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Re: Roland FP10 Hi-Res Midi & Release Vel ??
MacMacMac #2817856 02/20/19 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
In other words "more is better"? Even if it isn't?


But it is.... we may not know why.. yet. Gombessa makes the strongest point here..... we humans have huge ability to sense minuscule differences... pretty amazing actually.... this BTW, is the underscoring of audiophile drives.

The engineering of technologies involving communications are all moving to more and faster (communications include voice tele-calls and the production/recording/playback of sound such as music). Those in technology understand you don't need a reason why first. New uses and value will emerge from new potential. Can you imagine if Antonie van Leeuwenhoek had to justify his expenditures to invent the microscope to a congressional committee? With tech, more is better for reasons we have yet to discover. But Gombessa has it in knowing that human perception capabilities are more amazing than we know.

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Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 02/20/19 09:53 AM.

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Re: Roland FP10 Hi-Res Midi & Release Vel ??
BlackKnight #2817860 02/20/19 09:55 AM
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PART 1
Do you really think the mechanism is sufficiently accurate to reproduce even 128 levels?
That is: If a machine strikes a key exactly the same way again and again ... will the instrument report the same MIDI velocity every time?

What cheap plastic mechanism would capable of that?
What changes need be made to extend its precision to thousands of levels?
As someone said in an earlier post ... you're just asking for more digits of noise.

PART 2
Show me an audience able to distinguish the loudness or the timbre from among thousands of MIDI levels.
You've already said that 128 is more than enough.
So the rest of the argument centers on the competitive "more is better" mantra.

SUMMARY
The capability isn't there because the need isn't there.
Show me the need first.

Re: Roland FP10 Hi-Res Midi & Release Vel ??
MacMacMac #2817867 02/20/19 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac

Do you really think the mechanism is sufficiently accurate to reproduce even 128 levels?
That is: If a machine strikes a key exactly the same way again and again ... will the instrument report the same MIDI velocity every time?

What cheap plastic mechanism would capable of that?


Nope, I don't know any of that. Which is why I think it would be great to have a repeatable test to see if it's the case. And honestly, I'm not sure if I would classify plastic as "cheap" in the sense you imply. Imo it's probably not the action (which invariably has "non-cheap" metal hammers) than the timing limits of the 2/3 sensor strip that ultimately determines the reliable resolution of the output?

But oddly, I find in this case I'm calling for more data and the argument against is that it's not needed because we're already operating in ignorance so that should be good enough? Not sure if I'm misunderstanding here (apologies if so).


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Re: Roland FP10 Hi-Res Midi & Release Vel ??
MacMacMac #2818004 02/20/19 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
PART 1
Do you really think the mechanism is sufficiently accurate to reproduce even 128 levels?
That is: If a machine strikes a key exactly the same way again and again ... will the instrument report the same MIDI velocity every time?

What cheap plastic mechanism would capable of that?
What changes need be made to extend its precision to thousands of levels?
As someone said in an earlier post ... you're just asking for more digits of noise.

PART 2
Show me an audience able to distinguish the loudness or the timbre from among thousands of MIDI levels.
You've already said that 128 is more than enough.
So the rest of the argument centers on the competitive "more is better" mantra.

SUMMARY
The capability isn't there because the need isn't there.
Show me the need first.

Oh no, not again the same red herring. Please stop with your techno-phobia and science-phobia. If you can't understand something that doesn't make it worthwhile for the people who understand the real world around them.

You seem to be reproducing the mistake that people used to make regarding "absolute pitch" versus "relative pitch". Most humans are bad at the "absolute pitch" but definitely much better at the "relative pitch".

The same argument pertains to the sound pressure or key velocity discussion. It is not the "absolute resolution" that is the limit of perception or muscle motion. It is a "differential resolution" that really matters and where there are the real limits.

Relative versus Absolute Pitch is fairly well settled issue both in the instrument sales and in the actual performance practice. Most people understand the differences and how lowering the time interval between the notes is critical to increasing the accuracy of perception. Why the same thing can't be said about the sound intensity?

The fact that original MIDI specification can represent only 127 discrete pitches was never used to argue that humans can only perceive or reproduce a discrete set of only 127 frequencies.

Last edited by 90125; 02/20/19 02:09 PM. Reason: clarification of old MIDI
Re: Roland FP10 Hi-Res Midi & Release Vel ??
BlackKnight #2818111 02/20/19 05:34 PM
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The main reason behind the hi res midi specification is technical. Digital instruments and midi controllers such as keyboards work by scanning their sensors at a given frequency rate. However, with the current serial midi 1.0 spec, a midi message can only be sent every 1.3 ms, so, even if the keyboard internally uses a higher scan rate, it cannot generate more midi messages. This actually means that if we play a 10 note chord with all notes played exactly at the same time, midi will generate 10 messages with a separation of 1.3 ms between them and there will be an overall difference of at least 13 ms between its first and last note/message. On the other hand, the data that can be transmitted in a midi message is limited to 7 bits, ie 127 values. So, if the raw sensor data uses a higher resolution then it cannot use the midi format internally to handle the sensor data. As a result of this, controllers use proprietary internal formats that are converted and quantized to the midi ranges before sending out the data.

