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Re: Metronome usage
RVDowning #2852244 05/25/19 11:50 PM
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Reading up on Indian music is indeed fascinating.
Africa .... is a content with many countries, many cultures. That is also an interesting thing to explore.

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Re: Metronome usage
RVDowning #2852263 05/26/19 02:39 AM
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In the work on the rhythmic prosody, the metronome is given a place of honor.
Gottshalk-Bamboula, p. 6 - the third line in the right hand. (2:56)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULaHuSx4lmQ

The work is as follows:
1. All slurs are canceled.

2. The rhythm is divided into eighths:
| ta tu ta tu | ta tu ta tu ||

3. Eighth split into sixteen:
ta tu = taka tu

4. Put the metronome on tempo 112 MM

5. Utter with a metronome , without slurs , the following result is obtained:
|| taka tu ta tu | taka tu taka tu ||

6. Return the slurs : the union of eighths is pronounced
ta-ha (ta-a) or tu-hu ( tu-u )

7. Work on each measure, repeating it 4-5 times:

1) ||: taka tu-hu (eighth pause) | Taka tu-hu (eighth pause): ||
2) ||: Ta- | haka tu - huka tu: ||

8. Go to the instrument no earlier than the prosody with the metronome will flow smoothly.

Re: Metronome usage
RVDowning #2852488 05/26/19 05:16 PM
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Nahum's East Indian approach matches with some djembe instructor's thinking:

. . . "If you can say it, you can play it."

But (IMHO) that works _after_ you've developed a decent sense of rhythm ! There's nothing physically that stops you from saying the syllables "out of rhythm", and playing the same way.

This suggestion might sound ridiculous:

. . . Find a drum teacher, and explain your problem,
. . . . and see if he/she will work with you to develop a steady sense of "pulse" or "beat" (that's in the ears and head),
. . . . and the ability to play simple rhythms smoothly and correctly (that's in the hands).

All you'll need is a pair of drumsticks and a practice pad (or a table-top). The aural and motor skills will transfer to a piano keyboard.

I got a lot of benefit from doing hand-drumming over many years. It might work for you.


. Charles
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Re: Metronome usage
Charles Cohen #2852503 05/26/19 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Nahum's East Indian approach matches with some djembe instructor's thinking:

. . . "If you can say it, you can play it."

But (IMHO) that works _after_ you've developed a decent sense of rhythm ! There's nothing physically that stops you from saying the syllables "out of rhythm", and playing the same way.
[...]


That's what I wrote earlier, but someone took great exception to my view.

Given that English (the context of these threads) is a stress-timed language with individual syllables having varying lengths, it is not guaranteed that an English-speaking person, counting out numbers or words is going to be doing so in strict time, even though there may be an overall rhythmic regularity to a passage of speech. So, as you say, that works "... after you have developed a decent sense of rhythm."

Regards,


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Re: Metronome usage
RVDowning #2852584 05/27/19 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen

But (IMHO) that works _after_ you've developed a decent sense of rhythm ! There's nothing physically that stops you from saying the syllables "out of rhythm", and playing the same way.


As derived from our anatomy and physiology, the tips of the fingers are far away from the brain control center much more than the tongue in the mouth; which explains our greater control in the speed and accuracy of tongue movements than of the hands and fingers. You can do without jembe, if you work out the pronunciation of rhythm with the metronome, imitating the drums, as Bob Stoloff does.

https://yadi.sk/d/_MGtWcPT4d3QzA

I generally see the hand as a projection of the human body from the head to the diaphragm. It helps a lot to understand the coordination of its parts.

[Linked Image]
1. 5 tongues (fist like head, but brainless)
2. neck
3. torso
4. waist band
5 . diaphragm

We should not forget that we begin to train the tongue movements , at best, 5 years earlier than the movements of hands and fingers on the keyboard. There is simply no room for counting, except for determining the pace.




Last edited by Nahum; 05/27/19 01:53 AM.
Re: Metronome usage
Nahum #2852593 05/27/19 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
[
1. 5 tongues (fist like head, but brainless)
2. neck
3. torso
4. waist band
5 . diaphragm



I forgot to mention: hand playing movements = air movement during breathing.

