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Warranty The F- #2851857 05/24/19 03:28 PM
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kj85 Offline OP
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I have been looking at warranties offered by various DP brands in India and have come to a realization that most brands don't really trust the quality of their products and, while they are perfectly willing to collect thousands of dollars from you, they only offer the bare minimum in terms of warranty coverage.

Think of how HDD manufacturers, after the Thailand floods of 2011, slashed their five year warranties down to three years and then one year, and you get the picture:
Quote

In an email response to Computerworld, Seagate said it was reducing warranty periods as a way to standardize its terms "to be more consistent with those commonly applied throughout the consumer electronics and technology industries.

"By aligning to current industry standards, Seagate can continue to focus its investments on technology innovation and unique product features that drive value for our customers," the company said.

In other words, Seagate is redirecting money previously spent on upholding longer warranties in order to invest in product development.


To appreciate the ridiculousness of the situation, I wish to share my experience, just last week, with... a defective pedestal fan and how well the manufacturer responded.

(If you hate anecdotes, skip to the last paragraph of the comment.)

|------|

I bought a couple of $45 (free home delivery) BLDC pedestal fans from the manufacturer's website recently and they were couriered to me last week. After assembling them, I noticed that there was an issue with the oscillation mechanism of one of the units. So, I went to their website, registered for their warranty (two year onsite warranty), and called up the service helpline.

While they promised to send a technician within 48 hours, and the local service agency even appointed someone to visit me, the manufacturer realized that the agency didn't have the appropriate parts to fix the issue. So they called me up and told me that they would dispatch a new stem (which includes the digital control panel as well as rotor assembly) instead and collect the defective one. This week, a courier delivered the part to me and waited for couple of minutes while I reassembled the fan. It worked, and he left with the defective part.

In case someone thinks this is only because I discovered the problem within an hour of delivery, I also have 7-8 BLDC ceiling fans that I bought from the same manufacturer (three year onsite warranty) and have faced issues with a couple of them over the last year or so. Once you complain, a technician always shows up within 2-3 days.

All this, for a $45 product. Now, how do DP manufacturers who sell $500-$10,000 products treat their customers?

|------|

So, warranties on DPs:
  • Yamaha: In case of Electric Guitars, Electric Drums, Silent Violins, Electric Wind Instruments, Digital Piano, Disklavier, only the electronic circuitry is warranted for 12 Months. A dealer told me the warranty is onsite.
  • Kawai: The distributor has verbally assured me that onsite warranty will be provided for 12 months.
  • Casio: I talked to the DP representative at their regional office and he assured me that digital pianos are covered by a three year onsite warranty. I specifically asked him about the PX-160 that will be discontinued soon, and he told me they always have parts, and in case the instrument is not repairable, I'll be made whole. I don't recollect if they would refund the money or replace the instrument with something similar.
  • Korg: I thought they didn't have a service center in my city. Turns out, the store I have visited a couple of times is run by the Indian distributor of Korg. So, a one year warranty is available as long as you lug the instrument to the store.
  • Roland: While the distributor's representative told me that the instrument will have to be brought to their service centre in Mumbai to take advantage of their one year warranty, the Roland India website doesn't have a single reference to the word "warranty" unless it refers to software, which is not warrantied at all.

Last edited by kj85; 05/24/19 03:33 PM.
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Re: Warranty The F- [Re: kj85] #2851924 05/24/19 07:59 PM
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Can you summarize? What is the main point that you're making?

Re: Warranty The F- [Re: MacMacMac] #2851930 05/24/19 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Can you summarize? What is the main point that you're making?


1. The warranty period (perhaps, excepting Casio) is too short.
2. In cases like Yamaha, the coverage is only partial.

|----|

* Kawai USA offers a three year warranty on the CL, ES, EP, CE, KDP series and a five year warranty on the CP, CA, CS and CN series. Parts + Labor.
* Yamaha USA offers a three year warranty on the P and YDP series, and a five year warranty on the CLP series.
* Not only are Indian prices generally on the higher side, but the warranty period is 1/3 to 1/5 of what you might hope to get for a similar product in the US.
* Casio flips the script by providing a three year warranty in India and only a single year in the US.