To overcome this, Yamaha introduced an extended midi format in their Disklavier pianos in the early 2000s iirc. The midi XP format had 1024 note velocity levels and 255 pedal levels to match the ranges used internally by the instrument. What the midi association did in 2010 was to add a similar feature to the spec - and the reason there are 16k levels is because the midi message used to transport the velocity had 14 empty bits that could be used. The new midi 2 spec goes further and removes a number of other timing and resolution limitations, which may make possible to use the midi format as the internal format of a controller. So, this is about improving the internal design of midi devices and their interconnectivity. It is not about how hi res midi somehow improves the dynamics and expression of a dp...

Re: Roland FP10 Hi-Res Midi & Release Vel ??
BlackKnight #2818115 02/20/19 05:49 PM
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This discussion and its MANY predecessors focused on the the high-res aspects ... which never made any sense to me.

You point, especially the last sentence, finally (and for the first time on PW) provides a sensible reason for the new MIDI spec. Thanks for that.

Re: Roland FP10 Hi-Res Midi & Release Vel ??
Gombessa #2818197 02/20/19 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
[
If the mechanism can't reach the resolution but people CAN hear the difference, then I think it would actually be beneficial for VSTs to just jitter the input, and play a velocity of 60 randomly between 59.5 and 60.4, for instance. It's be comparable to accepting the input from a mechaniclsm that doesn't have the timing resolution in the first place


I made a very similar point in an earlier discussion. I actually suggested that possibly, we could even have coarser sensing than even 127 levels (say, 64 or 32), and then add random noise to that to create 127 levels - it may not be possible for either the player or the audience to tell the difference between that, and real 127 level sensing. (and perhaps the noise would not always be required)

Greg.

Re: Roland FP10 Hi-Res Midi & Release Vel ??
BlackKnight #2818243 02/21/19 04:08 AM
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@arc7arus : a plain MIDI link can’t exchange quickly MIDI events, but a USB link would more likely send HiRes velocities fastly enough.

If the device record a MIDI file internally, it won’t have a bandwidth limit. Then no proprietary format is needed.


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Re: Roland FP10 Hi-Res Midi & Release Vel ??
arc7urus #2818312 02/21/19 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
The main reason behind the hi res midi specification is technical. Digital instruments and midi controllers such as keyboards work by scanning their sensors at a given frequency rate. However, with the current serial midi 1.0 spec, a midi message can only be sent every 1.3 ms, so, even if the keyboard internally uses a higher scan rate, it cannot generate more midi messages. This actually means that if we play a 10 note chord with all notes played exactly at the same time, midi will generate 10 messages with a separation of 1.3 ms between them and there will be an overall difference of at least 13 ms between its first and last note/message. On the other hand, the data that can be transmitted in a midi message is limited to 7 bits, ie 127 values. So, if the raw sensor data uses a higher resolution then it cannot use the midi format internally to handle the sensor data. As a result of this, controllers use proprietary internal formats that are converted and quantized to the midi ranges before sending out the data.

Is this true for MIDI 1.0 over USB?

This is a quote of someone called "The MIDI Association". I recall he is one of the MIDI architects but I didn't save the link so can't prove it without searching. . .

"“Isn’t the baud rate too low and this leads to undesirable skewing/jitter, etc”

This is a very common misconception about MIDI. The MIDI protocol ( set of messages) is not tied to any single transport and MIDI’s speed depends on what transport it is on. Yes, 5 PIN DIN has a 31.25 KB baud rate, but MIDI over USB, Ethernet or on other transports is much faster.
Also part of the new MIDI 2.0 initiative are TimeStamps specifically designed to reduce jitter."

I have seen zero claims/tests that MIDI is running faster than 31.25KB in any consumer product (I suspect that some good digital pianos run faster for internal sounds but have no evidence).

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2...n-tighter-timing-backward-compatibility/

Last edited by newer player; 02/21/19 10:02 AM.
Re: Roland FP10 Hi-Res Midi & Release Vel ??
BlackKnight #2818398 02/21/19 01:48 PM
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On USB1.0, you have far more bandwidth, then in the same millisecond, you can send many events.

However, the typical USB1.0 pooling period is 1ms. Then, there is a lack of timing precision of about 1ms.

