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Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
CyberGene #2855134 06/03/19 08:42 AM
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CyberGene --> I've already contacted my lawyers ...

:--)

Last edited by NightTrain77; 06/03/19 08:43 AM.

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Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
NightTrain77 #2855145 06/03/19 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by NightTrain77
CyberGene --> I've already contacted my lawyers ...

:--)

Fifth amendment! Fifth amendment!

P.S. Oops, sorry, wrong amendment laugh That was something else... Let me seek Wikipedia which amendment was free speech laugh

P.P.S. First!

Last edited by CyberGene; 06/03/19 09:35 AM.

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Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
AlexBltn #2855151 06/03/19 10:06 AM
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I have seen the future and the ES9 will be....




very good.

Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
CyberGene #2855196 06/03/19 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by NightTrain77
CyberGene --> I've already contacted my lawyers ...

:--)

Fifth amendment! Fifth amendment!

P.S. Oops, sorry, wrong amendment laugh That was something else... Let me seek Wikipedia which amendment was free speech laugh

P.P.S. First!

Your were probably thinking of this: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=plead%20the%20fifth

Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
AlexBltn #2903981 10/24/19 09:18 AM
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I was test-driving the ES8 and some other competition lately in quest of a portable digital piano with good key action and built-in speakers. I must say I liked the ES8 a lot. Also the FP-90, while being used to my acoustic upright I didn't like the key action on the cheaper models or any Yamaha/Casio within range. I did like one used Yamaha ac.upright U1+silent more, but my upright just isn't going away, space is an issue, and price was *3 from *2 of what I was expecting for this in the first place.

I guess to keep up with the competition, for an ES8 successor certain features would come handy, like bluetooth, more voices, and some other details readily found in the more recent Kawai furniture CN39 that seems quite comparably priced sans pedals&stand.

One peculiar thing was that side-by-side the CN39 key action seemed to be a little bit better to me, in particular less nervously bouncy upon key release, maybe also a bit nicer (more matte) white key surface. But per Kawai official response, they share the very same RHIII action. So I'm curious if the recipe has been sightly altered, or maybe the difference was just because the particular CN39 was new and the ES8 not. Could somebody with access to both comment on this (there is no useful shop nearby)?

Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
AlexBltn #2904120 10/24/19 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexBltn
Hello, how are you? smile

June, 2012
New model ES7. Kawai America is pleased to unveil the latest generation of its popular ES Series portable digital pianos.


August, 2015
ES8 Portable Digital Piano announced by Kawai Japan.


Do you expect/accept that this year ES8's successor could be announced?

If so (or even if not so) what could we expect to see in it? Let's take the most important factors: action and sound. ES8 brought the new keyboard action: Responsive Hammer III (ES7: RHII). And new sound source: Harmonic Imaging XL (ES7: Progressive Harmonic Imaging). So, both keyboard and sound have got improvements.

And here I see an interesting thing: RHIII action is still Kawai's top plastic/folded action (which doesn't mean that improvements aren't necessary of course). So how could it be improved?
1) New wooden Grand Feel Compact action?
2) New type of plastic/folded action?
There's one more, the worst option: just to leave it as it is (RHIII).

And there's another interesting thing. Sound. ES8 already had samples of SK-EX Concert and medium-sized SK-5 Studio grand pianos, which just recently appeared in MP7SE/MP11SE.

Similar story was before: Kawai announced MP7/MP11 with only one main Kawai EX sampled grand piano tone, and MP7 had RHII action. And after some period of time they announced ES8, which in addition to EX had two new piano samples (SK-EX, SK-5), plus new RHIII action, which made this offer even more interesting for many pianists than "more professional" MP7.

So here comes the question: will Kawai add the new SK-EX Rendering piano sound engine with multi-channel sampling and resonance modelling in ES8's successor? If no, and if keyboard also won't be upgraded, then there's no sense for such a successor. That's why this question is quite interesting for me. What could be improved? And can we even expect "ES9" this year?

Do you have some thoughts about ES8's successor? Would be interesting to read.


