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Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850010
05/19/19 01:53 PM
05/19/19 01:53 PM
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I don't know if I have a clear cut winner but I like 8, 12, 13 and 15.
I still will take Pianoteq for its playability, there is just something about the interaction while playing it that I love. YMMV


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
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Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850026
05/19/19 02:44 PM
05/19/19 02:44 PM
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1 - Pretty good.
2 - Veiled. The piano isn't here, it's elsewhere. Is this Pianoteq?
3 - Same comment as #2.
4 - Veiled.
5 - Much better than the previous three.
6 - Thin, like a cheap digital.
7 - Not too bad, but not as good as 5.
8 - Sounds good, but it lacks stereo spread.
9 - Muffled, and some noises.
10 - Refreshing after hearing those veiled, muffled pianos. But the sound placement moves around oddly.
11 - As oivavoi said, what's with the weird noises?
12 - How do you spell "eh"?
13 - I'm begin to tire of this exercise.
14 - As oivavoi said, this has a very artificial sound.
15 - As I write this I realize that I didn't listen to #15.

Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850390
05/20/19 12:05 PM
05/20/19 12:05 PM
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Many thanks to everyone who took part in this experiment. This gives a lot of information to think about.

It is time to reveal the names of the instruments.
(Warning: if you want to pass the blind test, then do not look under this spoiler!):


  • 01 - VST - C. Bechstein Digital Grand ---01
  • 02 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Bosendorfer (with compression and reverb, v1) ---02
  • 03 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Yamaha CFX (with compression and reverb, v1) ---03
  • 04 - VST - Noire Felt ---04
  • 05 - VST - The Grandeur ---05
  • 06 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Upright Yamaha SU7 (with compression and reverb, v1) ---06
  • 07 - Pianoteq - Steinway D (Classical) ---07
  • 08 - Pianoteq - Steingraeber (E-272) ---08
  • 09 - Pianoteq - Grotrian (Concert Royal) ---09
  • 10 - Pianoteq - Ant Petrof (Prelude) ---10
  • 11 - Pianoteq - Bechstein DG (Prelude) ---11
  • 12 - Pianoteq - Steinway B (Prelude) ---12
  • 13 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Bosendorfer (original, without processing) ---13
  • 14 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Upright Yamaha SU7 (original, without processing) ---14
  • 15 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Yamaha CFX (original, without processing) ---15
  • 16 - VST - The Hammersmith ---16
  • 17 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Bosendorfer (with de-noising, compression and reverb, v2) ---17
  • 18 - VST - Noire Pure ---18
  • 19 - DP Yamaha CLP-635 - Yamaha CFX (with de-noising, compression and reverb, v2) ---19



In addition, I added 4 more files (with new instruments): these are numbers from 16 to 19:
Test audio files (OGG) >>
Test audio files (MP3) >>


I started learning to play the piano in November 2017.
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-635 | SoundCloud >>
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850443
05/20/19 02:01 PM
05/20/19 02:01 PM
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Thanks for taking the time for uploading the audio for us to debate about which piano sound we like/dislike smile


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850446
05/20/19 02:21 PM
05/20/19 02:21 PM
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So ... my favorites were the Grandeur (which is my everyday favorite) and the Bechstein VST (which is entirely new to me).
My least favorites were the CLP635 and four of the six Pianoteqs.

Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850453
05/20/19 02:31 PM
05/20/19 02:31 PM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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Unsurprisingly my favorite is the unmodified CFX from the CLP smile Also unsurprisingly the Pianoteq Steinway D is among the worst to me. Unsurprisingly I liked the Pianoteq Bechstein DG which I have also praised in another thread. Surprisingly there are a few other Pianoteq presets that I liked: the Steinway B and the Steingraeber. It’s a shame there are no sampled CFX pianos though. Especially Garritan CFX.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850461
05/20/19 02:52 PM
05/20/19 02:52 PM
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I liked the Pianoteq Steinway B which I have. I liked the Steingraeber and is on my list to purchase from Pianoteq. I also like the unmodified CFX from the CLP too.
I brought the Steinway Model D from Pianoteq but I like the Model B more and play that one more.

Unlike MacMacMac I like Pianoteq smile


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850472
05/20/19 03:24 PM
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Interesting!

It’s been a couple of years since I used pianoteq or VST’s regularly, but it kind of confirms my preference for Pianoteq. Haven’t played the Steingraeber myself, but it makes sense that it was my favorite given that Steingraeber by far and away is my favorite acoustic piano manufacturer.