The MIDI1.0 protocol defines messages and hardware data link. No option was written about other datalink. (It was written in 1985...) Obviously, the messages are exchanged with many other datalinks (USB, Blutooth, IP-RTP...)


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Re: Roland FP10 Hi-Res Midi & Release Vel ??
Frédéric L #2818471 02/21/19 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
@arc7arus : a plain MIDI link can’t exchange quickly MIDI events, but a USB link would more likely send HiRes velocities fastly enough.

If the device record a MIDI file internally, it won’t have a bandwidth limit. Then no proprietary format is needed.


This has nothing to do with the bandwidth of the physical transport. USB, BT and other technologies can transport at speeds which are orders of magnitude above the midi requirements.

But the midi 1 protocol was designed as a serial protocol operating at 31.25 kbaud. Midi also lacks a connection negotiation protocol and timing/clock information. All of these are now part of midi 2. So, if a device transmits at a speed above the spec the communication will only work if both the sender and receiver devices are designed to do so. But if you connect a legacy midi device to a device tranmitting midi at high-speed, then messages will be lost.

Recording a midi is a separate discussion because it uses the SMF format, which includes timing information and allows to define simultaneous events. But an SMF cannot be used as the midi communication protocol between two devices. If you “play” a SMF that has simultaneous notes on one device and send the result to another device via midi, the simultaneous notes will be transmitted as a sequence of separate messages.

Re: Roland FP10 Hi-Res Midi & Release Vel ??
MacMacMac #2835852 04/05/19 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
I am not aware of the MIDI capabilities of the new PX-S1000 model since Casio seems not to have yet released its documentation. Note that hi-res MIDI and note-off velocity were only supported by the PX-360, 560 and 5-S. The entry model PX-160, which is now being replaced by the PX-S1000, did not support these two features.

From what I can tell, PX-160 supports Hi-Res MIDI for Note On, but does not support note off velocity. See page 8 at http://casioteka.ru/sites/default/files/px760_860_1500_160_ap260_460_midi_e_ru.pdf

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
And ... can anyone actually strike keys at all of those thousands of points ?
And just how does a note at velocity 19,384 sound different from one at velocity 19,385 ?

The question isn't whether there is value to having 16,384 possible values... the question is whether there is value to having more than 128. If you determine that even a 129th is valuable, then the next byte of MIDI data beyond what supports 128 necessarily supports up to 16,384 because each command must be either one byte or two bytes, you can't use something in between.

You do not need to be able to intentionally strike a key at every one of the available values for them to be valuable. What matters is that you hit it, not that you hit it as a function of superhuman control. Staying within the standard 127 (plus zero), let's say you can only reliably stay within 8 of what you "aim" for. Still, repeatedly aiming for 23 (yielding strikes between 15 and 31) will produce a different result than repeatedly aiming for 26 (yielding strikes between 18 and 34). Also, if someone were to say that a "margin of error" of 8 either way means that rounding each value to the nearest 8 would be sufficient since you'd be likely to be off by as much as that anyway (i.e. instead of 127 distinct values, we'd have about 16 values, i.e. 8, 16, 24, etc.), you'd would hear audible jumps when you shouldn't, and crescendos would be uneven sounding. I don't know how much benefit there is to more than 128, I'm just saying that "repeatability" or "intent" really isn't relevant. And remember, you need to have enough possible values that you cannot tell the difference between any two adjacent values. If you can tell a difference, you don't have enough gradations.

To me, the place it may be most useful is in adjusting velocity curves. People often talk about needing to adjust a curve because, for example, they either cannot get to ff easily enough, or because they get to ff too easily. Well once you adjust the curve, you end up with more possible values at one end of the spectrum, but they have to come from somewhere, so you've taken away an equal number of gradations elsewhere. If 127 is "just enough" for even control throughout, then as soon as you adjust a curve to have more control somewhere, you won't have enough somewhere else, unless we have more than 127 possible values to play with.

Re: Roland FP10 Hi-Res Midi & Release Vel ??
BlackKnight #2851575 05/23/19 06:14 PM
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G'day Mr Knight, up to where I stopped reading this thread your question about release velocity hadn't been answered. I wanted to know the same thing (which is how I found this forum and thread) so when I found the answer I came back to let you know.

Yes, the FP-10 does have release velocity. That is, according to https://www.pianobuyer.com/Articles/Detail/ArticleId/306/Review-Roland-FP-10-Digital-Piano

I also found interesting info about Roland keyboards here: https://www.pianodreamers.com/roland-fp10-review/

Cheers!

Re: Roland FP10 Hi-Res Midi & Release Vel ??
Throwawayname #2851651 05/24/19 03:23 AM
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My FP30 sends release velocity. Realized that when running the Pianoteq calibration assistant.

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