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Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850823
05/21/19 04:46 PM
05/21/19 04:46 PM
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lorez Offline
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So it turns out I like the Yamaha CFX from a 635, not surprising since I own a P-515 and after I bought the triple pedal unit I was forced to switch to the internal sounds to utilize half pedaling (none of the VSTs I own for iPad support it). At first I didn’t like it at all, then I began to appreciate it. Now I actually prefer it to my VSTs. The Petrof is a surprise to me. I’m not familiar with the instrument but at least it’s Pianoteq so it should be amazingly playable.

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Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850851
05/21/19 06:17 PM
05/21/19 06:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,502
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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Can anyone add a better piano to this test? Such as the CLP685?

I ask that because I'm finding the CLP635 tested here as being only marginally better than my 2005-vintage CLP240.
As I described it earlier: Thin, like a cheap digital. Not at all impressive.

I'd like to hear what the high-end Clav sounds like.

Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850879
05/21/19 08:24 PM
05/21/19 08:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,027
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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Modified the midi file.... just a wee bit... Employing a secret sample:

https://www.dropbox.com/l/scl/AACoyDA1mWYvcpmLh7XQ9ul0vT04GBEa6U0


That's a crazy-long url.

I just ran the file and got heavy clipping in the loud section.... I can fix that... my bad.

Also, the pedaling is WAY off in some places, which obviously can be fixed, as well.

Last edited by johnlewisgrant; 05/21/19 08:31 PM.

J. S. Bach Well-tempered Clavier, complete preludes and fugues (with significant MIDI analysis):
https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant/sets


Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2851066
05/22/19 10:35 AM
05/22/19 10:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 612
Celestis
Granyala Offline
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Celestis
As promised, the name and settings of my renders:


Garritan CFX full

01 - standard player
02 - standard classic
03 - standard contemporary
04 - classic soft and cozy


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: kj85] #2851089
05/22/19 11:25 AM
05/22/19 11:25 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 152
India
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kj85 Offline
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Originally Posted by kj85
Originally Posted by StasNick
Yes, of course. Here is a new screenshot


Thanks. Still sounds very different from your sample. Unless, I am making some obvious mistake, I don't see how two renders of the same midi file using the same settings in the same VST instrument can be so different.

It's after midnight here. In the morning, I'll upload screenshots of my settings as well as a render of your midi file using said settings.


My screenshots:

Tone:
[Linked Image]

Anatomy:
[Linked Image]


And the rendered audio:
"The Grandeur" rendering

Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2851175
05/22/19 02:24 PM
05/22/19 02:24 PM
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nax Offline
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Thank you for adding the Garritan CFX. I suspected the Garritan because of the level of reverb.

If someone could add the Ivory II American D, then I would do a re-shuffle of all, so that one can do a blind test again (even though it is not really blind if you have a good memory of the sound).

Last edited by nax; 05/22/19 02:24 PM.
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: MacMacMac] #2851191
05/22/19 03:02 PM
05/22/19 03:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 28
Russia
StasNick Offline OP
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Can anyone add a better piano to this test? Such as the CLP685?


Yes, it would be great to hear other digital pianos (including Casio, Roland and Kawai).
But I'm not sure that the CLP 685 sound engine is fundamentally different from other instruments in this series (although I could be wrong).


I started learning to play the piano in November 2017.
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-635 | SoundCloud >>
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: Granyala] #2851195
05/22/19 03:10 PM
05/22/19 03:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 28
Russia
StasNick Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Granyala
As promised, the name and settings of my renders:


Granyala, thank you for your test!
I suspected it was a VST. But I did not like any of the samples. And I remembered that I once tested the Garritan CFX and concluded that this is not the best VST with the Yamaha CFX timbre (in my opinion), so it was removed a long time ago and did not even use it in this test.
But number 1 and number 2 would probably be good if the reverb was much smaller.


I started learning to play the piano in November 2017.
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-635 | SoundCloud >>
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: lorez] #2851199
05/22/19 03:24 PM
05/22/19 03:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 28
Russia
StasNick Offline OP
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Originally Posted by lorez
So it turns out I like the Yamaha CFX from a 635, not surprising since I own a P-515 and after I bought the triple pedal unit I was forced to switch to the internal sounds to utilize half pedaling (none of the VSTs I own for iPad support it). At first I didn’t like it at all, then I began to appreciate it. Now I actually prefer it to my VSTs. The Petrof is a surprise to me. I’m not familiar with the instrument but at least it’s Pianoteq so it should be amazingly playable.