Re: Metronome usage
Nahum #2852601 05/27/19 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
As derived from our anatomy and physiology, the tips of the fingers are far away from the brain control center much more than the tongue in the mouth; which explains our greater control in the speed and accuracy of tongue movements than of the hands and fingers.

The tip of my nose is much closer to the brain control center than the tips of my fingers, yet I have far greater control in the speed and accuracy of finger movements than of the tip of my nose...


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
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Re: Metronome usage
Animisha #2852605 05/27/19 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by Nahum
As derived from our anatomy and physiology, the tips of the fingers are far away from the brain control center much more than the tongue in the mouth; which explains our greater control in the speed and accuracy of tongue movements than of the hands and fingers.

The tip of my nose is much closer to the brain control center than the tips of my fingers, yet I have far greater control in the speed and accuracy of finger movements than of the tip of my nose...


3hearts yippie

Re: Metronome usage
RVDowning #2852757 05/27/19 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RVDowning
My rhythm is so bad that I've started trying to use a metronome, but it drives me nuts. Not sure whether I should set it to tic/toc mode, or just tics, and whether (assuming 4/4 time) to set it at 4 beats per measure, or 8 (if there is an eighth note) or even 16 if there is a 16th note. Likewise is it of value to have the first beat emphasized?

On the other hand, should I just stop using it?


I'm curious to know what you mean by "my rhythm is so bad".

Do you mean (and these are all separate problems):

- You have a hard time playing with a metronome?
- You lose track of which beat you are on in the measure?
- You have a hard time reading rhythmic notation?
- You have trouble fitting all of the notes in before the next beat?
- Or something else?

Re: Metronome usage
RVDowning #2852775 05/27/19 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Animisha

The tip of my nose is much closer to the brain control center than the tips of my fingers, yet I have far greater control in the speed and accuracy of finger movements than of the tip of my nose...

Mozart did not think so ...

Re: Metronome usage
RVDowning #2852781 05/27/19 12:44 PM
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Like everything else in piano, exposure and repetition are the key to learning. The metronome divides your attention and it takes time to learn how to handle that division. At fast tempos i use the metronome at 1tick per beat. At slow tempos 2 or more ticks per beat. And in triple meters 1 or 3 ticks per beat.

You likely find yourself behind the beat due to your body's reaction time. With practice you'll improve and start anticipating the beat maybe get there slightly ahead of the beat. When that occurs the metronome starts being your best friend.


Just do it. -- Nike
Re: Metronome usage
MichaelJK #2853162 05/28/19 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJK
Originally Posted by RVDowning
My rhythm is so bad that I've started trying to use a metronome, but it drives me nuts. Not sure whether I should set it to tic/toc mode, or just tics, and whether (assuming 4/4 time) to set it at 4 beats per measure, or 8 (if there is an eighth note) or even 16 if there is a 16th note. Likewise is it of value to have the first beat emphasized?

On the other hand, should I just stop using it?


I'm curious to know what you mean by "my rhythm is so bad".

Do you mean (and these are all separate problems):

- You have a hard time playing with a metronome?
- You lose track of which beat you are on in the measure?
- You have a hard time reading rhythmic notation?
- You have trouble fitting all of the notes in before the next beat?
- Or something else?


Yes, I have a hard time playing with the metronome. It is distracting. Teacher was telling me this morning that I am playing a bit faster than the metronome when we were trying a test.
Not sure about number 2.
Well, I can read it, but that is quite different from playing it, especially with syncopated or "swing" rhythms. Swing drives me nuts.

I am especially bad when there are rests in the middle of stuff, like a triplet with beats "missing" and likewise with swing with beats missing. If there are corresponding beats on each clef than I do better -- something for the other hand to play against so to speak.

Re: Metronome usage
RVDowning #2853186 05/28/19 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RVDowning

Yes, I have a hard time playing with the metronome. It is distracting. Teacher was telling me this morning that I am playing a bit faster than the metronome when we were trying a test.
Not sure about number 2.
Well, I can read it, but that is quite different from playing it, especially with syncopated or "swing" rhythms. Swing drives me nuts.

I am especially bad when there are rests in the middle of stuff, like a triplet with beats "missing" and likewise with swing with beats missing. If there are corresponding beats on each clef than I do better -- something for the other hand to play against so to speak.

