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Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: AssociateX] #2857155
06/10/19 03:27 AM
06/10/19 03:27 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,182
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by AssociateX
I located 1 of my current teachers online and a big reason why I chose him was because he listed prices on his studio web site. I dont mind emailing a teacher to inquire about rates if their web site doesnt list it, but honestly its an extra step I have to deal with when deciding what teacher to choose. When selecting a teacher, I focused primarily on their credentials (wanted someone with at least a BA or B.Music degree from a reputable college/university) followed by performance or musical/academic accomplishments, and location/accessibility, then pricing. So when prices are listed on their web page, I tend to view that teacher more favorably and appreciate the time he or she saved me by giving me the info.

Yet, may I say with some irony and as one that recently has had to employ them, most lawyers do not list their rates on their websites. Your currently firm probably does not, and should you ever some day set up your own practice, you would be unlikely to list your rates on your website, mostly merely because your colleagues and competitors in the legal profession don't.

One might mentally justify this by imagining the legal profession to be some sort of "premium" service. But why shouldn't art also be a premium service, or must "premium" always be reflected by a high price?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2857180
06/10/19 08:00 AM
06/10/19 08:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,579
Finland
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outo Offline
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Joined: Aug 2012
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Finland
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

One might mentally justify this by imagining the legal profession to be some sort of "premium" service. But why shouldn't art also be a premium service, or must "premium" always be reflected by a high price?


How often do people plan to use lawyers weekly for many years? smile

I think knowing what a year of piano lessons will cost you is good to know and for many families it will be a significant amount. Generally every teacher around here who has a website will have they terms and pricing listed as well. I think it is a good practice even if the price would not be a deal breaker for me personally.

Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: outo] #2857185
06/10/19 08:21 AM
06/10/19 08:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,182
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

One might mentally justify this by imagining the legal profession to be some sort of "premium" service. But why shouldn't art also be a premium service, or must "premium" always be reflected by a high price?


How often do people plan to use lawyers weekly for many years? smile

I think knowing what a year of piano lessons will cost you is good to know and for many families it will be a significant amount. Generally every teacher around here who has a website will have they terms and pricing listed as well. I think it is a good practice even if the price would not be a deal breaker for me personally.

But do the lawyers in Finland list their rates on their websites?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: Andamento] #2857187
06/10/19 08:56 AM
06/10/19 08:56 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 136
Canada
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I do not post my fees on my website, and do not see a problem with this. There's a lot of info about my studio on the site, so I'm assuming that students who contact me are interested based on that. Once they make contact, I send them the fee schedule and arrange a meeting.
I also don't mind being on the other side, having to ask business people for more info on their fees because I like to do research and make an informed decision. I'm not wealthy, but I would be willing to pay more for things like professionalism, location, personal connection, etc.
I would rather prospective students to see the value in what I'm offering rather than just the $$. And if the price doesn't work for them, they are free to seek out another teacher who meets their needs.


Private piano teacher
B. Mus., M.Mus. (piano performance & pedagogy).
Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2857216
06/10/19 11:01 AM
06/10/19 11:01 AM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,579
Finland
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outo Offline
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Finland
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

One might mentally justify this by imagining the legal profession to be some sort of "premium" service. But why shouldn't art also be a premium service, or must "premium" always be reflected by a high price?


How often do people plan to use lawyers weekly for many years? smile

I think knowing what a year of piano lessons will cost you is good to know and for many families it will be a significant amount. Generally every teacher around here who has a website will have they terms and pricing listed as well. I think it is a good practice even if the price would not be a deal breaker for me personally.

But do the lawyers in Finland list their rates on their websites?


My point was that price is far less relevant when you need a lawyer. I never needed one so I don't know the answer to your question.

Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2857235
06/10/19 12:13 PM
06/10/19 12:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 178
Long Island, NY
AssociateX Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by AssociateX
I located 1 of my current teachers online and a big reason why I chose him was because he listed prices on his studio web site. I dont mind emailing a teacher to inquire about rates if their web site doesnt list it, but honestly its an extra step I have to deal with when deciding what teacher to choose. When selecting a teacher, I focused primarily on their credentials (wanted someone with at least a BA or B.Music degree from a reputable college/university) followed by performance or musical/academic accomplishments, and location/accessibility, then pricing. So when prices are listed on their web page, I tend to view that teacher more favorably and appreciate the time he or she saved me by giving me the info.