The built-in Clavinova engine has many advantages (I compared it with many third-party VSTs): support for the half-pedals, beautiful timbre, great dynamics and excellent response to keystrokes. In addition, there is even support for Key-off velocity's MIDI commands (Pianoteq also has this, but if you use the standalone version), this trifle adds realism to the game, simulating different string sounds at different key-off speeds. Well, the main advantage: to start the game you need 8-10 seconds from switching on smile
But there are also disadvantages that I found: samples are not recorded in the highest quality (no 24 bits and no at least 48 kHz), during post-processing you can hear that the recordings are not perfect and there is noise (very quiet, but it is), except In addition, the built-in reverb is just awful (I always turn it off). But this does not affect the game live (for which the tool was created), but rather a claim to Yamaha for the future.


I started learning to play the piano in November 2017.
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-635 | SoundCloud >>
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: nax] #2851572
05/23/19 06:59 PM
05/23/19 06:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 95
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Craig Richards Offline
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Originally Posted by nax
Thank you for adding the Garritan CFX. I suspected the Garritan because of the level of reverb.

If someone could add the Ivory II American D, then I would do a re-shuffle of all, so that one can do a blind test again (even though it is not really blind if you have a good memory of the sound).


I have Ivory 2.5 American D. Will render an audio file now. Can I upload the file directly to the thread?


Pianist, Composer & Arranger
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2851578
05/23/19 07:40 PM
05/23/19 07:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 95
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Craig Richards Offline
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Here's Ivory 2.5 ACD (a downloadable 24bit 44.1 WAV file):

https://soundcloud.com/pianoproducer-online/ivory-25-acd-chopin-op28-no-4/s-PVuAI

I used Ivory's built in EQ & Reverb.

PS: How can I add screenshot images of my settings to my post?


Pianist, Composer & Arranger
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: Craig Richards] #2851586
05/23/19 08:15 PM
05/23/19 08:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 152
India
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kj85 Offline
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Originally Posted by Craig Richards
PS: How can I add screenshot images of my settings to my post?


Upload it somewhere (imgur etc) and use the image url within "img" tags.

Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: kj85] #2851644
05/24/19 03:27 AM
05/24/19 03:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 95
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Craig Richards Offline
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Originally Posted by kj85
Originally Posted by Craig Richards
PS: How can I add screenshot images of my settings to my post?


Upload it somewhere (imgur etc) and use the image url within "img" tags.


Here's my Ivory 2.5 American Concert D settings:

https://imgur.com/dovZUmY

https://imgur.com/ZHMSSsv

Last edited by Craig Richards; 05/24/19 03:29 AM.

Pianist, Composer & Arranger
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2851655
05/24/19 04:42 AM
05/24/19 04:42 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 31
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nax Offline
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Thanks a lot for adding the Ivory. I like the sound, but at 1:18 it seems that the sustain of the bass note is not the same as on others, maybe an issue with the midi pedal data.

I did an automatic re-shuffling of all files (hopefully without errors):

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/80r5kunfe21ddzx/AADEV84ZdOLLNb8uqZ8pkGx-a?dl=0

Click below for the new list of VSTs.


01 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Upright Yamaha SU7 (with compression and reverb, v1)
02 - Pianoteq - Steingraeber (E-272)
03 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Yamaha CFX (with compression and reverb, v1)
04 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Upright Yamaha SU7 (original, without processing)
05 - VST - C. Bechstein Digital Grand ---01
06 - Pianoteq - Ant Petrof (Prelude)
07 - Garritan CFX full - standard contemporary
08 - Garritan CFX full - standard player
09 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Yamaha CFX (original, without processing)
10 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Bosendorfer (original, without processing)
11 - Ivory 2.5 - American Concert D
12 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Bosendorfer (with de-noising, compression and reverb, v2)
13 - Garritan CFX full - classic soft and cozy
14 - Pianoteq - Grotrian (Concert Royal)
15 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Bosendorfer (with compression and reverb, v1)
16 - Garritan CFX full - standard classic
17 - Pianoteq - Bechstein DG (Prelude)
18 - VST - Noire Pure
19 - VST - The Hammersmith
20 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Yamaha CFX (with de-noising, compression and reverb, v2)
21 - Pianoteq - Steinway B (Prelude)
22 - VST - The Grandeur
23 - Pianoteq - Steinway D (Classical)
24 - VST - Noire Felt

Last edited by nax; 05/24/19 04:42 AM.
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: MacMacMac] #2857745
06/12/19 10:39 AM
06/12/19 10:39 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 34
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pianophil Offline
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7 - Pianoteq - Steinway D (Classical)
Originally Posted by MacMacMac

7 - Not too bad, but not as good as 5.


8 - Pianoteq - Steingraeber (E-272)
Originally Posted by MacMacMac

8 - Sounds good, but it lacks stereo spread.


10 - Pianoteq - Ant Petrof (Prelude)
Originally Posted by MacMacMac

10 - Refreshing after hearing those veiled, muffled pianos. But the sound placement moves around oddly.


