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What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
#2852579 05/27/19 02:00 AM
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Have a few questions regarding which speakers to use:

ADAM Audio A3X monitor ADAM Audio A3X 2-way monitor (pair) vs JBL 308?

I got the JBL 308. The sound isn't as strong (loud) as I was hoping. I'm looking for quality over loudness. It just doesn't have a "full" feel I was hoping for.

Is there a noticeable difference using a single monitor vs. the two-way R and L fixed output? I wonder if I'm compromisign the quality of sound mp11 is capable of.

Also, what is the difference using above monitors vs. a guitar amp?

I'm primarily wanting to be able to fill a large room (100-200 people) with quality piano sound for wedding/cockail party gigs. That's why I got the Kawai mp11!

Second priority is practicing repertoire at home in 12x12 room with high ceiling. The JBL 308 I just got sort of accomplishes this. Would a regular old guitar amp accomplish both objectives (gigs and home)? If so, any recommendations for models?

Trying to sort out which model to choose! Please help! Any recommendations appreciated. Many thanks.

Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2852585 05/27/19 02:52 AM
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The JBL 308's aren't "PA speakers". They're not designed to cover a large room with consistent sound. They're near-field monitors -- designed for a smaller room, with people closer to the speakers, more-or-less on-axis with the tweeters. PA speakers are (generally) designed with a wider spread of sound from their tweeters.

I don't think my EV ZXA1 would be quite big enough for that job, even if I had a pair of them. I'd look for a pair of speakers with 10" woofers, and perhaps 300-500 watts each (Mackie, EV, Yamaha, Yorkville, QSC, maybe Behringer at a lower price):

. . . And I'd run them from the MP11's monophonic output, rather than as a stereo pair;

. . . And I'd put them on speaker stands like this, as high as you could reach:

. . . https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...s7761b-all-aluminum-speaker-stand-single

Such speakers, used for piano, shouldn't need a subwoofer.

Depending on how many gigs you play, renting that gear might be cheaper than buying it. Renting is _surely_ cheaper than buying, and making a mistake.

That assumes that you want to play "foreground piano". For "background piano", less power (and a bit less bass) would be fine; a pair of EV ZXA1's would be adequate, IMHO.

Two 10" PA speakers (IMHO) is over-kill for a 12' x 12' studio; the JBL 308s should be OK for that.

Guitar amps have a limited, "tailored" frequency response. You could get a "keyboard amp" (wider, flatter frequency response), that would work better for piano.

I'm sure there are other ways to skin the cat, and you'll hear about them here.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2852625 05/27/19 07:55 AM
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bose F1 is a neat array speaker.

Link to BOSE F1


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Charles Cohen #2852777 05/27/19 01:40 PM
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That's helpful. Thanks for sharing. Do you think EV ZXA1 would give me better sound for 12x12 studio? Any keyboard amps to consider? Thanks again.

Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2852827 05/27/19 04:28 PM
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I have owned all sorts of monitors over the years and have never been able to settle on anything for long.

At the suggestion of someone at Piano World, I tried the ….Edifier R1850DB multimedia speakers.

Affordable and I like them.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2852828 05/27/19 04:31 PM
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a) I don't know anything about keyboard amps. The people who get them, in this forum, often move to powered monitors or PA speakers. They are good "one-box solutions" for someone who needs a mixer and multiple instrument inputs.

b) Yes, a pair of ZXA1's would be louder than the LSR308's. Manufacturer's specs (for one speaker):

. . . LSR308: Max Peak SPL 112 dB SPL C-Weighted ("C-weighted" means "more-or-less unweighted")

. . . . . Total power: 112 watts (56 woofer, 56 tweeter)

. . . ZXA1-B: Peak SPL: 126 dB

. . . . . Total power: 800 watts (I think this might be exaggerated a bit; 300 watts RMS might be more realistic).

The ZXa1 uses a very efficient "compression-driver" tweeter; it is certainly louder than an LSR 308. The difference of 14 dB in peak SPL should translate into something like "twice as loud" subjectively.

But:

You're the first person I've seen, complaining that LSR 308's weren't loud enough, in a studio setting. So two questions:

a) How far are your ears, from the loudspeakers ?

b) Do you have the LSR 308 "Volume" level turned up ?

c) Have you tried setting the "Input Sensitivity" to "-10 dBV" (which is the "more sensitive" position) ?

d) What's the "volume" setting on the MP11 ?


Thanks --


. Charles
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PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Charles Cohen #2852885 05/27/19 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
d) What's the "volume" setting on the MP11 ?


This is a good point. The MPs effectively have two separate volume controls: one to adjust the current zone/section (e.g. PIANO in this case) volume, and one to adjust the overall master volume.

