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Re: VSL Steinway D - released
Tyrone Slothrop #2855734 06/05/19 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by angmyu
Lending their names is for revenue, and it is more reasonable to think that modeling would have been more appropriate for revenue than sampling that record Steinway's sound directly.

para. 33.


OK, so what. Where is the rationale that vsl d is inferior to pianoteq

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Re: VSL Steinway D - released
MacMacMac #2855743 06/05/19 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Well, Steinway may not wish to lend their name to an inferior product ... but they did. It's called Pianoteq. smile
Perhaps they've made a mistake?


I've seen too many cases support as sponsors for profit, even if they're not the best products(or firms) in the industry. On the other hand, even if a product is superior, there is cases not possible to be supported because of legal reasons or something other than quality of sound.

I think Pianoteq is a pretty good product, and Steinway's sponsorship proves that it's not a bad product. But that's a great logical error and impudence to link what is not supported as a sponsor to the inferiority of the product.

Even assuming Steinway's sponsorship officer picked Pianoteq as the best, it does not constitute an absolute value criterion for the product. Music is a matter of taste and in the end its value depends on the judgment of the artists and the listeners who are playing VSTs.

Re: VSL Steinway D - released
MacMacMac #2855755 06/05/19 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Well, Steinway may not wish to lend their name to an inferior product ... but they did. It's called Pianoteq. smile
Perhaps they've made a mistake?
Originally Posted by angmyu
Even assuming Steinway's sponsorship officer picked Pianoteq as the best, it does not constitute an absolute value criterion for the product. Music is a matter of taste and in the end its value depends on the judgment of the artists and the listeners who are playing VSTs.

I am absolutely not saying Pianoteq is the best product. I've seen on here the overwhelming influence of personal preference. I've seen that half the forum members like Pianoteq and half hate it. I am simply saying that certain people at Steinway apparently believed/believe it's a good enough product to rent its brand to. That's all.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: VSL Steinway D - released
Tyrone Slothrop #2855773 06/05/19 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Because Steinway agrees Pianoteq sounds better and represents their brand better. (no smiley here)


That's conjecture.


Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I am simply saying that certain people at Steinway apparently believed/believe it's a good enough product to rent its brand to. That's all.


That's a fact.

God Bless,
David


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Re: VSL Steinway D - released
angmyu #2855792 06/05/19 01:07 PM
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Pianoteq has always sounded slightly fake and unconvincing. And still does.

They had already got models of the B and D, (before they got Steinway logo licensing) and probably done their best to improve their modelling algorithms but have still never achieved totally convincing piano tone, especially in the low notes, so the sales & marketing people at Modartt were probably scratching their heads thinking... "What else can we do to persuade people to purchase this, especially buyers who might be just on the fence, not quite convinced, but just need that final little push / incentive to believe it's a worthwhile investment of their money and actually buy this software?"

Ideally they would improve the modelling algorithm so it sounds much more realistic, but obviously they don't know how to do that, so instead, Modartt marketing department had the brilliant idea - they'd just pay the substantial licence fee to Steinway & Sons so that they are allowed to use Steinway's trademark brand name and company logo artwork in the software's graphics.
This alone has been probably enough to tempt some potential buyers, who were on the fence, to finally make this purchase. They'll now be happy to purchase something they erroneously believe is "officially endorsed" by Steinway, or believe this new software iteration must be substantially closer to sounding like a real Steinway than any of the previous Pianoteq versions were, hence it has finally earned its stripes, and is deemed "worthy" of the famous brandname logo. It's utter marketing bull, but great idea by Modartt obviously.
In truth, the latest model algorithm is 99.9% identical to what it was before and it sounds almost no different. In truth, Pianoteq still sounds fake and unconvincing, just as before, BUT the Steinway logo holds enough pianophile desirable implied value that Modartt will now sell quite a few more copies to the pianophiles who buy VSTs and their newfound increase in sales profits should far offset whatever they've spent on this licence, proving that their marketing people made a good decision to use this.

Re: VSL Steinway D - released
angmyu #2855844 06/05/19 04:11 PM
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The way I see it, Modartt makes a Steinway D that doesn't quite sound like the real thing - so they are willing to pay nice money to Steinway to corroborate the illusion.

VSL, on the other hand, doesn't need to spend money for sponsorship since their piano IS a Steinway already.
They don't need to prove anything in this respect, everybody knows it's a Steinway D.

I have nothing against Pianoteq (I own the Pro version and I've used it for a long time, before Garritan and then VSL) but this seems to me the most probable explanation.


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Re: VSL Steinway D - released
Erard #2855867 06/05/19 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Erard
The way I see it, Modartt makes a Steinway D that doesn't quite sound like the real thing - so they are willing to pay nice money to Steinway to corroborate the illusion.

VSL, on the other hand, doesn't need to spend money for sponsorship since their piano IS a Steinway already.
They don't need to prove anything in this respect, everybody knows it's a Steinway D.

I have nothing against Pianoteq (I own the Pro version and I've used it for a long time, before Garritan and then VSL) but this seems to me the most probable explanation.