Thank you for the kind words MacMacMac, their value is increased by there rarity wink. I was really pretty happy to see that finally you like the sound of some instruments in Pianoteq (of course not all of them!).

Philippe (Modartt)

Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: pianophil] #2857754
06/12/19 11:01 AM
06/12/19 11:01 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,212
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by pianophil
Thank you for the kind words MacMacMac, their value is increased by there rarity wink. I was really pretty happy to see that finally you like the sound of some instruments in Pianoteq (of course not all of them!).

Philippe (Modartt)

Yes, shocking, all things considered smile

Philippe, can you settle a controversy for us that mcontraveos raised on another thread? Were actual physical Steinway D/B pianos used in the actual modeling work during the development of the Steinway D & B VIs in Pianoteq? Or was the work entirely done using recordings of those pianos?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2857761
06/12/19 11:12 AM
06/12/19 11:12 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,212
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by pianophil
Thank you for the kind words MacMacMac, their value is increased by there rarity wink. I was really pretty happy to see that finally you like the sound of some instruments in Pianoteq (of course not all of them!).

Philippe (Modartt)

Yes, shocking, all things considered smile

It's my belief that in double-blind tests over time, not only will modeled VIs pass "Turing tests" with sampled VIs, but VIs in general will pass Turing tests against acoustical pianos. The differences become slighter and slighter with time until it will be hard for non-experts to distinguish them aurally.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2857771
06/12/19 11:34 AM
06/12/19 11:34 AM
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CyberGene Offline
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Sample based pianos have long passed the Turing-test against real pianos when only listening to recordings. Pianoteq not so much, or at least I believe so and would bet that I can recognize a Pianoteq recording vs a real grand piano.

This particular test here contains a limited number of pianos, mostly Pianoteq and mostly edited versions of sounds from a Yamaha CLP which isn't the best piano sound frankly speaking, despite me owning a Yamaha digital piano smile It's slightly sad some established sample-based VST-s are missing, such as Garritan CFX, Vintage D, VSL libraries, Ivory, etc. Noire is IMO one of the bad examples.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2857800
06/12/19 01:23 PM
06/12/19 01:23 PM
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Posts: 9,502
Raleigh, North Carolina
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Referring to something as not too bad, or better than something much worse is a bit short of high praise, yes? smile
Originally Posted by pianophil
Thank you for the kind words , their value is increased by there rarity wink. I was really pretty happy to see that finally you like the sound of some instruments in Pianoteq (of course not all of them!).
And those were my highest rated of the PT's.

I found the others to be ...
- muffled, and some noises.
- refreshing after hearing those veiled, muffled pianos. But the sound placement moves around oddly.
- what's with the weird noises?
- how do you spell "eh"?
- this has a very artificial sound.

And I gave highest marks to my every-day piano, the Grandeur.
And lowest to the native Clav sounds from the 635. No surprise there either.

Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2857804
06/12/19 01:30 PM
06/12/19 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by StasNick
Many thanks to everyone who took part in this experiment. This gives a lot of information to think about.

It is time to reveal the names of the instruments.
(Warning: if you want to pass the blind test, then do not look under this spoiler!):


  • 01 - VST - C. Bechstein Digital Grand ---01
  • 02 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Bosendorfer (with compression and reverb, v1) ---02
  • 03 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Yamaha CFX (with compression and reverb, v1) ---03
  • 04 - VST - Noire Felt ---04
  • 05 - VST - The Grandeur ---05
  • 06 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Upright Yamaha SU7 (with compression and reverb, v1) ---06
  • 07 - Pianoteq - Steinway D (Classical) ---07
  • 08 - Pianoteq - Steingraeber (E-272) ---08
  • 09 - Pianoteq - Grotrian (Concert Royal) ---09
  • 10 - Pianoteq - Ant Petrof (Prelude) ---10
  • 11 - Pianoteq - Bechstein DG (Prelude) ---11
  • 12 - Pianoteq - Steinway B (Prelude) ---12
  • 13 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Bosendorfer (original, without processing) ---13
  • 14 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Upright Yamaha SU7 (original, without processing) ---14
  • 15 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Yamaha CFX (original, without processing) ---15
  • 16 - VST - The Hammersmith ---16
  • 17 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Bosendorfer (with de-noising, compression and reverb, v2) ---17
  • 18 - VST - Noire Pure ---18
  • 19 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Yamaha CFX (with de-noising, compression and reverb, v2) ---19



In addition, I added 4 more files (with new instruments): these are numbers from 16 to 19:
Test audio files (OGG) >>
Test audio files (MP3) >>



Very good! My fave was 17, the yamaha Bosie. I didn't score 1,4,5,15. The rest were fine in their own way. Tweaking makes a huge difference.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
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