It's probably best to maximise the volume of the current zone, then adjust the master volume as desired. If the volume through your speakers with both zone and master volume maximised, you should look into your amplifier/speaker configuration.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2852904 05/27/19 08:22 PM
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Filling a room of 100-200 people? It's a longer discussion. I play out quite frequently, and have burned through a ton of gear to get the right sound. Right now, I have more than a half-dozen different choices to play through on a given night, depending on requirements. Lucky me.

You want a self-powered PA system. If you're playing AP sounds, forget guitar amps, keyboard amps and the like. I'm assuming that the material is mostly acoustic?

Option #1 -- the newer crop of line arrays in a pole form factor are very attractive. Crisp highs, great dispersion, projects well to the back of the room. Consider RCF, Electro-Voice, LD Systems and perhaps a few others. Oh, and yes, the grand-daddy of the form factor, the Bose L1 Model II (or perhaps the 1S). I have a Bose L1 Model 1S and the RCF Evox J8 for these types of acoustic gigs. I'll probably pick up the LD Maui 28 G2 before long. One is plenty.

Option #2 -- if you need to rise above the band, you'll be interested in a pair of self-powered speakers sitting on poles. I think the best bang-for-buck with decent quality and power is the QSC K8.2s. Put a pair behind you, complete AP joy at volume. There are many similar offerings from other vendors if you like. Or go nuts and splurge on a pair of RCF TT08-a units.

BTW, the EV Z series mentioned above are just fine for entry-level applications. Much better than what you have.

Best of luck!

Last edited by cphollis; 05/27/19 08:26 PM. Reason: more thoughts

Life is too short to be playing bad music.

Practice: Bosie 200, Yam N3
Live: Nord Piano 4, Stage 3 Compact
Amps: QSC K.2s, RCF TT08-s, FA 12-ac, CPS SSv3
Support: STAY stands, X-Air mixers, Vent II, etc
Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2852931 05/27/19 10:08 PM
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I posted something but I guess it was not recognized as much as it should. That's my bad as I did not explain what I posted.

I would say instead of buying a PA, purchase the Line Array Speaker system. Here is why:

A good loud yet clear/crisp output is not just defined by dBs or the quality of a single or double speakers/monitors set up.

PA systems are pretty old in technology. A more modern system (technology) is to use the Line Array Speakers... let's see a picture first:

[Linked Image]

The Line Array System is very flexible! You can adjust the direction of the speakers to have a longer throw compared to a conventional PA system. Most of the fancy music hall and theatres these days benefit from such designs. The complex environments require some knowledge and a lot of money of course:

[Linked Image]

Recently, many companies have started producing Portable Line Array Speaker Systems! These systems are affordable and very flexible. If you open the link to the BOSE product you'll see the flexibility of this system. You can adjust the throw direction of the speakers and you can fill the environment without causing too much feedback (bouncing from obstacles) and more direct sound compared to a pointy PA speaker.

Anyway, if you are interested here is more information from soundonsound website:
Line Array System Explaind (soundonsound.com)

These affordable systems are very versatile and easy to setup and you don't need and engineer to set it up for you. This is what BOSE will do for you:

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Abdol; 05/27/19 10:12 PM.

Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2852942 05/27/19 11:25 PM
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To the OP:

I used the Line 6 gear, once, in a large gym filled with people, and it's impressive. But it's _not_ cheap -- it was rented, not bought.

The Bose (and equivalent) "line array" systems are probably a better balance among cost, quality, and capability. If you're content with monophonic sound, one of them might give coverage equivalent to a pair of normal PA speakers, aimed 90 degrees apart.

. . . What's your budget ?


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2853298 05/28/19 08:33 PM
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Here is another one just in case you don't like BOSE by LD System introduced in 2018 (I guess):

LD System Curve 500 TS

[Linked Image]

There must be more. Unfortunately, as may have guessed, these settings are more expensive than regular PA systems but the experience is superior.

I have listened to F1 in person in a 50-100 people hall. It was a live jazz performance and F1 sounded fantastic! Clear and crisp. It might not be the perfect speaker set for DJ-ing.

I have never heard a single PA in my entire life that can deliver clear/crisp audio. It's always muddy no matter how much money you throw at it. It is nowhere comparable to near-field monitors.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2853355 05/29/19 12:40 AM
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Thank you so much for the suggestions! That's helpful. I really appreciate it.

I'm actually now considering getting a 'single amplified speaker.'

Any you guys recommend for under $500?

Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2853637 05/29/19 04:21 PM
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$500 is not a lot to work with ...

If it were me, I'd go look for a single, used QSC K8.2 which is right around that point -- and I'd put it on a speaker pole behind me. That way, you could upgrade to a second one down the road.

An adequate pole line array (e.g. LD, Bose, etc.) will be a lot more than that, even if well used. I did get my Bose L1 Compact for $500 used, but that was an unusual circumstance.

