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Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: keystring] #2852790
05/27/19 01:01 PM
05/27/19 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
In regard to specialized classes for kids. I was once brought a child who was around 12 or 13, and would be going on to high school the following year. The child had been in Special Ed for a number of years, and was reading at a mid-grade 1 level when I tested him. As we worked, I discovered he could read big words but not bigger sentences. He tried to see the whole thing at once, almost as if in a panic. I found ways to address this, and the whole thing turned around. Within a few months, this child was reading at a grade 8 level.

This has made me wonder ever since. How is it that the Special Ed could not catch and treat this? Was it that they were locked in protocol that always treated things according to a certain roster of methodology? Were they locked into testing procedure - Myers Brigg or whatever - which prevented them from a more open-ended and broader way of observing and assessing? Was this a unique and unusual case?

It is a shame that some students really do shine with one on one lessons but flounder about and fail in group lessons. I have seen many cases of this in my teach career also, being predominantly a one on one teacher I have had a number of students who are far below average in multi student classroom situations but absolutely shine in our one on one lesson situations. It is because we can focus on them personally and deal with their wants and needs, I can put a lot of energy into motivating them and cheering them on, I can focus on things which they really need help with and at work along side them at a rate they can keep up with. We don't just expect them to climb a tree like all the other monkeys in the classroom when they are obviously a fish who can swim extremely well! You just can't do this when teaching 20,30 kids at once, you can try but then you find out your time is just not there, so you teach to a mass entity and hope that everypme gets it. You can try to give extra time to those that struggle after the lesson or outside of school time but often they are so exhausted or defeated by the struggle day presented them that it all often becomes too much. So there is a real problem for some kids there in the schooling system.




Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/27/19 01:02 PM.

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Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2852791
05/27/19 01:02 PM
05/27/19 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
That is understandable when teaching larger classes with multiple students as the time and resource for one on one specifically crafted lessons is severely limited. Though with lesson which are solely one on one teachers should be encouraged to have the capability to specifically craft a lesson to suit a particular students wants as well as their needs. Since this OP had specific desires I think it is totally fine for them to have such wishes and a caring teacher will be able to satisfy those wants as well as help open roads for them to grow in a "better" way also, but in the time of the student not specifically from the teachers timeline. In larger classroom situations this type of care is limited and of course certain teachers will not have the foresight to deal with such students, they of course do not represent the majority of students out there but we do have to consider what do we do with these unusual cases, to simply palm them off elsewhere imho is a failure on the teachers behalf not the students.


So here is another scenario.
A speech-language pathologist in private practice sees clients individually. The field of speech-language pathology includes child language development, sound system development, voice, fluency (stuttering), swallowing, and acquired (neurological) disorders. The practitioner is qualified to provide treatment for all of these issues. If a practitioner has specialized skill in the treatment of stuttering is it not permitted for her or him to limit practice to the area of expertise and refer potential clients elsewhere for treatment of swallowing disorders? And vice versa.

It is a case of the student shopping at the wrong store.


Learner
Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: malkin] #2852796
05/27/19 01:11 PM
05/27/19 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
That is understandable when teaching larger classes with multiple students as the time and resource for one on one specifically crafted lessons is severely limited. Though with lesson which are solely one on one teachers should be encouraged to have the capability to specifically craft a lesson to suit a particular students wants as well as their needs. Since this OP had specific desires I think it is totally fine for them to have such wishes and a caring teacher will be able to satisfy those wants as well as help open roads for them to grow in a "better" way also, but in the time of the student not specifically from the teachers timeline. In larger classroom situations this type of care is limited and of course certain teachers will not have the foresight to deal with such students, they of course do not represent the majority of students out there but we do have to consider what do we do with these unusual cases, to simply palm them off elsewhere imho is a failure on the teachers behalf not the students.

If a practitioner has specialized skill in the treatment of stuttering is it not permitted for her or him to limit practice to the area of expertise and refer potential clients elsewhere for treatment of swallowing disorders? And vice versa.