Re: Warranty The F- [Re: kj85] #2851946 05/24/19 09:58 PM
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These are market-specific to some extent. Kawai gives 1 year labor, 3 parts on MP and VPC1 in North America, but 5/5 in Europe, while North American prices are 50% higher. Go figure.

But overall, sadly, this is the trend. People think they want quality, but in the end go for what’s cheaper and seems good enough. So cheap wins the market. For a different example, look at air travel. It’s a race to the bottom.

Re: Warranty The F- [Re: kj85] #2851977 05/25/19 02:48 AM
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@vb321: The question from kj85 was directed at me ... but you answered it well enough.

I'll augment your point by adding this: kj85 compared warranties across regions ... but he did not compare selling prices.
If I want to sell my product at a lower price in a given region I'll be less profitable ... unless I cut some costs, like WARRANTY.

Re: Warranty The F- [Re: MacMacMac] #2851987 05/25/19 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
but he did not compare selling prices.
If I want to sell my product at a lower price in a given region I'll be less profitable ... unless I cut some costs, like WARRANTY.


If you think, DPs (or electronics in general) are cheaper in India, you are mistaken. The trend here is to sell:
  • entry-level products at mid-level prices
  • mid-level products at premium prices
  • premium products at if-you-have-to-ask-then-you-cannot-afford-it prices


Most stores don't even offer discounts on the MRP. The one I visited yesterday has the same prices online and offline with a paltry (and perennial) 5% discount on certain Casio and Yamaha models. The Yamaha official dealer offers 10+% depending on how expensive your purchase is. Kawai offers 10% during sales.

Some examples. For the US and UK, I'll pick the price I see on some of the online websites (Musician's Friend, Bonners, Sweetwater etc). The Indian price here is after considering a discount of 10% on the List Price and inclusive of taxes. UK prices are, I believe, inclusive of VAT.

Code
Brand  | Model    | IND ₹   | UK £  | US $
-------|----------|---------|-------|------
Kawai  | ES110    |  54,000 |   473 |   699
Kawai  | ES8      | 122,000 | 1,107 | 1,649
Kawai  | CA48     | 152,000 | 1,479 | 2,099
Yamaha | P125     |  53,100 |   479 |   600
Yamaha | DGX660   |  69,300 |   640 |   799
Yamaha | CLP645   | 156,600 | 1,839 | 3,500
Roland | FP10 	  |  63,000 |   425 |   499
Roland | FP30     |  74,700 |   465 |   699
Casio  | CDP-S100 |  32,400 |   325 |   300
Casio  | PX-870   |  74,700 |   738 |   999


Normalized to USD using:
  • USD 1 = INR 70
  • USD 1 = GBP 0.80


Code
Brand  | Model    | IND $ | UK $  | US $
-------|----------|-------|-------|------
Kawai  | ES110    |   771 |   591 |   699
Kawai  | ES8      | 1,743 | 1,384 | 1,649
Kawai  | CA48     | 2,171 | 1,849 | 2,099
Yamaha | P125     |   759 |   599 |   600
Yamaha | DGX660   |   990 |   800 |   799
Yamaha | CLP645   | 2,237 | 2,299 | 3,500
Roland | FP10 	  |   900 |   531 |   499
Roland | FP30     | 1,067 |   581 |   699
Casio  | CDP-S100 |   463 |   406 |   300
Casio  | PX-870   | 1,067 |   923 |   999

Re: Warranty The F- [Re: vb321] #2851990 05/25/19 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by vb321
These are market-specific to some extent.

I am not denying that; more so in the Indian context where successive governments have worked towards "encouraging" local manufacturing by applying lower duties on components and raw materials and higher duties on finished products.

Originally Posted by vb321
But overall, sadly, this is the trend. People think they want quality, but in the end go for what’s cheaper and seems good enough. So cheap wins the market.

An electronic product without a full warranty is disposable in nature and should be priced accordingly. I don't buy anything over $100 that may require repairs and doesn't come with an appropriate warranty.

