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Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2854243
05/31/19 01:14 PM
05/31/19 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by stamkorg
For example, I play with Pianoteq and I never set the dynamic range higher than 38-39. This value gives me a realistic sensation. I have read some post from users that set the dynamics to 50 or even more... That gives a better control on the software but it's totally artificial.

This is a strong assertion. Pianoteq is trying to accurately model a piano. What leads you to believe that, for example, 100 on Pianoteq is artificial and not like an ffff note would be on the actual acoustical instrument being modeled? Because if the model is inaccurate above 39, then I think this is a huge flaw in Pianoteq.

I believe the Pianoteq engineers, having access to the specific instrument they are creating the model for, tried to create a model that accurately reflected the particular instrument they are modeling whether at a level of 1, 38, 50, or 100. I'd like to hear why you think the model is less accurate above 39, than it is below.



Ok, I haven't played a lot of acoustics, but at least on mine and my teacher's and some other I tried, I found that they are more difficult to control than my DP.
As for the Dymanic vaue in Pianoteq, you can see that most of the factory player/prelude/home presets have a value around 40.
Don't forget that this value is also in interaction with the kb sensitivity.
At least, in my setup, with a Roland HP-507 which has a PHA-III kb, the sensitivity at 45 (a little lighter than the factory value) on the Roland and the Dynamic at 39 on Pianoteq, gives me something that I can qualify as accurate.

Last edited by stamkorg; 05/31/19 01:15 PM.
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Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Morten Olsson] #2854249
05/31/19 01:32 PM
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I can easily achieve 127 if I want that loudest sound, and tone. Although that is still unachievable on a digital - on an acoustic grand, the thing virtually explodes when you hammer those low notes in a crescendo. NO digital or software piano does that, to my knowledge.
However, anyone can adjust the feel and response of the sound and tone through the velocity curve. Mine starts at pp (there is always a sound when a key is depressed; no point in pressing it if it doesn't) and fff usually happens around 100 on the horizontal scale.
The dynamic range is determined by the sliding scale, so there's all the tools to do the job if anyone wants to.
But I would concur with the poster. An acoustic upright is loud even when played quite gently and it would seem there's little you can do about it.

It's either megabucks on a "B" or a "D", or PTQ or similar. I'm after a VPC2. I can wait.

Last edited by peterws; 05/31/19 01:33 PM.

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Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: peterws] #2854252
05/31/19 01:39 PM
05/31/19 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws
I'm after a VPC2. I can wait.


I would also like that to be released, but as long as the vpc1 is the best virtual piano controller out there, i think Kawai won't be in a hurry with it.

When will the first hybrid virtual piano controller be released? smile

Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Nordomus] #2854257
05/31/19 01:46 PM
05/31/19 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
127 and 1 should be almost unachievable like they are on grand piano. BTW what is strange is that I can more easily play on acoustic than on digital, I mean ppp wise. So completely other way around some of you say. I was recently playing Novus NV10 and one of the Shigeru Kawais(SK-5 or SK-6) and I definitely could play more quiet on acoustic Kawai.

Well, as I mentioned above, I think 127 is just shy of the string breaking level on an acoustic. Some pianists are very good at breaking strings so they definitely get past 127.


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Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Morten Olsson] #2854267
05/31/19 02:02 PM
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Guys, just buy an acoustic piano if you want something that feels like a real piano. Here's a good start: https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=37313 smile

As an aside, if some of you invested the time you spend on these forums actually "practicing", you would be concert pianists by now. grin

Last edited by Jethro; 05/31/19 02:06 PM.

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Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Morten Olsson] #2854287
05/31/19 02:39 PM
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What I’m trying to say is there’s no standard. When one makes the software and then there are so many MIDI controllers it becomes impossible to create a proper response by just approximating vague categories such as pp or ffff and then mapping them to velocities of hammers taking in mind it’s not just volume change but also timbre change.

I’ve never had difficulties being expressive and creating the exact dynamic I want on an acoustic piano. However in digital pianos despite them being “easy” I’ve always struggled with dynamics. Until N1X. Proper response is an art. Only a few digital manufacturers (or should I say only one manufacturer) seem to master it.

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/31/19 02:40 PM.

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Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Morten Olsson] #2854289
05/31/19 02:46 PM
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Acoustics are not all the same. How hard it is to play ppp will depend on the condition of the action and voicing of the hammers. Digitals are also not all the same. That should be obvious from all the different models and price points....

For the vast majority of either, you can find one of the other that's easier, and one that's harder.


