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Re: Comparison between Yamaha CLP-695GP and Yamaha N series? [Re: Pianoguy_SWE] #2850917
05/21/19 11:23 PM
05/21/19 11:23 PM
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Haven't tried a 675.
Have heard that it's not good.
Call it a Grand Turd.

Brilliant analysis.

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Re: Comparison between Yamaha CLP-695GP and Yamaha N series? [Re: johnfred] #2850965
05/22/19 04:14 AM
05/22/19 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by johnfred


It's probably the most divisive action that's come on the market in quite a while. Some people love it, and others say it feels too weird. It's an interesting situation. The version in the CLP-675 is missing the counterweights that are in the 685 and 695. That strikes me as really weird. It's like a broken version as opposed to a lower end alternative.



I think they released the Grand Turd action in the Clp 675, and then when it was not well received, they quickly threw some counterweights on it, and called it good, thus leading to the 685. I have not played the 675, but everything I’ve read says to stay away.[/quote]

The exact opposite of what I am my dealer find when actually playing them. So I think the 685 is the Grand Turd. Certainly the strangest action that I have ever encountered in 70 years!


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Comparison between Yamaha CLP-695GP and Yamaha N series? [Re: Pianoguy_SWE] #2850977
05/22/19 05:06 AM
05/22/19 05:06 AM
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I tested the 675 for about 20 minutes and it made my hands hurt it was that bad. Bears no relation to any acoustic piano I've ever played, and it's a huge shame because as others have said the sound is pretty good (especially the Bosendorfer).


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Comparison between Yamaha CLP-695GP and Yamaha N series? [Re: Pianoguy_SWE] #2851068
05/22/19 10:40 AM
05/22/19 10:40 AM
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Sounds like I offended some 675 owners. Sorry, that was not my intention. I really just wanted to somehow work “ Grand Turd” into the conversation. I’m sure the action is just fine in this model. Counterweights. were just added to make it better smile

Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: Pianoguy_SWE] #2851198
05/22/19 03:15 PM
05/22/19 03:15 PM
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I measured the weight of the keys at the low and high ends of the keyboard using a few nuts, brackets and bolts I had weighed in at my digital houshold scale. Result:

*Downweight (the weight required to press down a key) = 73 grams for lower keys, and 62 for the high
*Upweight (the weight required to prevent the key from going up from a depressed state) = 56 grams for the lower keys, and 35 grams for the higher keys

An Avant Grand has a downweight of approximately 60-70 grams, so in terms of ligth/heavy action, they seem to be approximately similar to the Grand Touch action of the 685/695. Yamaha’s acoustic grands are reported to be roughly equal to the Avant Grands.

Steinways, on the other hand, are extremely light compared to most other pianos: they can have a downweight as low as 48-54 grams and an upweight of 20-30.

So in conclusion, do the 685/695 have a heavy action compared to acoustic pianos and other digital pianos? That depends of what you are comparing with: they seem to be somewhat similar to Yamaha AG and other Yamaha acoustic grands but, like most other pianos, they are heavier than an average Steinway.

Is a heavier action a downside? Not necessarily: it depends much on your own taste and style. Many piano teachers recommend heavier actions to their students because that will help the student to strengthen his fingers.
Personally, I grew up with a Schimmel acoustic grand piano at home: an instrument with a fantastic tone, but the action was heavy as a Soviet tractor.
To me, the action on the CLP-695GP feels light in comparison, so I don’t mind it at all. Someone who grew up with a Stein in the livingroom might have another opinion, though.

A webpage discussing this and other aspects of piano actions in more detail:

http://www.pianofinders.com/educational/touchweight.htm

Last edited by Pianoguy_SWE; 05/22/19 03:18 PM.

Yamaha CLP-695GP at home.

Composers: Bach, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Mendelssohn.

Performers: David Fray, Jean Rondeau, Glenn Gould, Evgeny Kissin, Daniel Barenboim
Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: Colin Miles] #2851206
05/22/19 03:44 PM
05/22/19 03:44 PM
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Quote

I think they released the Grand Turd action in the Clp 675, and then when it was not well received, they quickly threw some counterweights on it, and called it good, thus leading to the 685. I have not played the 675, but everything I’ve read says to stay away.


Interesting theory. But iirc the CLP-685 and 675 were released at the same time, as Yamaha always does with their CLP lineup. There was no attempt at a "quick fix" and no indication that Yamaha sees anything wrong with the GrandTouch action.

Plus, the previous generation, the CLP-575, which shares the NWX action with the CLP-585, also lacks counterweights that the latter has. It's simply how Yamaha has historically differentiated the actions between their best and next-best offerings in the line.

BTW Colin, may want to edit your post as it seems like you make the above quote smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: Gombessa] #2851232
05/22/19 05:46 PM
05/22/19 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa


BTW Colin, may want to edit your post as it seems like you make the above quote smile

Can't edit it. Yes - we found the 685 very 'strange' not the 675. A bit like wading through treacle and not like any acoustic I have ever played. But it seems some people experience the exact opposite! There you go.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: Pianoguy_SWE] #2851667
05/24/19 06:13 AM
05/24/19 06:13 AM
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I tried the CLP 695 yesterday. I wasn't impressed by both the CFX and Bosendorfer sounds at all. The CFX was better but still sounded lacking.