Some must improvements include:

1) More powerful higher quality speakers.
2) Action reliability improvements: turn a great action into a great reliable action by improving component design to overcome inherent weakness.
3) Add some improvements to the action quality, sound quality and pedals to maintain pressure on Yamaha & Roland. Maybe some binaural headphone tech.?
4) Make some aesthetic improvements / changes to freshen up the image and give the Kawai ES9 a unique look.

Kawai have a great instrument, so they need to keep innovating as well as cover some of their perceived weaknesses, even making a point of marketing the improvement in action reliability. I'd say try to get a 2:1 ratio of innovation vs weakness improvement.

I think there is scope for lots of improvement in all offering in the portable piano market, but getting the package right is important: sometimes that means waiting on R&D to reach the next step.

KR,

Doug.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
Doug M. #2952638 02/28/20 03:26 PM
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Now it's 2020 and still don't hear any news about the ES9. Such a dilemma if I should just get a P515 (because it's newer), or just wait for ES9 (since ES8 is old...)

Do you guys think the new ES will be cheaper or more expensive than ES8? According the Kawai's past history


Switched from a frustrated electone to satisfied piano player because there's no lack of music sheet for piano.
Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
AlexBltn #2952641 02/28/20 03:51 PM
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Newer doesn't mean better and it may well be that the ES8 price has dropped throughout the years and a hypothetical ES9 will be more expensive.

Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
AlexBltn #2952646 02/28/20 04:08 PM
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ES 8 prices have come down in last year, at least as far as I have observed. I would assume the successor will be slightly more expensive, to match previous prices for the segment, but I’m just guessing. I’m sure they consider the pricing of competitors’ products.

If you’re going to keep it for a while, I’d not consider the model age quite as much, rather my own preference for touch, tone, appearance, and price.


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Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
terminaldegree #2952674 02/28/20 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
ES 8 prices have come down in last year, at least as far as I have observed. I would assume the successor will be slightly more expensive, to match previous prices for the segment, but I’m just guessing. I’m sure they consider the pricing of competitors’ products.

If you’re going to keep it for a while, I’d not consider the model age quite as much, rather my own preference for touch, tone, appearance, and price.


ES8 prices have come down to compete directly with the Yamaha P-515. In the US, with just a small effort with Google at this moment, you can find an ES8 for 20% off the current online price of $1649. You could even find a better deal if you do a little more research. I think it's well worth the effort, as I quite enjoy my ES8, and my opinion, the ES8 is still quite competitive with the P-515.

Last edited by DSC; 02/28/20 05:54 PM.
Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
AlexBltn #2952753 02/28/20 09:26 PM
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IMO the P-515 really moved the market. The P-255 was a bit of an inbetweener--a middling upgrade to the P-115 with few new features and just a better action. With the P-515, Yamaha introduced features and sounds from their higher end DPs, gave it a premium action, and kept the street price close to the P-255 (~$1300). This really undercut the "premium slab + speaker DP" segment that the FP-90 and ES8 sat comfortably in ($1600-1800).

Another clear example of how competition ultimately helps the consumer.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
Gombessa #2952837 02/29/20 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
[...]Another clear example of how competition ultimately helps the consumer.
Yes, and more competition means faster advances in technology. I think DP technology advances are too slow compared with advances in computers, smartphones, etc...

Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
AlexBltn #2952854 02/29/20 08:31 AM
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Computers to some degree, smartphones to a high degree, etc... to depends-on degree are made to be disposable in a short time frame and are produced in massive amounts. They usually have a short development cycle.

DPs are in a certain category of embedded systems that are meant to be produced for years and have a longer development cycle. So much so that Intel (for example) pick some of their mainstream processors (that usually are available for a few months and are further replaced with other similar or better version) and reclassify them as embedded/long term availability (long meaning 7 years the last time I checked). This happens becaused they are used in products that need to be stable and that often undergo extensive certification process that take longer than these mainstream versions are available in the market.

If Kawai, Yamaha, Roland etc. used the last-most-advanced-technology-available-in-the-last-six-months in their products, they would need to make production changes on a daily basis (literally) because of obsolescence. That would require a huge team to keep up. Your ES9 would cost ten times as much because of that and risk not being as reliable, serviceable etc. Not to mention affordable.

99.999% of the users do not need the latest technology. Apple has successfully made their users think otherwise. Good for them (Apple, I mean).


