 20 percent whether buying new or used, and the only difference would be buying from somewhere that doesn't pay VAT, and since most piano dealers have a turnover of more than £70,000 a year, there will be VAT on all instruments bought through a dealer.

A new Blüthner model 6, is 6'3, and if it fits within your budget would be a good choice. The 6'3 Blüthner is used for concerts by Blüthner themselves in the Landsdowne Club which seats about 200 people and fills the room well. The 6'11 model 4 would give you a different character in the bass, but not necessarily better or louder. There is no reason why any competent tuner couldn't regulate and tune a new Blüthner piano. The Blüthner 6'3, for whatever reason, sounds like a larger piano when comparing it to 6' pianos from other makes. That's also true of the Bösendorfer 185 and the Steinway model A, but these pianos cost a lot more than your budget, so I'm guessing the Blüthner you are looking at has a few years on it, because the retail price new is £69,000.

A rebuilt piano is a particular flavour. Yes they are beautiful, but there are differences in the tone. The differences may be perceived as superior by some and inferior by others, so it's not a 'safe' bet compared with a new instrument. When choosing for a venue you want to go for something that as many pianists as possible will feel comfortable playing.

Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: joe80] #2857681
06/12/19 06:11 AM
06/12/19 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by joe80
For a venue, I wouldn't go for any restored piano unless it had extensive rebuilding work done, meaning the installation of a new soundboard, and a new tuning plank, and, for a venue, a new action. Anything less than that isn't going to be reliable enough. A 6'3 rebuilt Blüthner from Blüthners London would be a good choice because of the restoration work done on the piano. The patent action Blüthners are beautiful to play on, and when they are properly regulated they have none of the repetition problems that people say they do. There is a difference in feel in that the sound happens higher up the key travel, but it's really nothing that you can't adjust to very quickly. The only reason I'd avoid one for a venue is the fact that there are very few technicians can make a good job at regulating them.

Regarding the insurance, it's easy enough to get a note from the rebuilder or showroom to say how much you paid for the piano, and just insure it for that amount. That's what I did with my piano.

In the UK the VAT is 20 percent whether buying new or used, and the only difference would be buying from somewhere that doesn't pay VAT, and since most piano dealers have a turnover of more than £70,000 a year, there will be VAT on all instruments bought through a dealer.

A new Blüthner model 6, is 6'3, and if it fits within your budget would be a good choice. The 6'3 Blüthner is used for concerts by Blüthner themselves in the Landsdowne Club which seats about 200 people and fills the room well. The 6'11 model 4 would give you a different character in the bass, but not necessarily better or louder. There is no reason why any competent tuner couldn't regulate and tune a new Blüthner piano. The Blüthner 6'3, for whatever reason, sounds like a larger piano when comparing it to 6' pianos from other makes. That's also true of the Bösendorfer 185 and the Steinway model A, but these pianos cost a lot more than your budget, so I'm guessing the Blüthner you are looking at has a few years on it, because the retail price new is £69,000.

A rebuilt piano is a particular flavour. Yes they are beautiful, but there are differences in the tone. The differences may be perceived as superior by some and inferior by others, so it's not a 'safe' bet compared with a new instrument. When choosing for a venue you want to go for something that as many pianists as possible will feel comfortable playing.


I'll discard the idea of a restored piano then.

Regarding the VAT , Steinway doesn't charge VAT on buying pre-owned models (which is an absolutely ridiculous idea considering their non-negotiable pricing) . A new model B is around 88,000 including the VAT , and a 2016 model B is for around 79,000. The absurd part is that even if someone got the 2016 model , the piano is VAT-free since it was preowned.

The Bluthners I am looking at are around 8-9 years ood but fully regulated. The Model 2 , is however new but Bluthner is giving a good deal on it. The Bluthner store is very different from the Steinway Hall , no arrogant sales pitches , no saying that a Boston is better than other Kawai's (including Shigeru's) ........

It also seems Steinway has a Satin model for certain models(around 3-5k less expensive) which they are unwilling to sell for any public venue ........

Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: awesome10] #2857682
06/12/19 06:17 AM
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Even regarding the Schimmel K232/ Phoenix D232 I am looking at , they are around 4-6 years old .

The Schimmel seems to very well maintained (only used for some short term hires and primarily display) , and will be re -polyestered before sale. It also seems to have some sort of re-enforced legs ( with a steel bar running through the legs).

I am planning to go and have a look at the Phoenix. One thing I am unable to comprehend - why is a Phoenix much cheaper than a similarly sized Steingraeber?

Last edited by awesome10; 06/12/19 06:19 AM.
Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: awesome10] #2857690
06/12/19 07:28 AM
06/12/19 07:28 AM
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Quote
am planning to go and have a look at the Phoenix. One thing I am unable to comprehend - why is a Phoenix much cheaper than a similarly sized Steingraeber?

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet :-)

Phoenix is mostly constructed in Polen, but with some assembly in England.
Steingraeber is constructed in Germany.

Other than that, the reason is the same as why Steinway is more expensive than most others. Name recognition. Marketing. Perceived value. Some small things that make you want the one more than the other. I think all German manufacturers make wonderful pianos and in theory, they should cost about the same. They all sound different. They all have their strong suits. In the end, that is why you should try as many pianos as possible, as you are more likely to find something that meets your requirements functionally, as well as financially.