I recommend you develop your own internal sense of beat and forget about the metronome. By counting aloud every time you practice as I mentioned earlier - or even just clicking your fingers wink , as Lenny advised:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wugWGhItaQA


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Metronome usage
RVDowning #2853463 05/29/19 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by RVDowning
Originally Posted by MichaelJK
Originally Posted by RVDowning
My rhythm is so bad that I've started trying to use a metronome, but it drives me nuts. Not sure whether I should set it to tic/toc mode, or just tics, and whether (assuming 4/4 time) to set it at 4 beats per measure, or 8 (if there is an eighth note) or even 16 if there is a 16th note. Likewise is it of value to have the first beat emphasized?

On the other hand, should I just stop using it?


I'm curious to know what you mean by "my rhythm is so bad".

Do you mean (and these are all separate problems):

- You have a hard time playing with a metronome?
- You lose track of which beat you are on in the measure?
- You have a hard time reading rhythmic notation?
- You have trouble fitting all of the notes in before the next beat?
- Or something else?


Yes, I have a hard time playing with the metronome. It is distracting. Teacher was telling me this morning that I am playing a bit faster than the metronome when we were trying a test.
Not sure about number 2.
Well, I can read it, but that is quite different from playing it, especially with syncopated or "swing" rhythms. Swing drives me nuts.

I am especially bad when there are rests in the middle of stuff, like a triplet with beats "missing" and likewise with swing with beats missing. If there are corresponding beats on each clef than I do better -- something for the other hand to play against so to speak.


Generally speaking, if you find the metronome to be distracting, it means you should practice with it more, not less. You are finding it distracting because you are fighting with it, rather than letting it help you.

Before you put your hands on the keyboard, take a few moments to listen to the metronome. Feel its pulse in your body. Let yourself groove to the beat silently.

The trick to all of this is letting your playing be guided by that groove. Not the metronome. Not your counting.

When I was a beginner, I hated the metronome, because it always seemed to be out of sync with me. It seemed like senseless torture. Now, I think it's one of the most wonderful inventions ever.

As far as needing something for the other hand to play against: yes, you do need something to play against. You need to think of your body as a coordinated whole. Not two separate hands. If there is a note in each hand on beat 2, you play a note in both hands on beat 2. If there is a rest in both hands on beat 2, you play a rest in both hands on beat 2. If there is a rest in one hand and a note in the other, you play a "note-rest" in both hands. It's one movement. The beat is felt in the whole body. Then, you always have something to play against. Does this make sense? I'm worried that the way I'm describing it makes it seem abstract.

Re: Metronome usage
RVDowning #2853677 05/29/19 06:59 PM
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I fully agree with Michael JK. I have been using the metronome for about a year. I an a returning learner. I am in my 40’s stopped in high school and seriously picked it about a year ago. Believe it or not I was never taught to use a metronome. I bought one and started using it about a year ago. I was so bad that I thought my metronome was malfunctioning. It was speeding up, slowing down. It just couldn’t keep up with me. I checked the batteries, flipped it over. I didn’t get it! I finally realized it wasn’t the metronome. It was me. I wasn’t playing with a steady rhythm. I can assure you, you are not the only one that has these metronome woes. Stick with it. Don’t give up. It does get better. One thing that helps is 1) using one with an earbud outlet and let it (softly) beat in your ear and 2( tap your feet along with the metronome. It helps your body feel the beat. It gets better! I really enjoy practicing with it now. (I do get off beat occasionally) (well often) but my practices are much more effective and intense with the metronome. Another positive side effect is the constant tick helps me to stay focused.

Re: Metronome usage
MarlaJackspiano #2853690 05/29/19 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by orangecrush
I fully agree with Michael JK. I have been using the metronome for about a year. I an a returning learner. I am in my 40’s stopped in high school and seriously picked it about a year ago. Believe it or not I was never taught to use a metronome. I bought one and started using it about a year ago. I was so bad that I thought my metronome was malfunctioning. It was speeding up, slowing down. It just couldn’t keep up with me. I checked the batteries, flipped it over. I didn’t get it! I finally realized it wasn’t the metronome. It was me. I wasn’t playing with a steady rhythm. I can assure you, you are not the only one that has these metronome woes. Stick with it. Don’t give up. It does get better. One thing that helps is 1) using one with an earbud outlet and let it (softly) beat in your ear and 2( tap your feet along with the metronome. It helps your body feel the beat. It gets better! I really enjoy practicing with it now. (I do get off beat occasionally) (well often) but my practices are much more effective and intense with the metronome. Another positive side effect is the constant tick helps me to stay focused.