Sure I am not saying all teachers are able to or even interested to work with difficult students. The fact is however all teachers if they wanted to could do it so it is just a matter of their own choice, it is not that they are unable to teach the student it is more that they don't have the energy or motivation to go through the tough road ahead to get through to that student. That is of course fine though for me it would never be a choice, I feel a failure if I cannot help a student and I have failed in the past but it is not because I was the wrong teacher it is always because those students were forced into lessons to begin with and never enjoyed it to begin with. I am not trained in dealing with severely autistic students but I have taught several of them successfully, so much so that I actually now feel confident that I can deal with autistic students no matter how low functioning and this is even though I have no degree in music therapy. I was begged to teach my first low functioning autistic student because they could not afford proper music therapy focused on piano and all the other "normal" piano teachers discarded their child as unteachable, so I took on that immense challenge and even though it was incredibly difficult we both prevailed in the end. In my mind I know there are a few students that some teachers may tag as "unteachables" out there, for me this is more like an invitation for a challenge to me, "So you think you can teach? Here's a tough case, prove it!" That sort of challenge.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/27/19 01:14 PM.

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Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2852812
05/27/19 02:24 PM
05/27/19 02:24 PM
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Please do not confuse music therapy with music instruction for special populations.
https://www.musictherapy.org/about/musictherapy/


From your post(s) I understand that you disagree with the view that private teachers need to be free to run their studios as they wish. Your example that you would feel a failure if you limited your studio doesn't really support the argument.


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Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2852814
05/27/19 02:33 PM
05/27/19 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
It is a shame that some students really do shine with one on one lessons but flounder about and fail in group lessons.

I should stress that in that story ---- which btw was off topic --- I had training in learning disabilities, so I was not just wildly experimenting.
Quote
You just can't do this when teaching 20,30 kids at once, you can try but then you find out your time is just not there, so you teach to a mass entity and hope that everyome gets it. ...

erm - not quite how I learned and practised classroom teaching. wink But that was this country, at that time.

Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: malkin] #2852933
05/27/19 09:09 PM
05/27/19 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by malkin
Please do not confuse music therapy with music instruction for special populations.
https://www.musictherapy.org/about/musictherapy/

From your post(s) I understand that you disagree with the view that private teachers need to be free to run their studios as they wish. Your example that you would feel a failure if you limited your studio doesn't really support the argument.

It was an example of my real experience, you gave a random example with a speech pathologist (which has a far fetched relationship with piano education) or am I not allowed to do such things but you can? Sorry if you can't understand. I did give musical therapy since much of what was done in the lesson had little to do with actual piano playing and much more to do with skills that were much more foundational to building their learning and physical and relationship capabilities, so there is no confusion thanks. My example that I would feel a failure clearly highlights my stance on the situation, I have already said that a teacher running a studio can teach however they like I am giving my stance on the situation, whether you agree or not is irrelevant. I prove that some teachers like myself will take on any student as a challenge no matter how "unteachable" other teachers might find them, it has nothing to do with training or best fit as you tried to show in your previous post about a speech pathologist though you are welcome to that ideology I am presenting an opinion which does not take that into consideration. If that opposes your opinion that is fine that doesn't mean you are wrong that just means you don't want to do such things.


Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/27/19 09:18 PM.

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Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: keystring] #2852934
05/27/19 09:11 PM
05/27/19 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
[quote=Lostinidlewonder]
Quote
You just can't do this when teaching 20,30 kids at once, you can try but then you find out your time is just not there, so you teach to a mass entity and hope that everyome gets it. ...

erm - not quite how I learned and practised classroom teaching. wink But that was this country, at that time.

Well if you can treat a classroom of 20-30 kids exactly the same as if you were teaching one on one students congratulations you are prolific with your time managment and teaching efficiency.


"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2852958
05/28/19 12:15 AM
05/28/19 12:15 AM
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Don't understand what the discussion is about. Any student learn to play, because he wants to express to express himself (except for those who are forced by parents). Those who have not learned expressiveness from himself cannot express composer music; and this is studied through improvisation - ABC of theater actor. . Yes, this requires technique, technique and technique ( H. Neihaus); but in other way . the student must learn that in addition to the musical text, there is a scenario that needs to be interpreted and brought out. And there is room for both teacher and student, to whom this work will be the most interesting!

Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2852964
05/28/19 12:56 AM
05/28/19 12:56 AM
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I don't understand this thread, either. Technique and interpretation are both important.