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
AlexBltn #2952876 02/29/20 10:01 AM
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You don't need to use the latest new blazing-fast technology developed in late 2019, but I don't see, for example, why you could not increase the storage memory in the GB range, instead of still staying in the MB range when you pay thousands of dollars for a medium-range DP. Do you know that many current low/middle range DPs still use 32MB or 64MB of flash rom for ALL the piano samples? The very top models (> $4000) only from a few years begin to have around 1GB...

I think the DP market is much smaller and niche compared with other markets (like the smartphone market), so manufacturers are not so pushed to improve faster and/or to use much better hardware. Improving faster requires more costs for research, test and development. Less competition + smaller niche market => slower improvements (and the prices for the end user remain higher than they could be).

I have a piano VST from 10+ years ago. IMHO it sounds better than any current top-model DP internal engine.

Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
AlexBltn #2953007 02/29/20 04:36 PM
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MP, I think it is related to return of investiment. How many users will really bother? Yes, most of us in PW forum are picky but I bet 99% of the DP buyers are satisfied with their choices and do not conciously bother with sound minutiae, loops, pivot points etc. For those 1% that do, there are options (VSTs). So everybody is happy. smile


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
Kyosho #2953194 03/01/20 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Kyosho
Now it's 2020 and still don't hear any news about the ES9. Such a dilemma if I should just get a P515 (because it's newer), or just wait for ES9 (since ES8 is old...)

Do you guys think the new ES will be cheaper or more expensive than ES8? According the Kawai's past history


I think it is safe to guess that it will be more expensive wink And that the ES8 is still at or near the top of the class (well depends on subjective preferences and features one finds essential).
A carbon fiber frame for less weight would be great...

Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
_sem_ #2953196 03/01/20 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by _sem_
A carbon fiber frame for less weight would be great...

If it's just a frame and we won't see carbon fiber outside, it's a good idea. But I wouldn't touch the metal casing which looks and feels fantastic. But it's a home piano, where weight is not the main factor.

What I would like to see is a completely new sound engine. Maybe Kawai should join 'modelling' race, or follow Korg way and implement multigigabyte sample library. If we find something like Kawai EX Pro VST from Acoustisamples inside, it would be a hit. Chances for such revolution are low, but still why not to have dreams smile

Last edited by AlphaBravoCharlie; 03/01/20 05:14 AM. Reason: misunderstood message I was quoting

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Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
_sem_ #2953204 03/01/20 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by _sem_
A carbon fiber frame for less weight would be great...


I already has one. wink

ES8 weight is mostly due to the steel cabinet, the current "carbon fiber" frame must weight around 2kg. The keybed itself must be responsible for half the weight. At least that was my perception when I opened it up for maintenance.


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
AlexBltn #2953259 03/01/20 12:02 PM
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> But it's a home piano, where weight is not the main factor.

Well, slabs are meant to be portable, otherwise one could get a furniture. And it appears that all DPs in the 12-15kg category are also budget class with notably inferior key action (I mean like ES110, FP30, P125, PX-S1000/3000). The ES8 and FP90 have better actions, but are no longer as portable. Yes I'm aware the key action alone is a big contributor (and makes gets the MP11SE over 30kg, sans speakers).

Re: Kawai ES9? Thoughts about ES8's successor
AlexBltn #2953551 03/02/20 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by DSC
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
ES 8 prices have come down in last year, at least as far as I have observed. I would assume the successor will be slightly more expensive, to match previous prices for the segment, but I’m just guessing. I’m sure they consider the pricing of competitors’ products.

If you’re going to keep it for a while, I’d not consider the model age quite as much, rather my own preference for touch, tone, appearance, and price.


ES8 prices have come down to compete directly with the Yamaha P-515. In the US, with just a small effort with Google at this moment, you can find an ES8 for 20% off the current online price of $1649. You could even find a better deal if you do a little more research. I think it's well worth the effort, as I quite enjoy my ES8, and my opinion, the ES8 is still quite competitive with the P-515.

Is there any way you can tune the ES8 piano sound brighter like the CFX and make it sound dark like the borsendofer?


Switched from a frustrated electone to satisfied piano player because there's no lack of music sheet for piano.
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