Nobody is born with a sense of rhythm, it is a learned skill.

I know somebody who was studying at Juilliard and told his teacher that he didn’t need a metronome, that his sense of time was fine. She said, really, pulled out a metronome and had him play to it. The verdict, nope, his sense of time was not fine.

At a master class with an incredibly talented classical guitarist, a world class player, the topic of playing with a metronome came up and the guy said he played with one. I asked, how often?, and he said, every single practice session. There was stunned silence in the room.

The guy often has to play incredibly complicated music with others after only one rehearsal. Playing with a metronome is what makes it possible. I was so moved by his response that I went home, bought a Boss DB-90 and bolted it to my music stand and I now work with a metronome every single practice session. It helps a lot.

For piano practice, PianoMarvel helps me in that area but I still use the built in metronome on the Yamaha P-515.





Last edited by LarryK; 05/29/19 07:45 PM.
Re: Metronome usage
LarryK #2853700 05/29/19 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK

I know somebody who was studying at Juilliard and told his teacher that he didn’t need a metronome, that his sense of time was fine. She said, really, pulled out a metronome and had him play to it. The verdict, nope, his sense of time was not fine.

I think you're mistaking the ability to play along to a metronome for "sense of time".

Playing along to a click track is a skill that has to be learnt, just like playing to a metronome. It's incredibly distracting. I was never taught to play along with a metronome (none of my four teachers ever used one with me, except occasionally - and only to check the speed I was playing at: I never had to 'play along' with it), and I have no intention of starting any time soon. In fact, my last teacher told me I needed to loosen up for my diploma pieces because I was playing too rigidly in time in my Romantic pieces (Schubert and Rachmaninov), and even my Beethoven sonata needed a more plaint rhythmic profile. Try setting a metronome to any classical virtuoso's performance or recording of any music from Beethoven onwards, and you'll soon notice how much they drift off.

Quote
At a master class with an incredibly talented classical guitarist, a world class player, the topic of playing with a metronome came up and the guy said he played with one. I asked, how often?, and he said, every single practice session. There was stunned silence in the room.

The guy often has to play incredibly complicated music with others after only one rehearsal. Playing with a metronome is what makes it possible.

If he's a classical guitarist playing solo, he won't be playing along with a metronome.

If he's playing with others, he'll need to stay in time more closely, but playing along to a metronome all the time when practicing - really? Pianists who play chamber music may not have as much freedom as solo performers, but they still don't play with rigid time.

For beginners who haven't developed a good sense of rhythm, do whatever it takes to develop it.

All the teachers I know teach students to count beats from day 1. Feeling silly counting aloud is part of the deal: personally, I think that's part of the reason why adult students often struggle with rhythm - teachers make their child students do it but not their adult students. If students keep having to rely on an "external beat" to have any chance of playing in time, they will never be able to play without a metronome.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Metronome usage
bennevis #2853706 05/29/19 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK

I know somebody who was studying at Juilliard and told his teacher that he didn’t need a metronome, that his sense of time was fine. She said, really, pulled out a metronome and had him play to it. The verdict, nope, his sense of time was not fine.


Originally Posted by bennevis

I think you're mistaking the ability to play along to a metronome for "sense of time".


I think playing along to a metronome helps reinforce a sense of time. What am I supposed to use otherwise to reinforce a sense of time?

Originally Posted by bennevis

Playing along to a click track is a skill that has to be learnt, just like playing to a metronome. It's incredibly distracting. I was never taught to play along with a metronome (none of my four teachers ever used one with me, except occasionally - and only to check the speed I was playing at: I never had to 'play along' with it), and I have no intention of starting any time soon. In fact, my last teacher told me I needed to loosen up for my diploma pieces because I was playing too rigidly in time in my Romantic pieces (Schubert and Rachmaninov), and even my Beethoven sonata needed a more plaint rhythmic profile. Try setting a metronome to any classical virtuoso's performance or recording of any music from Beethoven onwards, and you'll soon notice how much they drift off.