Yet, may I say with some irony and as one that recently has had to employ them, most lawyers do not list their rates on their websites. Your currently firm probably does not, and should you ever some day set up your own practice, you would be unlikely to list your rates on your website, mostly merely because your colleagues and competitors in the legal profession don't.

One might mentally justify this by imagining the legal profession to be some sort of "premium" service. But why shouldn't art also be a premium service, or must "premium" always be reflected by a high price?


There is no irony because the 2 situations are not analogous in my opinion. Individuals usually seek lawyers because (1) they need to (they are charged with a criminal or civil offense) or (2) they need a specific service that cant be handled by a layperson (handling a complex estate after death, asset distributions, navigating legal and financial regulations in a corporate setting, etc). Unlike piano, only a small percentage of people shop around for lawyers based on price and it’s usually for minor things like traffic violations and my peers who are sole practitioners do post prices on their web page.

Also, lawyers are bound by ethical standards, and constantly developing statutes and caselaw where expertise demands price changes based on what industry trends are. In piano, particularly classical piano, students and teachers are working from musical texts that havent changed in decades. The 1st movement of the Moonlight Sonata will still be have the same notes in 2035 much like it was in 1895. Given the evolving nature of laws, Supreme Court rulings, Congressional statutory changes...ehhh..not so much, it is ridiculous to compare a lawyer to a piano teacher. Piano teachers in the USA are not required to have degrees from Juilliard or Curtis, or pass licensing exams or win 1st place at an international piano competition (although their value as a teacher probably increases tremendously). As mentioned above, lawyers are not being paid by the week. They also are not responsible for teaching clients the law. They are hired for knowledge, expertise and ability to handle a specific task or situation for the client. They are hired to represent. Piano teachers are hired to convey skills and knowledge on a weekly basis to kids or adults for purely pleasure or entertainment/educational reasons.

. My current fees at my firm are not disclosed because every year we must account for the price increases in court fees, legal printing costs, not to mention, the complexity of issues that arise from constant change, FWIW, I work for an insurance company as staff counsel and we dont “bill” by the hour in the traditional sense because we only have 1 client.