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Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2852977
05/28/19 01:31 AM
05/28/19 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Well if you can treat a classroom of 20-30 kids exactly the same as if you were teaching one on one students congratulations you are prolific with your time managment and teaching efficiency.

Earth to Lost - Sarcasm is not a good way of conducting a conversation. How about, "Can you explain further?" Or "What do you mean?" Btw, nobody wrote about treating anyone "exactly the same". I'm sorry that you are not into exchanging ideas.

Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: keystring] #2853039
05/28/19 07:27 AM
05/28/19 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Well if you can treat a classroom of 20-30 kids exactly the same as if you were teaching one on one students congratulations you are prolific with your time managment and teaching efficiency.

Earth to Lost - Sarcasm is not a good way of conducting a conversation. How about, "Can you explain further?" Or "What do you mean?" Btw, nobody wrote about treating anyone "exactly the same". I'm sorry that you are not into exchanging ideas.

Who is being sarcastic I certainly wasn't? Why don't you stop your assumptions? I can't help it if you interpret what I write in a keypeg style. I said you can't teach a large classroom and have time with each student like one on one and you piped up saying aww that's not how we do it. Why don't YOU explain further.


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Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2853074
05/28/19 08:58 AM
05/28/19 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Animisha
When writing on a forum, it is a good quality to be able to sometimes just give up. It is not necessary to always have the last word. You can sometimes just think, I have made my point, that's it. smile



This.


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Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2853146
05/28/19 12:39 PM
05/28/19 12:39 PM
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I am going to do this only once - I'd rather not go down the same rabbit hole so many others have done - because you genuinely don't seem to know.
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Well if you can treat a classroom of 20-30 kids exactly the same as if you were teaching one on one students congratulations you are prolific with your time managment and teaching efficiency.

Earth to Lost - Sarcasm is not a good way of conducting a conversation. How about, "Can you explain further?" Or "What do you mean?" Btw, nobody wrote about treating anyone "exactly the same". I'm sorry that you are not into exchanging ideas.

Who is being sarcastic I certainly wasn't? ........

When you write, "Congratulations, you are prolific...." etc., you do not believe I am prolific with what you listed, you are not really congratulating me; you are saying my statements as you see them are untrue. The tone is belligerent, as though you're out for a fight, and that's a turn-off. Some people do "converse" in a way where they attack and counter attack, and even seem to enjoy that. Probably young guys among each other.

In case you are in any way interested and it was miscommunication: on the OT topic individualized instruction, here's the fuller story.

Back when I taught in the classroom, which was in this country and not yours, and at a time when you might been getting ready to start Kindergarten - so a long time ago - I taught grade 2. when we teach, we are not always standing in front of a class giving a presentation. I had things set up so that there were work stations in the back of the room for students to explore in more of a Montessori style; homework was done in the classroom - I circulated among the kids individually. Some kids who had been given special things to do through "early identification" and a specialist, had their own activities. The boy with the LD affecting spelling had a manual typewriter, for example, as recommended. I had volunteers coming in, pulling this or that student out for extra one-on-one work. It was not "exactly the same", nor "the same" as one-on-one. But I had also not said that it was the same. I was indicating that there are a lot of possibilities for classroom teaching besides what one may commonly imagine or think of.

This was OT anyway so I won't go on with it. I wrote another post that was on the topic. If any of my posts got a response, I'd rather it be that one.

Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2853149
05/28/19 12:49 PM
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I am reiterating what I wrote before, which I don't usually do, because I think it's on point.
Originally Posted by keystring
If I have a profession and am a professional, meaning I also have the knowledge and skills going with it, then it's my responsibility to apply this to my customer's benefit. Say I'm a house painter. My customer wants me to paint the outside wood siding using water-based paint because it's cheaper. I know that the weather will erode water-based paint; it must be oil-based paint. My knowledge and expertise supersedes my customer's wishes, because if I do what he wants, I'm causing harm he doesn't know about: his house will look horrid in a year, and he'll spend much more since the house will have to be repainted often. That is one scenario.

Again as a painter: My customer wants the house to be purple, and I hate purple. The customer's wish prevails over my taste. Or, the customer wants the house to be purple, but I'm a traditionalist, following tradition, and by tradition, siding has always been white or brown. Again, tradition has no place here. However, if tradition says outside siding should be painted with oil-based paint - that tradition is based on the harm water-based paint would bring.