Last edited by Skjalg; 06/12/19 07:28 AM.
Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: awesome10] #2857818
06/12/19 02:07 PM
06/12/19 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by awesome10


The Bluthners I am looking at are around 8-9 years ood but fully regulated. The Model 2 , is however new but Bluthner is giving a good deal on it. ..


Bluthner Model 2s are divine instruments.

Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: awesome10] #2857847
06/12/19 03:27 PM
06/12/19 03:27 PM
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A decade old Blüthner that has been looked after by Blüthner's should still be pretty excellent, if the servicing has been done right. If you're happy with the price and the funding checks out, then you can't go wrong really.

Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: joe80] #2857854
06/12/19 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by joe80
A decade old Blüthner that has been looked after by Blüthner's should still be pretty excellent, if the servicing has been done right. If you're happy with the price and the funding checks out, then you can't go wrong really.


What is your experience with those instruments in terms of longevity, i.e. when they are in heavy use and there is little budget for regular maintenance?

Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: awesome10] #2857858
06/12/19 04:03 PM
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They're very strong, they retain their tone for a long time, and they need no more regulation and voicing than any other make. The tuning is incredibly stable as well.

Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: Skjalg] #2857936
06/12/19 09:01 PM
06/12/19 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Skjalg
Quote
am planning to go and have a look at the Phoenix. One thing I am unable to comprehend - why is a Phoenix much cheaper than a similarly sized Steingraeber?

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet :-)

Phoenix is mostly constructed in Polen, but with some assembly in England.
Steingraeber is constructed in Germany.

Other than that, the reason is the same as why Steinway is more expensive than most others. Name recognition. Marketing. Perceived value. Some small things that make you want the one more than the other. I think all German manufacturers make wonderful pianos and in theory, they should cost about the same. They all sound different. They all have their strong suits. In the end, that is why you should try as many pianos as possible, as you are more likely to find something that meets your requirements functionally, as well as financially.



Phoenix is now having the assembly done in Germany at Steingraeber as opposed to Poland... Of course like pianos new or restored you will want to go over it with a "fine tooth comb" with a technician for any defects or imperfections.




Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: awesome10] #2858616
06/14/19 05:56 PM
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I was looking for a Shigeru , and seem to have found one which fits into the budget. How do Shigeru's compare with the Kawai GX and Yamaha CX, SX and CF ranges? I have tried all makea except for the Shigeru , where I will pay a visit to the store next week.

Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: awesome10] #2858687
06/15/19 12:57 AM
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Shigeru's are comparable to Yamaha's CF lines and better than the SX if we are talking in objective terms like materials used, etc.

Yamaha worst to best = CX, SX, CF

Kaway worst to Best = GX , shigeru

Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: awesome10] #2858695
06/15/19 01:34 AM
06/15/19 01:34 AM
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A map of the different brands in the marketplace can be found here:
https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/a-map-of-the-market-for-new-pianos-ratings/

Be aware that the map can be a bit confusing compared with your own evaluation notes. It is not a A is better than B comparison per se. With the exception of the Fazioli, history seems to play an important role.

The Shigeru Kawai is an awesome line of pianos, and where I live, good value for money amongst high end pianos. I have tried quite a few Shigeru Kawais over the years, mosttly SK3s which seems to be a favourite for many homes, but also the SK5, SK6 and SK7 which might be what you will be looking at.

I have found them to be surprisingly individual in how they sounds, and as always, I favour some more than others. Compared to Yamaha CF and. SX, they come at a surprisingly good value in Norway.

You might want to have a look in this thread, regarding a presentation of the top of the line Shigeru EX:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...higeru-kawai-ex-concert-grand-piano.html

Have you tried the Phoenix yet?

Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: Skjalg] #2858725
06/15/19 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Skjalg
A map of the different brands in the marketplace can be found here:
https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/a-map-of-the-market-for-new-pianos-ratings/

Be aware that the map can be a bit confusing compared with your own evaluation notes. It is not a A is better than B comparison per se. With the exception of the Fazioli, history seems to play an important role.

The Shigeru Kawai is an awesome line of pianos, and where I live, good value for money amongst high end pianos. I have tried quite a few Shigeru Kawais over the years, mosttly SK3s which seems to be a favourite for many homes, but also the SK5, SK6 and SK7 which might be what you will be looking at.

I have found them to be surprisingly individual in how they sounds, and as always, I favour some more than others. Compared to Yamaha CF and. SX, they come at a surprisingly good value in Norway.

You might want to have a look in this thread, regarding a presentation of the top of the line Shigeru EX:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...higeru-kawai-ex-concert-grand-piano.html

Have you tried the Phoenix yet?


Thanks a lot Skjalg. Your insights are proving to be really helpful.

No , I have been unable to try the Phoenix yet , but intend to do so in the near future..

Edit: I was having a discussion with someone regarding C Bechstein Concert pianos and Shigerus. I was told that Bechstein Concerts are slightly more expensive (I can attest to that) but generally have a much better and consistent voice quality and construction. Is there any element of truth in it?


Last edited by awesome10; 06/15/19 04:59 AM.
Re: Choosing a 7ft grand in London [Re: awesome10] #2858808
06/15/19 12:30 PM
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How would a restored Steinway Model D/Bluthner Concert Grand at Sherwood Phoenix suit my needs?

http://www.sherwoodphoenix.co.uk/product-category/pianos/all-used-pianos/page/2/

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