I don't understand why you find playing to a metronome incredibly distracting. It's not distracting to me. I get in a groove with the metronome and it becomes an extension of my playing and it reinforces the connection between my fingers and my brain that indicates that I am playing in time. I understand that professional players drift off of time, but it is important to be able to play in time, on any instrument, before playing out of time. I'm also not a professional and don't expect to be able to play like one, and I don't think a sloppy sense of timing can be dismissed as playing professionally.

Originally Posted by LarryK
At a master class with an incredibly talented classical guitarist, a world class player, the topic of playing with a metronome came up and the guy said he played with one. I asked, how often?, and he said, every single practice session. There was stunned silence in the room. The guy often has to play incredibly complicated music with others after only one rehearsal. Playing with a metronome is what makes it possible.


Originally Posted by bennevis

If he's a classical guitarist playing solo, he won't be playing along with a metronome.


He's not playing solo, he's half of a world famous classical guitar duo with a few CDs to their name, and he often plays with other ensembles. Also, he plays all of his duet pieces from memory. That, to me, is amazing, but it indicates how deeply he learns the music. He grew up sight-reading through stacks of music, and he really is an incredibly talented classical guitarist, but, you know, classical guitar is a small niche in the music world.

And, oh, solo classical guitarists do work with a metronome all the time because the start/stop playing that is often seen in classical guitarists who have a poor sense of rhythm is not pleasant to listen to.

As for me, I play solo but I also play a contra bass guitar as part of a trio. A contra bass guitar is a classical guitar with six strings, tuned the same as a classical guitar, just down an octave, so it has the range of a double bass. Ensemble playing helps me a lot with rhythm. We work with a metronome in our rehearsals, not all the time, but some of the time. We also count out loud, learn to listen to each other, and to follow a leader.

Originally Posted by bennevis

If he's playing with others, he'll need to stay in time more closely, but playing along to a metronome all the time when practicing - really? Pianists who play chamber music may not have as much freedom as solo performers, but they still don't play with rigid time.

For beginners who haven't developed a good sense of rhythm, do whatever it takes to develop it.

All the teachers I know teach students to count beats from day 1. Feeling silly counting aloud is part of the deal: personally, I think that's part of the reason why adult students often struggle with rhythm - teachers make their child students do it but not their adult students. If students keep having to rely on an "external beat" to have any chance of playing in time, they will never be able to play without a metronome.


I said he plays along with a metronome during every practice session, not that he necessarily practices with a metronome every single minute of every practice session. He also does a lot of slow practice, but that is another discussion.

I know solo piano players can do whatever they want with time, but if they drop beats constantly or add extra beats, for no reason except that they can't play in time, who could stand to listen to them? I couldn't.

Yes, I also believe in counting out loud, but it helps to work with the metronome to get that counting solid. I have a good sense of rhythm on the guitar but less so on the piano, because coordinating two hands on the piano is a new skill to me.

Last edited by LarryK; 05/29/19 08:48 PM.
Re: Metronome usage
LarryK #2853707 05/29/19 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK

I know solo piano players can do whatever they want with time, but if they drop beats constantly or add extra beats, for no reason except that they can't play in time, who could stand to listen to them? I couldn't.


Whoever said that rubato means dropping beats or adding beats?

You're misunderstanding most of what I said.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Metronome usage
bennevis #2853708 05/29/19 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by LarryK

I know solo piano players can do whatever they want with time, but if they drop beats constantly or add extra beats, for no reason except that they can't play in time, who could stand to listen to them? I couldn't.


Whoever said that rubato means dropping beats or adding beats?

You're misunderstanding most of what I said.


Sure, I understand rubato, but I never mentioned that word. Playing in time as a beginner or intermediate player is a far more important than perfecting your rubato, let's face it.

I can't get away with playing sloppily in my lessons by claiming that I'm doing it for purposes of expression. It's obvious when I can't play something in time at a specific tempo.

What am I misunderstanding?

Last edited by LarryK; 05/29/19 08:58 PM.
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New Topics - Multiple Forums
New - Hammond SK-Pro organ & synth (SK1 upgrade)
by Doug M. - 01/15/21 01:09 PM
New Korg announcements in a few days...
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Estonia 190
by Walkman - 01/15/21 12:02 PM
My 'Gentle' and 'quieter' tuning technique
by Beemer - 01/15/21 10:46 AM
The Yamaha CFX ???
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