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Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2854290
05/31/19 02:46 PM
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Come on, guys. We really don't know what Pianoteq did, or what they tried to do. We can only judge the results.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
What leads you to believe that, for example, 100 on Pianoteq is artificial and not like an ffff note would be on the actual acoustical instrument being modeled?
...
I believe the Pianoteq engineers ... tried to create a model that accurately reflected the particular instrument they are modeling whether at a level of 1, 38, 50, or 100.
That last sentence might reflect what you (or I) would want. But we cannot say anything about what they did.

Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: jeffscot] #2854369
05/31/19 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffscot
Originally Posted by stamkorg
Yes I agree,
Especially the pp or ppp nuance is easier to play on a digital than on an acoustic.

Interesting thread . . . i haven’t found this to be true on my Yamaha P515. Has taken a lot of adjustment to get to where i can play softly and still have enough dynamic range.
Played a Steinway model B a couple days ago, and still feel it’s much easier to play softly on an acoustic.

I've experienced this as well with the Yamaha CLP-645. Last week I played a Roland HP-603A followed by the Yamaha. It was significantly easier to control the dynamics on the Roland than the Yamaha. Maybe this is due to the higher static weight of the NWX action?

Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Morten Olsson] #2854376
05/31/19 07:21 PM
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I spent time comparing an ES8 / P515 side by side recently and I did notice that the initial resistance on the NWX action would sometimes trip me up when playing pp.

Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: jon123] #2854480
06/01/19 04:38 AM
06/01/19 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jon123
Originally Posted by jeffscot
Originally Posted by stamkorg
Yes I agree,
Especially the pp or ppp nuance is easier to play on a digital than on an acoustic.

Interesting thread . . . i haven’t found this to be true on my Yamaha P515. Has taken a lot of adjustment to get to where i can play softly and still have enough dynamic range.
Played a Steinway model B a couple days ago, and still feel it’s much easier to play softly on an acoustic.

I've experienced this as well with the Yamaha CLP-645. Last week I played a Roland HP-603A followed by the Yamaha. It was significantly easier to control the dynamics on the Roland than the Yamaha. Maybe this is due to the higher static weight of the NWX action?


No. Roland's are just made that way. They are overly expressive. Yamaha is far closer to acoustic, but in both you can change it with two clicks. It's just default level that is set differently. Generally Roland pianos should have sensivity on -1

Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Morten Olsson] #2854483
06/01/19 05:51 AM
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What someone finds easy or difficult also has to do with his abilities. For example, beginners and less advanced students play better on an instrument that allows less expressivity. It can be compared to computer software etc.. Many people buy simple software because they can't use certain functions anyway. If a student is allowed to play a real Stradivarius violin, he is usually very disappointed, because he can play better on his cheap violin. The reason is simple: The Stradivari reacts very sensitively to all nuances due to the deep and many tonal possibilities. On the DP market there are now many possibilities for different playing abilities. But since the buyers are mostly beginners or not very advanced, DP are often produced (and highly praised by users) which are easy to play and don't require much playing experience. That's my impression...

Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Morten Olsson] #2854490
06/01/19 06:37 AM
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The question is not in "easy" or "hard" to play, but in how many nuances one can extract from the instrument. Likewise, a touche is more about sound color and overtones than about sound loudness. I replaced Kawai MP7 (same keyboard as ES8 if I'm not mistaken) with VPC1, and find that VPC1 is much better concerning variability of sound (applied with Ravenscroft 275). Besides, in MP7 I could not play glissandi in pp or p. Every-left hand glissando was so loud that the sustained right-hand notes were unhearable. With VPC1 it's perfectly OK.

Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: MrKaramba] #2854538
06/01/19 09:52 AM
06/01/19 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by MrKaramba
No. Roland's are just made that way. They are overly expressive. Yamaha is far closer to acoustic, but in both you can change it with two clicks. It's just default level that is set differently. Generally Roland pianos should have sensivity on -1


Using the internal sounds, I take your point, but for some external VSTs I have to make it more sensitive. On mine, the sensitivity is a setting from 1 to 100. 50 is the default. I sometimes change it by a few few percent.

I find the responsiveness of the Roland PHA50 very close to my own ancient grand, a newer Bechstein B, and a Steinway M that I play from time to time. It's hard to put into words, but the way my fingers connect to the music is very real. I do however wish that the upper bass keys felt more like the bottom octave.

It's different for everyone. The heavier feeling Kawais feel less real to me, but many people on this forum disagree with me. Don't get me wrong, the Kawais are fantastic pianos.