The big shocker for me is nr 1. I would really have expected to like the Bechstein digital. But I would say the clipping (or whatever) is unmistakeable. Is something malfunctioning with this VST on the computer used?

Last edited by oivavoi; 05/20/19 03:24 PM.
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850481
05/20/19 04:03 PM
05/20/19 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by StasNick
It is time to reveal the names of the instruments.


My Grandeur VST does not sound like the rendered sample at all, which has a nice, full sound. Have you changed any of the default settings or did you run the output through some filter?

Other than that, don't really have a preference. They all sound like pianos.

Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: kj85] #2850572
05/21/19 01:20 AM
05/21/19 01:20 AM
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It would be really great if anyone could add the Garritan CFX and Ivory II American D with the given midi file to the list (and shuffle numbers again).
I don't own them, but I am thinking of buying them to test whether I like them better than the sound of my N1X.

Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850629
05/21/19 07:34 AM
05/21/19 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by StasNick

1. Do you hear a distinct difference between these voices?
2. Which voice do you like best?
3. Which voice do you think is the worst?



1. Yes.
2. 11
3. 17

6 and 14 may sound odd but I think they are sounds from old pianos and not so bad.

Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850646
05/21/19 08:18 AM
05/21/19 08:18 AM
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I did a few renders with a VST that shall not be named for now.
If you recognize it, keep it to yourself fow now, don't ruin the fun for people that may not know it.

All profiles were predefined by the manufacturer, nothing custom.
Will post the name of the presets and VST later.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YE-CEo8CtLmMx0BybKNAcb5diKmI68FB

What do you think?

Last edited by Granyala; 05/21/19 08:23 AM.

The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: Granyala] #2850689
05/21/19 10:22 AM
05/21/19 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Granyala
I did a few renders with a VST that shall not be named for now.
If you recognize it, keep it to yourself fow now, don't ruin the fun for people that may not know it.

All profiles were predefined by the manufacturer, nothing custom.
Will post the name of the presets and VST later.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YE-CEo8CtLmMx0BybKNAcb5diKmI68FB

What do you think?


1. Very pleasant sound.

2. Metallic sound, not always pleasant.

3. Nice but it seems like a piano in another rooms sometimes.

4. Sound inside the head; treble line very thin.

Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: oivavoi] #2850697
05/21/19 10:38 AM
05/21/19 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by oivavoi
Interesting!

It’s been a couple of years since I used pianoteq or VST’s regularly, but it kind of confirms my preference for Pianoteq. Haven’t played the Steingraeber myself, but it makes sense that it was my favorite given that Steingraeber by far and away is my favorite acoustic piano manufacturer.

The big shocker for me is nr 1. I would really have expected to like the Bechstein digital. But I would say the clipping (or whatever) is unmistakeable. Is something malfunctioning with this VST on the computer used?


oivavoi, I agree: the Steingraeber sounds pretty good. Perhaps I accidentally picked up the tuning (E-272), which sounds open and free, it has a good bass, and in the recording there is “air”, besides, the pedal noise is low.
By the way, I think that this pedal noise should be immediately reduced in all VST and Pianoteq - this is what I learned from this experiment.

As for the C. Bechstein digital (VST):
I chose one of the standard settings (Classic near) and it looks like it sounds awful. I made a new version (with more fine tuning of the sound, including setting the curve for the keyboard) and I really like this result. The sound of this VST is pleasant, the responsiveness is very good, although I think that it is thin and overly open (there is little bass and low frequencies in it). This file is here (number 00):
Test audio files (OGG) >>
Test audio files (MP3) >>


I started learning to play the piano in November 2017.
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-635 | SoundCloud >>
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: kj85] #2850702
05/21/19 10:56 AM
05/21/19 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by kj85
Originally Posted by StasNick
It is time to reveal the names of the instruments.


My Grandeur VST does not sound like the rendered sample at all, which has a nice, full sound. Have you changed any of the default settings or did you run the output through some filter?

Other than that, don't really have a preference. They all sound like pianos.


kj85, no, I did not add filters. But I changed the settings. The main ones are:
1. Tone: turn to the right until the sound is clear and bright for your hearing, and then slow down a little. And, as it seems to me, it will sound much better than the default.
2. Anatomy: Adjust the curve for better responsiveness and accuracy for your keyboard. My best fit is Hard. Enable Overtones for a richer sound. Reduce pedal noise.
3. Space: I like the Piano reso 1 setting, and I reduce the size and amount a bit.
I attach screenshots for clarity.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Last edited by StasNick; 05/21/19 10:57 AM.