Re: Warranty The F- [Re: kj85] #2852000 05/25/19 06:09 AM
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I don't know anything about the buying and selling practices in India.

In the US sellers often offer discounts.

But I don't look for discounts. I make my own discount by making my own offer.
Many other people do, too.
Is that a common practice in India?

Anyway, the advertised price doesn't matter.
The figure on the price tag doesn't matter.
Only the actual selling price matters.

I have no way to know the selling price of a piano, other than the ones listed in the Prices Paid thread.
In that thread most listings are from the US, and only a few are from India.
So I have very limited means for evaluating differing selling prices in US/UK/India.

I'm away for the weekend, so I cannot consult any data on this subject.
But perhaps you could review the Prices Paid spreadsheet, tally all purchases in India, and publish your findings here?
Originally Posted by kj85
If you think, DPs (or electronics in general) are cheaper in India, you are mistaken. The trend here is to sell:
  • entry-level products at mid-level prices
  • mid-level products at premium prices
  • premium products at if-you-have-to-ask-then-you-cannot-afford-it prices


Most stores don't even offer discounts on the MRP. The one I visited yesterday has the same prices online and offline with a paltry (and perennial) 5% discount on certain Casio and Yamaha models. The Yamaha official dealer offers 10+% depending on how expensive your purchase is. Kawai offers 10% during sales.

Re: Warranty The F- [Re: MacMacMac] #2852064 05/25/19 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
But I don't look for discounts. I make my own discount by making my own offer.
Many other people do, too.
Is that a common practice in India?

With certain types of sellers (roadside vendors, mom-and-pop stores etc) and certain types of goods. But only because it is expected that the customer will bargain and so the offered prices are 1.5x-3x what they eventually expect to sell the product for. But no one I know walks into a, say, Samsung dealer's showroom and offers $1,500 for a $3,000 big screen TV. If they are offering a 10% discount, you can maybe talk them up to 15-20%. But after that, it becomes a question of egos, and they'd rather not make the sale to a "difficult" customer than reduce prices further.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
But perhaps you could review the Prices Paid spreadsheet, tally all purchases in India, and publish your findings here?

Will take a look at it.

|-----|

What I know is:
  • 49% of all digital pianos and 54% of all keyboard instruments sold worldwide in 2018 were produced by Yamaha.
  • Yamaha's musical instruments business has a core operating income ratio of 14%. Other companies might make a bit more or a bit less.
  • Electronics companies like AMD/Nvidia have gross margins of 30-60% and net income ratios of anywhere from 5-30%.
  • Pianos imported into India attract a duty (customs + gst + cess/surcharge) of 30.98 percent of the assessable value.


If I were to combine all this into a hypothetical computation, it would look something like this:

Code
Manufacturing cost: 70
Gross profit (30%)  30
----------------------
Dealer's Price	   100
Import Duties	    11 (Does not include IGST of 20 that can be
                        setoff against taxes collected from customer)
Gross profit (40%)  74
----------------------
Effective Price    185
GST (18%)           33
----------------------
MRP                218
----------------------


A 20% discount on the MRP still leaves the dealer with a 25% gross margin.

Re: Warranty The F- [Re: MacMacMac] #2852082 05/25/19 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
If I want to sell my product at a lower price in a given region I'll be less profitable ... unless I cut some costs, like WARRANTY.


Right, this is why I’m so puzzled by the Kawai pricing. How can VPC1 sell in Europe for $1200 with a 5/5 warranty when in the US it’s $1800 with a 1/3 warranty? Are there some sort of consumer protection regulations in Europe requiring those warranties? Are they effectively subsidized by the higher US prices?

Re: Warranty The F- [Re: kj85] #2852102 05/25/19 12:15 PM
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Yamaha offer a 5-year warranty in Europe (3 years initially, extended to 5 years when you register the device).


Chris

Yamaha P-515, Yamaha Reface CP.
Re: Warranty The F- [Re: vb321] #2852194 05/25/19 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by vb321
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
If I want to sell my product at a lower price in a given region I'll be less profitable ... unless I cut some costs, like WARRANTY.


