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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
johnstaf #2855033 06/02/19 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
If the latency was greater than what your teacher was used to, it will feel odd. The latency reported is often wrong anyway. If the latency is less, people will probably say the notes come out before they play them. I've seen Daniil Trifonov say this about a concert grand, because the key dip was too shallow.

Ultra low latencies are not necessarily realistic. It can take 3 ms for the sound of some notes on a piano to reach your ears. The latency between playing the note and it sounding varies a lot on a real piano, depending on a number of factors. In a VST, notes may sound immediately when the MIDI message is received, which depends on a lot of things as well.

Playing through monitors, as opposed to headphones, will likely add up to 10 ms, unless they are near field monitors.

A true, properly measured latency of 20 ms is usually very good. However, when your DAW tells you you have 20 ms, you could have a lot more

Very well said! thumb I agree with everything you've said here and I was thinking about responding earlier and am now glad I didn't since you've said it so much more clearly than I could have. wink


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2855040 06/02/19 08:01 PM
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John, I think your numbers are off.

Sound travels through air at just a bit over 1000 feet per sec. So we can say it's 1 msec per foot.

If you sit just a couple of feet in front of the strings in an acoustic upright that adds 2 msec of latency ... in addition to the hammer travel time.
We consider that "normal" because that's the way a piano works.

Note that if you sit just a couple of feet in front of the speakers in a digital piano that, too, adds 2 msec of latency.
So it's a wash

Since everything in a VST setup is extra, unwanted delay ... one can hardly say that the sound is heard too soon.

But note that headphones will "rescue" 2 msec from the latency of a virtual instrument ... by eliminating the 2 msec air gap between you and the speakers.
That's good news for those running a VST on an older, inadequate PC.

But 20 msec is hardly what I consider good. It verges on the annoying.
And 30 msec is unplayable. My fingers break down with that much latency.

I had 28 msec in my early days of virtual instruments ... which prompted me to get a better audio interface ... which dropped me to 18 msec.
Only a faster computer brought me down to a nice 8 msec level.
And an even faster one does 2 msec.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
MacMacMac #2855041 06/02/19 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
And an even faster one does 2 msec.

Would you mind sharing what audio interface is getting things down to the 2 millisecond level. Very interested!


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2855088 06/03/19 12:12 AM
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With the N1X it might also be slightly different compared to normal DPs since it has a grand action. As I understand it, the movement of the hammer would increase the latency similar to that of an acoustic piano.
Interestingly, Pianoteq shows a latency of 1.5ms, while the Steinberg USB driver still shows 12ms. With Garritan CFX it feels like 12ms, with Pianoteq I am not sure if there is any delay, so maybe the 1.5ms is correct.

Last edited by nax; 06/03/19 12:15 AM.
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Tyrone Slothrop #2855474 06/04/19 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by David B
I look forward to playing the N1X everyday and I'm disappointed when it's time to go to work.

I didn't realize it was such a chore to play my Roland FP30 until I'm finding now that I am just enjoying playing the N1X and am playing it about twice as much as I did before, and with alacrity! thumb

It does make such a difference! My piano technician said that you shouldn't have to think extra when playing - if you want it to be pianissimo, it should respond without you having to do extra work. I think it's easy to focus on the sound or the feel of the action apart from the sound and not recognize that the responsiveness is a thing as well. And the responsiveness makes all the difference. laugh


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
nax #2855505 06/04/19 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by nax
With the N1X it might also be slightly different compared to normal DPs since it has a grand action. As I understand it, the movement of the hammer would increase the latency similar to that of an acoustic piano.


I recall seeing a graph from a study showing that playing at different velocities resulted in different latency on an acoustic action (pp had slightly more latency, ff resulted in strikes before the key hits the bottom of the keybed). I'll try to find it...

Originally Posted by nax
Interestingly, Pianoteq shows a latency of 1.5ms, while the Steinberg USB driver still shows 12ms. With Garritan CFX it feels like 12ms, with Pianoteq I am not sure if there is any delay, so maybe the 1.5ms is correct.