I started learning to play the piano in November 2017.
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-635 | SoundCloud >>
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850713
05/21/19 11:19 AM
05/21/19 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by StasNick
Originally Posted by oivavoi
Interesting!

It’s been a couple of years since I used pianoteq or VST’s regularly, but it kind of confirms my preference for Pianoteq. Haven’t played the Steingraeber myself, but it makes sense that it was my favorite given that Steingraeber by far and away is my favorite acoustic piano manufacturer.

The big shocker for me is nr 1. I would really have expected to like the Bechstein digital. But I would say the clipping (or whatever) is unmistakeable. Is something malfunctioning with this VST on the computer used?


oivavoi, I agree: the Steingraeber sounds pretty good. Perhaps I accidentally picked up the tuning (E-272), which sounds open and free, it has a good bass, and in the recording there is “air”, besides, the pedal noise is low.
By the way, I think that this pedal noise should be immediately reduced in all VST and Pianoteq - this is what I learned from this experiment.

As for the C. Bechstein digital (VST):
I chose one of the standard settings (Classic near) and it looks like it sounds awful. I made a new version (with more fine tuning of the sound, including setting the curve for the keyboard) and I really like this result. The sound of this VST is pleasant, the responsiveness is very good, although I think that it is thin and overly open (there is little bass and low frequencies in it). This file is here (number 00):
Test audio files (OGG) >>
Test audio files (MP3) >>


Great work!

Yes, the new Bechstein version sounds much better. Still - IMHO - not even close to the Pianoteq Steingraeber. (Steingraeber pianos are not very well known, compared to Steinway and Bösendorfer etc, but they really are ahead of the pack... again IMHO)

And I very much agree re: pedal noise. Pedal noise, and other mechanical noises, are inherent weaknesses of the mechanics of an acoustic instrument. It's not a good thing! It's there because we can't get rid of it! Why on earth would one like to import that into a digital instrument? That would be like voluntarily putting "clicks" and "pops" on MP3's, because they were there on vinyl and tape recordings.

I also think it's possible that the brain (or my brain at least) reacts differently to such noises when they are present digitally, and not in the instrument itself. When playing an acoustic instrument, it may be that we kind of stop noticing such noise, because it's so connected to the instrument itself. But when playing a DP, there is no way of making that connection between the noise and the actual instrument we have in front of us.

Acoustic pianos can be wonderful creatures, and the playing experience can't be fully recreated by digital technology IMO. But there are some things digitals do better than acoustics, and one of those things is the possibility of playing without generating mechanical noise. So on my Kawai CS10 I always turn the pedal noise all the way down.

Last edited by oivavoi; 05/21/19 11:19 AM.
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850719
05/21/19 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by StasNick
I attach screenshots for clarity.


Thanks. Can you post the anatomy settings screenshot? The tone settings appear twice in you post by mistake.

Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: kj85] #2850772
05/21/19 02:27 PM
05/21/19 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kj85
Originally Posted by StasNick
I attach screenshots for clarity.


Thanks. Can you post the anatomy settings screenshot? The tone settings appear twice in you post by mistake.

Yes, of course. Here is a new screenshot:

[Linked Image]


I started learning to play the piano in November 2017.
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-635 | SoundCloud >>
Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850781
05/21/19 03:03 PM
05/21/19 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by StasNick
Yes, of course. Here is a new screenshot


Thanks. Still sounds very different from your sample. Unless, I am making some obvious mistake, I don't see how two renders of the same midi file using the same settings in the same VST instrument can be so different.

It's after midnight here. In the morning, I'll upload screenshots of my settings as well as a render of your midi file using said settings.

Re: Blind sound test: DP vs Pianoteq vs VST instruments [Re: StasNick] #2850783
05/21/19 03:14 PM
05/21/19 03:14 PM
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Thanks for taking the time to organize this StasNick.

My preferences were generally for music that had:

- fewer mechanical sounds,
- less audio distortion,
- fewer "synthetic" sounding chords (which sometimes took time to rear their ugly heads and were not only PianoTeq).

On this listening test, I thought dry vs. wet was much less important than clean, natural sounding notes. That might be bias as I use the very noisy and very wet Garritan CFX every day.

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