Last edited by AssociateX; 06/10/19 12:19 PM.

~~~~~~~
Finished:
1. Brahms Intermezzo Op 118/2
2. Beethoven Sonata Op 2/1 (1st mvmnt)
Working on:
1. Rachmaninoff Prelude 23/5
2. Schubert Impromptu Op 90/3
3. Misc nocturnes/Liszt Liebestraume 3
*****************
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Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: Andamento] #2857264
06/10/19 02:09 PM
06/10/19 02:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 493
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WeakLeftHand Offline
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When I found my teacher recently, I found her on the internet and my search went something like this:

1. Location was a top priority so I Googled "piano teachers near" my address. Up pops a few options. I click on the one closest to my address, and intended to go down the list that way, but it ended up my first click actually turned out to be THE ONE.
2. I read the teacher's website. It was well-done. Her biography/resume/credentials were stated clearly - very impressive!
3. I also read her blog, which indicated her position with respect to teaching adults. She was very adult friendly - yay!
4. I saw she had a facebook page, so I went over there to check it out. I saw she had regular children's recitals AND regular adult piano parties - yay! This indicated to me that she was an established teacher with many students - always a good sign.
5. Everything looked very professional - website, Facebook, her facilities, trial lesson, online booking/cancellation - nothing to fault, really - just very well-done from a business perspective.
6. She did not list her prices, but by this time, I was thoroughly intrigued and went ahead and reached out to her via email, explaining my background. She responded to me quickly and offered me a trial lesson (not free, which I believe is a good thing), some possible open times in her schedule (which included weekly, biweekly AND occasional spots), and of course, gave me an idea of what her fees would be. They were higher than I had expected or hoping to pay, but given her location and everything else being top-notch so far, I wasn't too phased about it.

So, I guess I didn't mind that the teacher did not post her fees on her website, although perhaps a range of fees (if applicable) could have been helpful. At least that way, the student will know if they fall within the range, because budget is understandably tighter for some people. For me, budget wasn't one of my top priorities (although I didn't want to pay too much above market); rather, it was location, experience teaching adults, scheduling, and credentials that were more important to me.

I think it is more likely that fees are not posted, at least that's what I found during my research. I did notice that a REALLY big local music school posted a range, something like "Our fees start at approximately $30 - 60/hr." or something like that in their FAQs. I guess if your school is ginormous, fielding all those calls about fees start to become overwhelming and not a very good use of the staff's time.

Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: WeakLeftHand] #2857303
06/10/19 04:28 PM
06/10/19 04:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,231
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
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Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
I think it is more likely that fees are not posted, at least that's what I found during my research. I did notice that a REALLY big local music school posted a range, something like "Our fees start at approximately $30 - 60/hr." or something like that in their FAQs. I guess if your school is ginormous, fielding all those calls about fees start to become overwhelming and not a very good use of the staff's time.

A couple of "music schools" also post their rates on the website. It bothers me to no end because one school consistently posts a lower rate than everybody else. Two other schools state their fees as "starting at XX dollars/hour" (Read: If you want lessons with their worst teachers, that's what you'll pay).


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: AZNpiano] #2857307
06/10/19 04:38 PM
06/10/19 04:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,182
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,182
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
It bothers me to no end because one school consistently posts a lower rate than everybody else.

And considering it's a music school and probably keeps XX% of the fee, its teachers are probably.... starving.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2857316
06/10/19 05:12 PM
06/10/19 05:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 493
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WeakLeftHand Offline
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano

A couple of "music schools" also post their rates on the website. It bothers me to no end because one school consistently posts a lower rate than everybody else. Two other schools state their fees as "starting at XX dollars/hour" (Read: If you want lessons with their worst teachers, that's what you'll pay).


It’s also possible that the lowest prices are for teachers who have the least years of experience or have the least amount of paper credentials (i.e., grade 10 RCM instead of ARCT, or no music degrees, higher education, etc.). But, of course, it could also mean a poor quality teacher.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
It bothers me to no end because one school consistently posts a lower rate than everybody else.

And considering it's a music school and probably keeps XX% of the fee, its teachers are probably.... starving.


Or the piano teachers are high school or university students who have attained a pretty high level (say RCM 8+), who are teaching piano part-time, gaining experience, still going to school and still living at home. Piano schools are great for younger, inexperienced teachers to gain practical experience.

I think piano teachers are pretty well-paid where I live. I know I posted $30 - $60/hr in a post above, but realistically, market price is closer to $60 in my area, based on my research.

We have no shortage of highly qualified teachers here so poor teachers will not last.

Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: WeakLeftHand] #2857321
06/10/19 05:32 PM
06/10/19 05:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 712
Vancouver BC
T
The Monkeys Online content
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Vancouver BC
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand

We have no shortage of highly qualified teachers here so poor teachers will not last.


You think so?
You think parents and students can tell which ones are good and which ones are bad?

Piano teacher's business success might not correlate to their teaching capabilities.

Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: The Monkeys] #2857325
06/10/19 05:39 PM
06/10/19 05:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 493
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WeakLeftHand Offline
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Originally Posted by The Monkeys
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand

We have no shortage of highly qualified teachers here so poor teachers will not last.


You think so?
You think parents and students can tell which ones are good and which ones are bad?

Piano teacher's business success might not correlate to their teaching capabilities.


I don’t doubt that there are teachers that are probably not very good...but I’m also not as pessimistic as most here. Most parents and kids I know are very smart consumers.

Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: Andamento] #2857389
06/10/19 10:38 PM
06/10/19 10:38 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 44
Australia
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Mariner Offline
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Australia