These differences probably depend on what what the program has visibility into. I would imagine that Pianoteq can't see the latency of the data processing delivery from the DP, or likely the latency in the USB interface or the audio interface output. It's just measuring the latency from when Pianoteq receives the midi/data signal and when Pianoteq outputs the final audio signal. The USB driver can see when the data first enters the PC, possibly to when it returns an audio stream to the output device. So PT would certainly show a much lower latency than a USB driver, but it's because they're measuring different things.

It's hard to measure total latency, but I like Mac's method of calibrating against the DP's native output (essentially stipulating it as zero) and measuring the VST's output time against it, using one stereo channel from each and comparing the L/R waveforms. That's a true end to end measurement (though it may vary depending on how "instant" your particular DP actually is).


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Morodiene #2855550 06/04/19 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
I think it's easy to focus on the sound or the feel of the action apart from the sound and not recognize that the responsiveness is a thing as well. And the responsiveness makes all the difference. laugh


Exactly. Actions can be very realistic in one way or another, but if the responsiveness isn't good, it doesn't really matter what it does well.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Gombessa #2855627 06/05/19 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

These differences probably depend on what what the program has visibility into. I would imagine that Pianoteq can't see the latency of the data processing delivery from the DP, or likely the latency in the USB interface or the audio interface output. It's just measuring the latency from when Pianoteq receives the midi/data signal and when Pianoteq outputs the final audio signal. The USB driver can see when the data first enters the PC, possibly to when it returns an audio stream to the output device. So PT would certainly show a much lower latency than a USB driver, but it's because they're measuring different things.

Thanks for pointing that out. I also realized that the 1.5ms is probably only the latency for processing the data after using Kontakt Player for another VST, which shows latency components separately.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2856036 06/06/19 10:18 AM
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Did anyone manage to use the Smart Pianist App with the N1X?

First I thought it will connect via Bluetooth, but then it did not find the N1X (but I could play audio files from my phone through the N1X speakers).
Then I tried to connect with USB cable and the N1X showed up in the instrument list of the Smpart Pianist App. But when I click on it, it says something like "this instrument is not supported". With other DPs it was suggested to update the firmware, but since the N1X is so new I can't image this is the problem. I also don't find any firmware for the N1X on the Yamaha website.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
nax #2856048 06/06/19 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by nax
Did anyone manage to use the Smart Pianist App with the N1X?

Yep.

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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2856068 06/06/19 11:10 AM
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Ok, thanks for the instructions. :P
So you are using a wireless adapter for the connection? Did you try out a cable connection? Since the App shows the N1X, but says it is not suppoerted, I don't think it has to do with the connection type, but who knows.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
nax #2856072 06/06/19 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by nax
Ok, thanks for the instructions. :P
So you are using a wireless adapter for the connection?

Oh. You wanted instructions! laugh

I had my dealer include a UD-WL01 when I bought the N1X since I knew I would want to use the Smart Pianist app - so yes, wireless connection. It's a bit of a pain to set up though since it can only be set up using WPS, and that necessitated a long call to tech support for my ISP to get WPS working correctly on my cable modem/router.

Originally Posted by nax
Did you try out a cable connection? Since the App shows the N1X, but says it is not suppoerted, I don't think it has to do with the connection type, but who knows.

Yes, my dealer forgot to send the UD-WL01 with the piano and had to mail it to me afterwards. While I was waiting for it, I used a standard USB-C to USB-A cable to connect my iPad Pro to the N1X. I could not get it to work. So I waited until he UD-WL01 arrived and got it to work that way. It's possible my cable was defective in some way, although it does work to charge my iPad Pro. It's also possible I had "user error" with the cable.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Tyrone Slothrop #2856085 06/06/19 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
It's a bit of a pain to set up though since it can only be set up using WPS, and that necessitated a long call to tech support for my ISP to get WPS working correctly on my cable modem/router.


It can also be used as a wifi connection. Plug the adaptor in, N1Xxxxxxx should show up in the wifi setting on the iPad (select it), then open the smart pianist app and select "instrument" down at the bottom. N1Xxxxxxxx should show up (select it) and you'll have a wifi connection.