Right, this is why I’m so puzzled by the Kawai pricing. How can VPC1 sell in Europe for $1200 with a 5/5 warranty when in the US it’s $1800 with a 1/3 warranty? Are there some sort of consumer protection regulations in Europe requiring those warranties? Are they effectively subsidized by the higher US prices?


The EU law states a consumer must have at least 2 years warranty protection against goods that are faulty, or don’t look or work as advertised.

That’s the minimum all EU countries must provide. Some countries in the EU might have additional laws making the guarantees longer.

The EU law for businesses states

Quote


When you sell a good or a service to a consumer online or via other means of distance communication (by telephone, mail order) or outside a shop (from a door-to-door salesperson), the consumer has the right to return the item or cancel the service within 14 days. This is sometimes referred to as the cooling-off period or the withdrawal period. No reason or justification has to be given by the consumer.

EU law also stipulates that you must give the consumer a minimum 2-year guarantee (legal guarantee) as a protection against faulty goods, or goods that don't look or work as advertised. In some countries national law may require you to provide longer guarantees.


After-sale responsibilities/faulty products


If the product you sold turns out to be faulty — or doesn't look or work as advertised — within the timeframe of the legal guarantee, you are responsible for this. In some countries this can also be the case if you are the manufacturer or importer.


When can your customer claim redress?

Be aware that you are legally bound by any public statements you make about your products, especially through advertisements or on labels.


If you are a retailer, your customers can ask for redress under the legal guarantee provided by EU law - if an item:

doesn't match the product description
has different qualities from the model advertised or shown to the client
is not fit for purpose - either its standard purpose or a specific purpose ordered by the customer which you accepted
doesn't show the quality and performance normal in products of the same type
wasn't installed correctly - either by you, or by the customer, due to shortcomings in the instructions
If you inform your customer that the product you are going to sell has quality problems, they cannot then claim redress from you about this particular defect.


What can your customer claim?

Your customers have the right to ask you to do any of the following without any charge (for postage, labour, material, etc.):

repair the product
replace the product
reduce the price
cancel the contract and reimburse them in full (in some countries, the sales contract cannot be cancelled if the fault is minor, e.g. scratch on a CD case)


Repair or replacement

In most countries there is a "hierarchy of remedies". This means that your customer must firstly request that you repair the product, or replace it if repair is not a viable option (e.g. too expensive). You must do this within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience for your customer.


Price reduction or full refund

Another option for your customer is that you give them a price reduction or a full refund, but only if repair or replacement:

is not possible
would be too expensive, given the nature of the product/defect
would be very inconvenient for the customer
cannot be completed by your business within a reasonable time


Additional guarantees

You can also offer the consumer an additional commercial guarantee (warranty). This can either be included in the price of the product or at an extra cost. This warranty does not replace the legal guarantee, which is always a minimum of 2 years, and you must inform the consumer that this will not affect their right to the legal guarantee.



Last edited by Ojustaboo; 05/25/19 05:35 PM.
Re: Warranty The F- [Re: kj85] #2852322 05/26/19 08:05 AM
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Re: Warranty The F- [Re: kj85] #2852364 05/26/19 11:02 AM
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Talked to the local Yamaha dealer as well as a product specialist (keyboard instruments) at Bajaao.com.

Yamaha has a service center in my city, and while the warranty only covers the electronics, you can pay for service if something else goes wrong (broken keys etc). I think I mentioned, in another thread, an old Clavinova 2XX that was awaiting refurbishment at the dealer's showroom. While it's an old instrument, the service center quoted a figure of about $100 to fix the problem with the keys. I believe the customer doesn't want to spend such a sum on an old DP. The point is, service is available from the official outlet for a long time and for older models, as long as you are willing to pay.

Bajaao (Hindi word for "Play") offers a one/two year premium warranty for all items they sell for an additional 3-10% of the MRP. For this, they pick up the packaged instrument at your place and ship it to their own Mumbai service center. If they cannot fix it, it is sent to the manufacturer's service center. And finally shipped back to you. They pay for shipping, parts and labor. Their service makes a lot of sense for Yamaha and Roland products, if you expect things to go wrong after the expiry of their 10-day return policy.


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