The question then comes, which type of scenario do we have here?

To bring that into this topic: If the OP wants to get technique, and if the teacher is interested in teaching music to sound according to her ideals, then we may have the scenario of the purple house - the teacher thinking purpose houses are ugly in her personal taste, or purple houses ought not to be because traditionally all houses have been white or brown. In that case the person who wants to get technique but has his own ideas about creativity and style ---- and does not want to end up in a classical performance circuit ---- should find an accommodating teacher / switch teachers.

Otoh, if the teacher's resistance is tied up in the "water-based paint for outside siding" type of conflict, where what the student wants will be harmful but he doesn't know it, then it's time to follow the teacher's guidance.

It is not that black and white, because some elements of interpretation can be tied up with technique and vice versa. It may also be very difficult to teach things such as counting and maybe motions related to this, if the students, for example, wants to use different rhythms. That may disorient the teacher.

We can't really tell, here.

Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2853156
05/28/19 01:16 PM
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I'm seeing a slightly different viewpoint here.

The OP has a desire for blazing virtuoso technique, and little interest in expression or interpretation. Maybe a sports analogy would be a golf student who will never play a game, but wants to win long drive contests. He won't need to putt, chip, pitch, or approach; he won't have 13 clubs in his bag.

To accomplish this he needs a skilled teacher willing to work with him. That is two criteria, not one. The teacher must be skilled AND the teacher must be willing to work with the student. That limits the selection a bit. (the teacher must also be willing to focus on technique as primary rather than musicality, but that may not be impossible to find)

THEREFORE the student must not appear to be difficult. The initial post would send warning signals if I were a teacher considering a new student. I might see the technique focus as a challenge, maybe with the thought I'd eventually trick them into musicality. But a difficult student is too much aggravation. The OP is from Russia so I may be reading too much into his English but that's how I saw it.


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Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2853157
05/28/19 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
I told a couple of teachers I met recently that I need only technique and need no advices on enterpretation etc. I tried to use some metaphores. Like "Imagine, that you have a car and your own race track. And you never gonna drive the steets with another drivers - only on your own race track alone. So, you need no Traffic Laws. You just need some one who will teach you to feel the car properly, for your driving to be safe for your health".
Same is with piano playing. I don't care of habits that can "hurt" anyone's ears. I only care of avoiding injuries, getting ability to play faster and other technical stuff.
Do teachers that teach only technique and never say "Hey, you emphasize wrong notes!" exist?

You will come to the realization as you progress further in your studies that emphasizing the wrong notes can make some pieces "technically" impossible to play especially as you begin to approach the more difficult pieces that require solid technique. Emphasizing certain notes is not just about interpretation it is also involved in good technique. For example there will be complex fast tempo running passages that become impossible to play unless you are emphasizing the right notes. This has been one the fundamental things I have learned over the past year and why I had been having trouble with certain sections of very challenging pieces. Two of the pieces I have been learning recently are Chopin's G minor Ballade and Bach-Busoni's Chaconne in D minor. Other complex pieces include some of the Beethoven sonatas. I was self taught for the first few decades of learning and never learned scales so I am deficient in this area particularly. At the end of the G minor ballade there is heavy parallel scale work in both hands which were meant to be played quickly. I struggled with this and kept believing that I just had faulty "technique". I came to the realization that a minute change in the way I mentally approached the scales made all the world of difference. The only thing that I changed was which notes I was mentally emphasizing in my head which led to minor adjustments on how I played the scales. This lead to making these passages playable and with much greater speed and evenness. Don't ignore what your teachers are telling you. You don't know enough to question it at this point in your studies.


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Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: keystring] #2853160
05/28/19 01:33 PM
05/28/19 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I am going to do this only once - I'd rather not go down the same rabbit hole so many others have done - because you genuinely don't seem to know.
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Well if you can treat a classroom of 20-30 kids exactly the same as if you were teaching one on one students congratulations you are prolific with your time managment and teaching efficiency.

Earth to Lost - Sarcasm is not a good way of conducting a conversation. How about, "Can you explain further?" Or "What do you mean?" Btw, nobody wrote about treating anyone "exactly the same". I'm sorry that you are not into exchanging ideas.

Who is being sarcastic I certainly wasn't? ........