Action wise, it felt "mushy", which is a word i've seen here before when the Kawai GF action gets mentioned as well.

Tomorrow i'm going to test the CA78 which has the GFII action and hopefully that will give me an idea of what the MP11SE action is like...because i'm shopping for one!

Last edited by RobR; 05/24/19 06:14 AM.
Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: RobR] #2851775
05/24/19 11:53 AM
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Well, here is an actual comparison of the sound of the MP11 (using the same sound engine as the C78, I beleive?) and the Yamaha CLP 685. It's the guy from Bonners music store again.



The Kawai actions are somewhat lighter, while it seems that Yamaha is aiming to build actions somewhat heavier in both their digital and their acoustic product lines. Maybe this is what you tried to describe when you wrote about the "mushy" quality you felt?
I'm also not quite sure what "mushy" actually means in terms of measurable physical properties? It would be interesting to see you elaborate on that.


Yamaha CLP-695GP at home.

Composers: Bach, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Mendelssohn.

Performers: David Fray, Jean Rondeau, Glenn Gould, Evgeny Kissin, Daniel Barenboim
Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: Pianoguy_SWE] #2851778
05/24/19 12:15 PM
05/24/19 12:15 PM
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My version of "mushy" : Light, passive resistance on rebound (applies only to the 695), soft, tender. Of all the P-series and the CLP i tried yesterday, all of their actions were too light for my tastes. I guess that sums it up that i will NEVER be friends with the action that Yamaha uses on their digitals.

On the other hand, i really liked the action on the ES8. If the GF action is as heavy as the ES8 action, i'm sold. Tomorrow i will find out (trying the CA78).

Last edited by RobR; 05/24/19 12:22 PM.
Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: RobR] #2851783
05/24/19 12:29 PM
05/24/19 12:29 PM
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Well, in the video linked above, the guy from Bonners music store measures the touchweight of both the Kawai and the Yamaha, and it turns out that the Kawai had a "lighter" action? -Look at around 4:30 in the video above.

Please report back tomorrow when you've tried it: it would interesting to hear what you think. A friend of mine is planning to buy a DP for himself, and he wants to know a little more about the new Kawai models. Your input would be appreciated =)


Yamaha CLP-695GP at home.

Composers: Bach, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Mendelssohn.

Performers: David Fray, Jean Rondeau, Glenn Gould, Evgeny Kissin, Daniel Barenboim
Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: Pianoguy_SWE] #2851808
05/24/19 02:01 PM
05/24/19 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianoguy_SWE
Well, here is an actual comparison of the sound of the MP11 (using the same sound engine as the C78, I beleive?) and the Yamaha CLP 685.


IIRC, the CA-78 includes the sound engine of the MP11 (for the EX Concert Grand) as well as the MP11SE (for the SK-EX and SK-5), but it also has Kawai's latest "SK-EX Rendering/Pianist Mode" rendering engine with 88-key resonances. So assuming Bonners tested with the default sound, the CA-78 should be 2 generations ahead of the MP11.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: Gombessa] #2851854
05/24/19 04:23 PM
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Ok, and this "SK/EX Rendering/Pianist mode" is something similar to Yamahas "Virtual resonance modeling", simulating string and cabinet resonance, I assume?


Yamaha CLP-695GP at home.

Composers: Bach, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Mendelssohn.

Performers: David Fray, Jean Rondeau, Glenn Gould, Evgeny Kissin, Daniel Barenboim
Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: Pianoguy_SWE] #2851922
05/24/19 08:53 PM
05/24/19 08:53 PM
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You must have hands made of concrete. Yamaha digitals are known to be heavy. Some say too heavy.

If you find them too light then I doubt you'll ever find a suitable digital.

Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: MacMacMac] #2851934
05/24/19 10:10 PM
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”Hands made of concrete”?

A short reminder to put things into perspective:

1) Yamaha is the worlds biggest manufacturer of digital pianos. For a number of good reasons. All the millions of people who appreciate them don’t do so because they have ”hands made of concrete”.
2) I didn’t say I find them too light: I wrote that I find the action light compared to the, very heavy, Schimmel grand I played on as a kid. This action feels just right for me. Of course, or I wouldnt have bought it.
3) Roughly 10 grams of downweight seems to be the difference Between a Kawai and a Yamaha action: this is a matter of personal preference that has little or nothing to do with actual playability.
Personally I dislike the light actions: they tend to give the pianist less control. Other prefer the light actions because they make it easier to play fast passages. what people prefer depends on finger strength and personal taste.

I think making these comparisons and diving into the specs of different pianos are rather interesting, as long as people just describe the sound and mechanical properties of their instruments.
If we all do, threads like this may actually guide someone to a better piano purchase, suited to their personal need.