Still, I think practising sometimes on a heavy action is beneficial, and I'm thinking of modding the RM3 action on my old Kawai MP10 to change a couple of things. Having another piano to practise on is always good. I'm also thinking of buying a Yamaha P-515 to mod instead, or maybe the Casio PX-S100, which is much cheaper.

Last edited by johnstaf; 06/01/19 09:59 AM.
Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Morten Olsson] #2854539
06/01/19 10:00 AM
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Nearly all digital pianos are designed to play and sound like a grand piano - they do not attempt to replicate the experience of playing an upright either in terms of touch, dynamics or tone, apart from specific models, most evidently the Yamaha NU1(x).

I think to a greater or lesser extent a dp is successful in mimicking a grand piano. Even a cheap slab, though the cheapest ones are admittedly poor and best avoided if possible - midrange and above are the areas to buy from.

But anyway, I was surprised when I went back to playing an acoustic upright after having got used to a digital. The acoustic was limited in dynamic range - and therefore limited in dynamic potential. It was hit and miss and uneven in terms of touch, and lacked definition. Tonally, the acoustic upright was compromised (presumably by the design and size of the frame, soundboard and box), by which I mean more complex chord voicings were virtually lost in the mud.

Though I'm very far from being a virtuoso or even a particularly competent player, I dont think these limitations were down to my playing because I have also played grand pianos in the past - mostly Bluthner and Beckstein, and the experiance of playing digitals more closely resembled the grand pianos especially in terms of range and precision of expression, but also touch and clarity of tone.

However, overall, it's true that the acoustic grand, especially a well maintained one (such as my teacher's beloved Beckstein was), is more difficult to control, and therefore to play well, than the average digital piano. They are beasts that have to be tamed - which is just a pretentious way of saying that you need to work long and hard to play well enough to learn to play one reasonably well.


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Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: toddy] #2854544
06/01/19 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy

However, overall, it's true that the acoustic grand, especially a well maintained one (such as my teacher's beloved Beckstein was), is more difficult to control, and therefore to play well, than the average digital piano. They are beasts that have to be tamed - which is just a pretentious way of saying that you need to work long and hard to play well enough to learn to play one reasonably well.


I agree. The ideal training would probably be to have access to all types of piano. I recently tried a well maintained Steinway upright, and it was just completely weird. The action was really heavy, and it was hard to get it to respond, unlike the Steinway M in the same room. If I had time, I probably would have adjusted, and that would no doubt have been beneficial.

Last edited by johnstaf; 06/01/19 10:14 AM.
Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Morten Olsson] #2854561
06/01/19 10:54 AM
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Having had both, and being a beginner on each (now intermediate), I feel the digital is far easier to play, yet the acoustic has a far greater dynamic range and more control once more experience is gained. JMO


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Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Morten Olsson] #2854741
06/01/19 09:09 PM
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I currently have limited experience with this, but I find my Welmar upright "sings" more, but is a lot harder to play softer on. Also, the action is very slightly stiffer than my VPC1. Well, not "stiffer" but different. A bit more mechanical feeling. Which makes sense when you think about it. Just like you would expect.

I'm not sure the digital is easier per se, just different. It seems easier, but I suspect that's because I practice on it more.

I find that practising on the VPC1 definitely improves my playing on the upright, so I don't personally find anything wrong with doing the majority of my practice on the VPC1.

I've often suspected that it could be the case that there is more difference between an upright and a grand in terms of general feel than there is between say a VPC1 and a grand, given that the VPC1 is actually designed to emulate a grand. I have tried grands, and found this to be the case, but last time I played one was some years ago so not a definite memory but the VPC1 and those feel pretty similar, whereas my upright feels almost like a different instrument. Again, as you would expect. Grands and uprights have different mechanisms.

I just regard the VPC1 as another type of piano.

Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Morten Olsson] #2854805
06/02/19 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Morten Olsson
I spent time comparing an ES8 / P515 side by side recently and I did notice that the initial resistance on the NWX action would sometimes trip me up when playing pp.

I took me a while to adjust to the P-515 from the light and easy ES100.

But now it's the perfect action for me. Not too sensitive with the keys resting firmly, but very fast and responsive, once stuff starts moving.


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Re: DP - "too easy" compared to acoustic ? [Re: Morten Olsson] #2855270
06/03/19 05:58 PM
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On all upright I played I feel I could not play soft at all. But hey I played only on clunkers. But if I have acoustic piano at home they will already kick me out. The joy of volume control and headphones on DP!


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