When you write, "Congratulations, you are prolific...." etc., you do not believe I am prolific with what you listed, you are not really congratulating me; you are saying my statements as you see them are untrue. The tone is belligerent, as though you're out for a fight, and that's a turn-off. Some people do "converse" in a way where they attack and counter attack, and even seem to enjoy that. Probably young guys among each other.

Well I wasn't being sarcastic, how many times do you want me to say it? Maybe you don't know how to read IF THEN type logic statements. If you want to still think I am being sarcasic, fine believe that, I really don't care if you don't want to hear it straight from the horses mouth that I am not and prefer your made up stories.

The reason this was all brought up was because some kids really struggle in larger classrooms and there is no time to give them the teachers attention if they are struggling so because there are 20-30 other kids to deal with. Kids who are really struggling wont have a teacher go to them and help them every day of the year to make sure they are up to scratch like you would in a one on one lesson. That is what I am talking about, sure you can bring up all other situations up but I am talking about this specifically.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/28/19 01:42 PM.

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Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2853168
05/28/19 01:45 PM
05/28/19 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
The reason this was all brought up was because some kids really struggle in larger classrooms and there is no time to give them the teachers attention if they are struggling so because there are 20-30 other kids to deal with. Kids who are really struggling wont have a teacher go to them and help them every day of the year to make sure they are up to scratch like you would in a one on one lesson. That is what I am talking about, sure you can bring up all other situations up but I am talking about this specifically.

Got it. Thank you for explaining.

Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2853732
05/29/19 10:50 PM
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Hi friend, without reading the rest of the posts I can tell you right off the bat why your approach won't work. You need technique to learn how to emphasize notes, and how in the world are you and your teacher going to know what note you want to emphasize and if you're emphasizing something cause you just don't know how to do it better or cause you want to? What a nightmare of a piano lesson that would be. So, learn to do what your piano teacher wants you to do and what the score says, you have to learn how to read before you learn to write a novel. It's a poor analogy, but wanting to interpret your own way is fine, as long as you learn how to read other's music with the interpretation they or, your teacher, intended, first.
It is too easy to pretend like everything is your interpretation otherwise. What, I chop my veggies all in a mess, haphazardly? That's my interpretation! I put a lot of salt and you think it's too salty? My interpretation! I just like to do things.. randomly! Psh.. Imagine how much easier cooking becomes when I learned to chop my things in straight lines and evenly, like the pros do! You mean food cooks evenly when I cut it all the same size? Mind blown.
Learn from the pros, THEN interpret. There is a reason why piano teaching even can be taught. Because there is an at least somewhat agreed upon idea of what sounds good and how to achieve it. Same with cooking. Sure, you can cook how you want, but if you never learn why a certain dish works and how the vinegar brightens it up, you are going to be like those cooks off of Worst Cooks of America, and not Gordon Ramsay who, though he didn't go to culinary school, trained under top chefs smile

I hope you take my advice. smile


~piano teacher in training~
Re: Why cannot teachers separate the wheat from the chaff? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2854708
06/01/19 05:12 PM
06/01/19 05:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 11
A
Austerlitz Offline
Junior Member
Austerlitz  Offline
Junior Member
A

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 11
I am kind of baffled by many of the responses to the OP.

The seem to blame the question and I think it is a perfectly valid one.

I also think that many piano teachers lack the ability to articulate technical aspects a deeper level, not necessarily because they lack technique themselves. I had one teacher recently who have held concerts with the complete set of Transcendental etudes, but he certainly didn't have the best grasp of what was happening technically (compared to other teachers).

One way to rephrase the question would be this: say that you go to a piano teacher and say: I want to be able to play c major as fast and smooth as possible, and ONLY that. It is a skill like any other (though not a musical one). Which teachers would be able to give really helpful advice, on a deep motorical level? And which wouldn't. I think you would find that many (excellent) piano teachers wouldn't be able to say much, except the very basics.

I remember accompanying a opera singer friend to his lesson (as an accompanatuer). I was amazed by the technical focus. How many piano teachers can name all the muscles in the lower arm?

All this being said, the best thing for the pianistic development of the OP is to find a teacher that talks a lot about interpretation, it usually is...

Last edited by Austerlitz; 06/01/19 05:21 PM.
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