But these ”clever” comments, like the one above, or various emotional outbursts don’t provide any useful information for anyone else, and is best avoided. Please?

......but sure, I can see where this thread is going...... 🙄

Last edited by Pianoguy_SWE; 05/24/19 10:14 PM.

Yamaha CLP-695GP at home.

Composers: Bach, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Mendelssohn.

Performers: David Fray, Jean Rondeau, Glenn Gould, Evgeny Kissin, Daniel Barenboim
Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: Pianoguy_SWE] #2852222
05/25/19 09:57 PM
05/25/19 09:57 PM
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Still waiting for that Classical piece Pianoguy SWE. I have not been able to find any classical pieces being demonstrated on the 695, and from some of your previous posts, it seems like you might be familiar with a few classical songs. I have viewed every video on YouTube, and I am a little disappointed with the lack of selection on Clp 695 . The dealer I am purchasing through did say I could swap to a different piano if I wasn’t fully satisfied, but what a headache it would be to load it up and return it to a store over an hour away. It is unfortunate that you can not sample all these pianos in one place, and it is nearly impossible to find any of the digital baby grands in any store near me. Reviews/ videos is sometimes all we have to make a decision.

Thanks for all the data you have given so far. Interesting with your findings in key weight.
The difference of 10 grams in weight really seems insignificant in terms of playability. Time will tell, but someone mentioned heavy key action is better for Classical playing anyways. I have not heard that before.

Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: johnfred] #2852233
05/25/19 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by johnfred
Still waiting for that Classical piece Pianoguy SWE. I have not been able to find any classical pieces being demonstrated on the 695, and from some of your previous posts, it seems like you might be familiar with a few classical songs. I have viewed every video on YouTube, and I am a little disappointed with the lack of selection on Clp 695 .


I’ve played the piano since i was 6 years old. Time flies. But I’m just another amateur who enjoys playing at home, and I don’t think I’m good enough to start publishing ”performances”. Maybe I’ll change my mind about that some day, but not today.

The dealer at the music shop told me that there aren’t too many of these instruments around: he said that only 5-10 of these pianos were shipped to Europe last year. I presume he got that figure from Yamaha’s people.
That should account for the lack of YouTube videos: I’ve seen some stuff being published by a guy named ”from rubbish to Rachmaninoff”, playing Für Elise and some Bach. Except for that, some promo material and NAMM videos seems to be the only thing out there.

The lack of material was the very reason I started this thread to begin with: I’ve been trying to fill the gaps, so to speak. 😊

Last edited by Pianoguy_SWE; 05/25/19 11:41 PM.

Yamaha CLP-695GP at home.

Composers: Bach, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Mendelssohn.

Performers: David Fray, Jean Rondeau, Glenn Gould, Evgeny Kissin, Daniel Barenboim
Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: Pianoguy_SWE] #2859957
06/18/19 10:32 AM
06/18/19 10:32 AM
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Finally received my Clp 695 and have been playing it for only about 5 days at this point.

It is a little early to give a full on review, but my first impressions would agree with Pianoguys review.

The action is pretty solid considering it is artificial in nature, and it is by far the best of the Clavinova series. As some have pointed out, it is slightly heavier than the real grands I have played on, but this should not be a deal breaker as my fingers are already adjusting. I can already tell in the short amount of time that I have practiced, that I am able to play with more feeling and emotion than was ever possible on my old CLP 465. The noticed the keys themselves have a lot better grip and my ability to play fast and more accurately has increased dramatically . Yamaha has built a really fine instrument, and I am finally relieved to know I made a good decision.


At the price point of the 695, I would say it is a good middle ground for those wanting a realistic grand piano without paying the $14000 price tag on the Avantgrand series. I have played the N3x and it is definitely better in feel and sound, but I could not justify paying $9000 more for maybe 20% better quality. Maybe the next upgrade for me!

Thanks for all the info Pianoguy swe, and if anyone has a question about this particular piano, I would love to help you out. I would also be able to post a video if anyone was interested in seeing or hearing the piano in action.

Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: johnfred] #2859963
06/18/19 10:45 AM
06/18/19 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by johnfred
I would love to help you out. I would also be able to post a video if anyone was interested in seeing or hearing the piano in action.


Yes please!

Re: Comment on light VS heavy actions: [Re: johnfred] #2859964
06/18/19 10:45 AM
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Congrats on the new piano! Hope it brings you years of joy.

Originally Posted by johnfred

At the price point of the 695, I would say it is a good middle ground for those wanting a realistic grand piano without paying the $14000 price tag on the Avantgrand series. I have played the N3x and it is definitely better in feel and sound, but I could not justify paying $9000 more for maybe 20% better quality. Maybe the next upgrade for me!


One small correction to this. The AG series actually starts around $8000 (for the older N2), and $8500 for the new N1X. Technically speaking, the NU1X is now also an AvantGrand, and is significantly cheaper (though it has an upright action rather than a grand).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
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