I assumed most teachers don’t list prices as they don’t want to scare people away by being expensive. But one of the top teachers in my state doesn’t list prices and is surprisingly the same price as a random teacher from the classifieds.

—-
I really don’t think that most parents and students are smart consumers. Most don’t have a clue about quality because most parents know nothing about music. In my son’s group classes none of the parents i’ve spoken to has ever played an instrument, so how do they know what to expect? McMusic schools are usually taught by anonymous teachers the parents don’t consider looking into; many won’t even tell you the teacher’s last name. It thus makes it easy for schools to hire unqualified and inexperienced teachers with low pay, whilst the profits all go to the investors and head franchise company. It’s exactly the same in the martial arts industry.

Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: WeakLeftHand] #2857399
06/11/19 01:22 AM
06/11/19 01:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,231
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
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Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
We have no shortage of highly qualified teachers here so poor teachers will not last.

This is a very common misconception. Plenty of substandard "piano teachers" are making a fine living, because clients have no idea what constitutes a real piano teacher. Also, if you live in an area with a large number of highly qualified teachers, that also means each great teacher is having fewer and fewer students. Do the math.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: AZNpiano] #2857466
06/11/19 10:14 AM
06/11/19 10:14 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 493
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WeakLeftHand Offline
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
We have no shortage of highly qualified teachers here so poor teachers will not last.

This is a very common misconception. Plenty of substandard "piano teachers" are making a fine living, because clients have no idea what constitutes a real piano teacher. Also, if you live in an area with a large number of highly qualified teachers, that also means each great teacher is having fewer and fewer students. Do the math.


If you say so. As I said, I don't share the general negativity that is pervasive on this subforum. I know friends who are in the industry and they don't either.

I've always wondered when I read these posts about "good" teachers and "bad" teachers. Who is the judge of that?

Last edited by WeakLeftHand; 06/11/19 10:16 AM.
Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: WeakLeftHand] #2857477
06/11/19 10:48 AM
06/11/19 10:48 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,182
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
I've always wondered when I read these posts about "good" teachers and "bad" teachers. Who is the judge of that?

Well obviously - the "good" teachers are the judge! wink


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2857494
06/11/19 11:22 AM
06/11/19 11:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 388
USA
A
Andamento Offline OP
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USA
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
I've always wondered when I read these posts about "good" teachers and "bad" teachers. Who is the judge of that?

Well obviously - the "good" teachers are the judge! wink


The good teachers know they're not perfect, but keep striving to grow. smile

Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: Andamento] #2857496
06/11/19 11:23 AM
06/11/19 11:23 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 388
USA
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Andamento Offline OP
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USA
Thank you for all the commentary and wonderful suggestions. I'm leaning toward still keeping my prices off my website, but have made some site tweaks the last couple of days based on other comments of what you like to see on websites advertising a service.

What a great bunch of contributions here! I appreciate that you explained your reasoning, too. Many thanks. smile

Last edited by Andamento; 06/11/19 11:26 AM.
Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: WeakLeftHand] #2857499
06/11/19 11:30 AM
06/11/19 11:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,231
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
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Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
As I said, I don't share the general negativity that is pervasive on this subforum. I know friends who are in the industry and they don't either.

Well, maybe your friends in the industry live inside a bubble? Just last night I came across two websites of "teachers" in my area. One is still in high school. She advertises lessons for $15/hour, after having taken piano for 9 years. The other "teacher," who is closer to my age, puts her students' performances on her website. The level of playing is pathetic. There's yet a third website that has a picture of students dressed up in Halloween costumes on the main page. I can't find anything about the teacher's education or qualifications.

My reality is that I'm constantly going up against hacks and wannabes. I didn't coin the term Transfer Wrecks for no reason.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Advertising your rates on your website [Re: Andamento] #2857519
06/11/19 01:05 PM
06/11/19 01:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 12,291
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bennevis Offline
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Originally Posted by Andamento
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
I've always wondered when I read these posts about "good" teachers and "bad" teachers. Who is the judge of that?

Well obviously - the "good" teachers are the judge! wink


The good teachers know they're not perfect, but keep striving to grow. smile

Good teachers will be qualified, and will be able to size up their students at a glance (OK, within a few minutes) and are able to embark on a 'teaching plan' that will enable their charge to blossom, even to flower 2hearts - to the best of his/her ability, of course. For beginners, they will use a well-tried and tested series of books that produce results, not some stupid fanciful trendy 'contemporary method book' that leave students confused about what musical notation etc is all about, and what is really important. (I've seen a few of the latter, which I don't doubt will be used as tinder for bonfires in a few years' time.....).

They know how to use gentle persuasion but also know when to be firm. And they know how to help those who have no talent and/or struggling with the basics.

And most of all - they teach all the basics properly, so that if circumstances change (student or teacher moving to another planet), the student will not be found wanting in any musical or technical skill commensurate with his/her level, by any subsequent teacher. And I do mean any musical or technical skill: sight-reading, aural skills, scales & arpeggios, theory, the lot.

Anything less - the 'piano teacher' has no right to call himself/herself a piano teacher and should go look for another job - or else learn how to be a real teacher before subjecting himself/herself on another victim.......

Yes, I do set high standards - but I had four teachers over a decade as a student, none of which I chose myself, yet they all provided me with all the requirements I stipulated above, even though they all differed greatly in personality (and even in sex wink ). And all my fellow piano students under various teachers (there were five peripatetic piano teachers who taught in my high school) similarly blossomed, so I don't think I was just "lucky". All the teachers were suitably qualified with teaching diplomas etc, and knew how to teach.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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