God Bless,
David


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2856090 06/06/19 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
It's a bit of a pain to set up though since it can only be set up using WPS, and that necessitated a long call to tech support for my ISP to get WPS working correctly on my cable modem/router.


It can also be used as a wifi connection. Plug the adaptor in, N1Xxxxxxx should show up in the wifi setting on the iPad (select it), then open the smart pianist app and select "instrument" down at the bottom. N1Xxxxxxxx should show up (select it) and you'll have a wifi connection.

God Bless,
David

Yeah, I tried this, but then my iPad is not connected to the Internet which makes it useless for me. With a WPS setup, at least my iPad is always connected to the piano 24x7 (I leave the piano on all the time to preserve my reverb settings) and also the Internet. It just sits on my piano and I never have to do anything except switch to the app.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Tyrone Slothrop #2856094 06/06/19 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Yeah, I tried this, but then my iPad is not connected to the Internet which makes it useless for me. With a WPS setup, at least my iPad is always connected to the piano 24x7 (I leave the piano on all the time to preserve my reverb settings) and also the Internet. It just sits on my piano and I never have to do anything except switch to the app.


I would prefer the WPS setup myself, but I couldn't get it to work with my modem. frown


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2856096 06/06/19 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Yeah, I tried this, but then my iPad is not connected to the Internet which makes it useless for me. With a WPS setup, at least my iPad is always connected to the piano 24x7 (I leave the piano on all the time to preserve my reverb settings) and also the Internet. It just sits on my piano and I never have to do anything except switch to the app.


I would prefer the WPS setup myself, but I couldn't get it to work with my modem. frown

I couldn't either! I found out that WPS is normally turned off on the modem for my ISP (Comcast) for security reasons, but when I called the ISP's tech support number, over the phone, a technician walked me through the process of temporarily turning it on for the modem/router just long enough that I was able to set up the UD-WL01. thumb

Consider doing the same and calling your ISP and asking for them to help you activate WPS temporarily. Unless you have an ancient modem/router, it's very possible your modem/router does support WPS, but it's just turned off for similar security reasons that Comcast turned it off on mine.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Tyrone Slothrop #2856108 06/06/19 01:09 PM
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Tyrone, I think you had mentioned in a previous post somewhere that you use other apps in conjunction with your DP. I am thinking of Pianoteq but some sort of teaching app. What other apps do you connect to your N1X with and how does it work for you?

Thanks.

(Yes, I am being too lazy to go back through all of the posts to find it. smile )


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Peddler100 #2856111 06/06/19 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by oneilt130
Tyrone, I think you had mentioned in a previous post somewhere that you use other apps in conjunction with your DP. I am thinking of Pianoteq but some sort of teaching app. What other apps do you connect to your N1X with and how does it work for you?

Thanks.

(Yes, I am being too lazy to go back through all of the posts to find it. smile )

The only one I use which actually connects to my DP is Piano Marvel (PM). I'm beyond the built-in lessons now, but the thing that is really cool with it is the ability to upload your own scores and use the system to learn them (at what I think is an accelerated rate). That's why I still subscribe.

Here's a video of Jordan, a recent conservatory grad in piano performance, learning a piece - Beethoven’s Sonata Op. 10, No. 2 in F Major - from scratch. He had never used PM before this.



Also, there is a PM thread on the front page of the ABF forum.

Besides PM, there are other apps I "use with my piano," but none of the others actually connect to my piano via MIDI.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2856117 06/06/19 01:54 PM
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Ok, thanks a lot for sharing your experience. smile
Still strange that the N1X would appear in the app when using the USB cable, but saying it was not supported. Maybe it is also an issue with the phone. I will try some alternatives.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
nax #2856125 06/06/19 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by nax
Ok, thanks a lot for sharing your experience. smile
Still strange that the N1X would appear in the app when using the USB cable, but saying it was not supported. Maybe it is also an issue with the phone. I will try some alternatives.

I'll try again later tonight with my cable and see if it even lists the piano as a possible instrument when using the cable. Not hopeful though. It didn't work last time with the cable.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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