Yes, I genuinely think this is the most likely scenario. Clearly if a sampled VST is from a known Steinway piano, people will believe it is a Steinway and convinced that it sounds like a Steinway, even if the sampling itself is less than optimal (as is the case for some of the sampled Steinway VSTs). However, if the Pianoteq Steinway D did not come with the branding, would people have even realised it was supposed to be a Steinway? It sounds a *bit* like one, but it's far from certain. Even if the instrument was clearly implied to be a Steinway D while somehow avoiding a lawsuit, many people would still take the view that this was just wishful thinking on the part of the developer's. The Steinway branding actually matters for Pianoteq in the way that it doesn't nearly as much for sampled VSTs.


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Re: VSL Steinway D - released
Tyrone Slothrop #2856010 06/06/19 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
[quote=MacMacMac]
I am simply saying that certain people at Steinway apparently believed/believe it's a good enough product to rent its brand to. That's all.


Licensing is about who pays the most for the license and those who willing to pay the licensing fees.

Re: VSL Steinway D - released
KL NY #2856018 06/06/19 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by KL NY
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I am simply saying that certain people at Steinway apparently believed/believe it's a good enough product to rent its brand to. That's all.
Licensing is about who pays the most for the license and those who willing to pay the licensing fees.

Well, that's not all there is to it though (see para. 33 here).


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: VSL Steinway D - released
angmyu #2856021 06/06/19 09:37 AM
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You've quoted the wrong person ...
Originally Posted by KL NY
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I am simply saying that certain people at Steinway apparently believed/believe it's a good enough product to rent its brand to. That's all.
I do not pretend to know what people at Steinway say, do, or think.
That was the whole point of my earlier post: "... it's interesting how people claim to know what other people (or companies) think."

Re: VSL Steinway D - released
MacMacMac #2856022 06/06/19 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You've quoted the wrong person ...
Originally Posted by KL NY
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I am simply saying that certain people at Steinway apparently believed/believe it's a good enough product to rent its brand to. That's all.
I do not pretend to know what people at Steinway say, do, or think.
That was the whole point of my earlier post: "... it's interesting how people claim to know what other people (or companies) think."


Haha .. confusing quote of quote.

Re: VSL Steinway D - released
angmyu #2856559 06/08/19 02:08 AM
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@slobajudge thank you for the information. Too bad it's not a separate product, would probably have been a nice entry level choice for a low price, similar to the Bechstein Digital Essentials or something.

Regarding the PIanoteq and licensing thing, the worst thing about not being able to use the Steinway name in any way is that people aren't going to find out what piano you sampled if you can't tell them. Imagine you are comparing products and explicitly want a sampled Steinway. You're gonna have to go out of your way to get that information, in forums, or ask the developers, etc.. It would be much nicer if it could just say so on the product page. So being able to use the name is a significant competitive advantage.

Re: VSL Steinway D - released
Grazilerimba #2856633 06/08/19 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Grazilerimba
Regarding the PIanoteq and licensing thing, the worst thing about not being able to use the Steinway name in any way is that people aren't going to find out what piano you sampled if you can't tell them. Imagine you are comparing products and explicitly want a sampled Steinway. You're gonna have to go out of your way to get that information, in forums, or ask the developers, etc.. It would be much nicer if it could just say so on the product page. So being able to use the name is a significant competitive advantage.

Why, you don't think the term "Concert D" immediately evokes the image of a Steinway model D? laugh


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: VSL Steinway D - released
angmyu #2856637 06/08/19 09:43 AM
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And one can read https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Synchron_Package/Concert_D

The description is explicit about the Steinway & Sons D-274, Hamburg Model.


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Re: VSL Steinway D - released
angmyu #2856639 06/08/19 09:48 AM
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This one had better be REALLY good.
It sells for 285 EUR. That's $323 USD.
That's twice the price of most virtual piano packages.

Re: VSL Steinway D - released
MacMacMac #2856653 06/08/19 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
This one had better be REALLY good.
It sells for 285 EUR. That's $323 USD.
That's twice the price of most virtual piano packages.


Yes it is REALLY good. The subtle shading of tone that's possible with the VSL pianos is phenomenal.

Re: VSL Steinway D - released
MacMacMac #2856666 06/08/19 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
This one had better be REALLY good.
It sells for 285 EUR. That's $323 USD.
That's twice the price of most virtual piano packages.

Wrong.

One also needs to purchase a "safety dongle" and should subscribe to annual "protection" in case the safety dongle fails or disappears.

Re: VSL Steinway D - released
newer player #2856668 06/08/19 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by newer player
One also needs to purchase a "safety dongle" and should subscribe to annual "protection" in case the safety dongle fails or disappears.

Well, you want to be super duper safe, don't you?


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: VSL Steinway D - released
Tyrone Slothrop #2856672 06/08/19 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Well, you want to be super duper safe, don't you?

Ironically, it is to protect VSL only. I suppose customer pays for protection scheme bundled or unbundled, so one could argue this is transparent.

Regardless, it is another regressive tax as the "protection money" is the same for the poor musician using just one basic VI as it is for the wealthy composer with $5k in VIs.

Re: VSL Steinway D - released
newer player #2856677 06/08/19 11:28 AM
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I never bought into the dongle thing. There are no dongles in this home.
Originally Posted by newer player
One also needs to purchase a "safety dongle" and should subscribe to annual "protection" in case the safety dongle fails or disappears.
But that's the price of marriage, eh? smile

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