Best of luck.


Life is too short to be playing bad music.

Practice: Bosie 200, Yam N3
Live: Nord Piano 4, Stage 3 Compact
Amps: QSC K.2s, RCF TT08-s, FA 12-ac, CPS SSv3
Support: STAY stands, X-Air mixers, Vent II, etc
Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2853779 05/30/19 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric Lee
Have a few questions regarding which speakers to use:

ADAM Audio A3X monitor ADAM Audio A3X 2-way monitor (pair) vs JBL 308?

I got the JBL 308. The sound isn't as strong (loud) as I was hoping. I'm looking for quality over loudness. It just doesn't have a "full" feel I was hoping for.

Is there a noticeable difference using a single monitor vs. the two-way R and L fixed output? I wonder if I'm compromisign the quality of sound mp11 is capable of.

Also, what is the difference using above monitors vs. a guitar amp?

I'm primarily wanting to be able to fill a large room (100-200 people) with quality piano sound for wedding/cockail party gigs. That's why I got the Kawai mp11!

Second priority is practicing repertoire at home in 12x12 room with high ceiling. The JBL 308 I just got sort of accomplishes this. Would a regular old guitar amp accomplish both objectives (gigs and home)? If so, any recommendations for models?

Trying to sort out which model to choose! Please help! Any recommendations appreciated. Many thanks.


Hi Eric,

The Adam A7X works well with the MP11 if you set it up correctly.

mp11_adam_a7x_grand_piano_voice_sounds_really_off

Kind regards,

Doug

Last edited by Doug M.; 05/30/19 05:08 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2853955 05/30/19 04:28 PM
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The Adams are great studio monitors, Doug, and wonderful for what they’re designed for - close-up personal listening - but they’d be completely hopeless for “filling a room of 100-200 people” which is the OP’s requirement. They are not a PA system!


Chris

Yamaha P-515, Yamaha Reface CP.
Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Cheshire Chris #2854098 05/31/19 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
The Adams are great studio monitors, Doug, and wonderful for what they’re designed for - close-up personal listening - but they’d be completely hopeless for “filling a room of 100-200 people” which is the OP’s requirement. They are not a PA system!


Oh crap, missed that... :-S


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2904176 10/24/19 07:26 PM
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Hello, this is my very first post in this forum so please feel free to guide me in the right direction.
Concerning speakers/monitors for your MP11se, please keep in mind that all new speakers/monitors, passive or active will need a break-in period before sounding their best. I bought a $8,000 pair of speakers years ago and took weeks breaking them in by playing a reference CD 24/7 at low volume at the beginning then gradually increased the volume. Avoid pounding on speakers before the break-in period.
For your 12'x12' room, a pair of 8" near-field monitors should be more than adequate; sound would bounce everywhere if you use larger PA speakers. To cover a room that can accommodate 200 people (depending on the shape of the room), you may want to consider using 2 12" PA speakers on stands. I personally wouldn't go smaller than 12" for that size venue because the low notes on a piano can put out a lot more sound than we think! Also, more speakers don't always necessarily mean louder in live situations; more speakers at lower volume can give you more even coverage without part of the audience getting blasted while others cannot hear you. I hope this helps!

Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2904213 10/24/19 09:16 PM
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If the budget allows for you, Genelec 8341 or 8331+subwoofer will be best choice. Their coaxial audio source allows close listening, ideal for DP player.
Or 3-way Adam S3V for distant positioning.


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VSL CFX&D274&Bluthner1895, Ivory2 ACD, Galaxy VintageD&StD, Bechstein DG, Embertone 1955Walker
Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
djvu10 #2904441 10/25/19 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by djvu10
Hello, this is my very first post in this forum so please feel free to guide me in the right direction.
Concerning speakers/monitors for your MP11se, please keep in mind that all new speakers/monitors, passive or active will need a break-in period before sounding their best. I bought a $8,000 pair of speakers years ago and took weeks breaking them in by playing a reference CD 24/7 at low volume at the beginning then gradually increased the volume. Avoid pounding on speakers before the break-in period.

This is actually considered a myth. There is no scientific evidence that a sound changes in any way after such a "break-in" period. It's more probable that our mind needs some adjustment to a new sound.

Re: What's a good speaker for Kawai mp11se?
Eric Lee #2904447 10/25/19 10:59 AM
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I've always been inclined to agree with that, Iaroslav.
But two years ago I got new Sennheiser 579 headphones as a gift.

I put them on. I tried them. And they sounded terrible!
I knew what headphones should sound like, and these sounded defective. Very dull with no treble.
Next day ... tried them again. Perfect. Radically different sound.

So what happened? Is that "break-in"? Or is that cosmic magic?

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