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Re: Kawai Quality or lack of it [Re: cmlpires] #2850476
05/20/19 03:33 PM
05/20/19 03:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,951
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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peter ... If I understand you properly, you're saying that Kawai can make up for quality problems by providing service after the sale. Is that right?
If so I really have to wonder how this can work? Only if field service is REALLY cheap. And usually it is not.

It's generally cheaper to prevent the defect before it happens.
Next best is to catch the defect before it escapes the factory.
Worst is to pay for the repair after delivery.

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Re: Kawai Quality or lack of it [Re: cmlpires] #2850479
05/20/19 03:40 PM
05/20/19 03:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 56
Bay area, CA
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RogerRL Offline
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I have to say I went though a disappointing experience over the last week. I ordered an MP11SE online since I couldn't find any locally.

When it arrived it looked like it went through heck and back, and I could hear rattling inside, so I filmed myself opening the box. The 75lb instrument is held in place with 3 rather small piece of styrofoam. They were broken into tiny bits (the size of my fist), and the slab was badly dented in many places. In particular the section by the power switch was deformed to the point that I questioned whether it could be plugged in. The keys were held in place by a strip of tape, but the mechanism was so damaged that dozens of the white keys stuck when pressed down, and some wouldn't move at all.

I chalked it up to bad luck with UPS, contacted the vendor and arranged to return it, which they did at no cost to me. I resolved to buy "locally", and found one 2 1/2 hours away. When they wheeled the box out it box looked like it took very similar damage. I checked it before leaving and the slab seemed okay. When I got home I noticed there were two dents on the case, and again, the styrofoam was all broken up, though not as bad as the first one. The action is fine and I've decided to keep it rather than face the hours of work and driving entailed in replacing it. This is clearly a systemic problem - see the next paragraph.

The dent on mine - I've seen this EXACT dent on used mp11se on sale. The fourth picture on this listing looks exactly like a dent on mine. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kawai-MP11SE-Stage-Piano-SNR-3508/223478990631?epid=3023981734&hash=item340862c727:g:EGcAAOSw59Jcr5VV The first one that I received from UPS also had this dent, but on both sides, among others far worse. I'm convinced I've seen this dent in other ads as well, but can't find any at the moment, so perhaps I am mistaken.

There's something wrong with the packing materials. It's clear from the box's externals that they encounter less than white glove service (most of the box is blackened, several punctures and clear dents), and the paucity of styrofoam and the low quality (it is easy to break apart), means that the instruments are getting damaged in transit. In comparison, a year ago I bought a CA78, and that thing was very well packed. All empty space was filled and there was no way for anything to break short of dropping the box off of a lift gate or something.

It's a great instrument; why pack it so that it gets damaged in shipping? They saved a buck or two on Styrofoam, but at what cost? I adore the brand, but this seems to be a large QC oversight.


Shigaru Kawai SK-2, Kawai MP11SE
Re: Kawai Quality or lack of it [Re: cmlpires] #2850519
05/20/19 06:54 PM
05/20/19 06:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 864
Long Beach, CA
TomLC Offline
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[align:right][/align]
Originally Posted by cmlpires
David
You are right. I just finished talking to David Reid asking him to replace the whole keyboard, versus repairing each key, and he agreed to do it. Wonderful day and I am starting to see things more positive. Thank You David Reid!


As I would have expected from David. BTW, his name is David [/i]Reed[i].


[Linked Image]

Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Quality or lack of it [Re: RogerRL] #2850526
05/20/19 07:29 PM
05/20/19 07:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,951
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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This is not a QC problem. It's a package design problem.
Originally Posted by RogerRL
There's something wrong with the packing materials. ... means that the instruments are getting damaged in transit.
It's a great instrument; why pack it so that it gets damaged in shipping?
I adore the brand, but this seems to be a large QC oversight.

Re: Kawai Quality or lack of it [Re: cmlpires] #2850530
05/20/19 07:54 PM
05/20/19 07:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,392
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Hello cmlpires, welcome to the forum.

I'm sorry to read about the issues you have been experiencing with your CP2, however I'm glad to read that you are being well looked after by Kawai America's support staff, and am confident that they will make every effort to resolve the situation.

By the way, looking at your profile I see that you (also?) own a Kawai CA67, is this correct?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai Quality or lack of it [Re: MacMacMac] #2850532
05/20/19 07:58 PM
05/20/19 07:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,392
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
This is not a QC problem. It's a package design problem.


I'm more inclined to think that it's a "rough handling during shipping" problem.

Here is an authentic re-enactment of common package handling policies, courtesy of Techmoan.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai Quality or lack of it [Re: cmlpires] #2850539
05/20/19 08:39 PM
05/20/19 08:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 174
Hawai'i Island
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First off, for the op, so sorry to read about all your woes. Even if the after sale service is perfect, it still costs you wasted time and time cannot be replaced.

Regarding arrival condition, I am happy to say that the MP11SE I recently acquired from Sweetwater arrived here in Hawaii via UPS in perfect condition. Even the outer box Sweetwater packed it in was still in good shape. And, so far, no defects in the piano.

Re: Kawai Quality [Re: cmlpires] #2850553
05/20/19 09:28 PM
05/20/19 09:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,951
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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@KJ: You have to expect rough handling by delivery services. Packaging must be sufficient to deal with such handling.
Yes, I hate the gorillas who handle my luggage ... and their cousins who handle my packages.
But there's nothing for it. Pack accordingly.


Re: Kawai Quality [Re: cmlpires] #2850763
05/21/19 02:02 PM
05/21/19 02:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 31
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TylerMorgan1 Offline
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I recently bought an MP11SE and have some issues with headphone static in the left ear and also no sound in the left ear via line out. See the thread here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2845479/kawai-mp11se-headphone-static.html

I've decided to ship the keyboard back to MF and have them send a replacement. Crossing my fingers that there will be no issues. The MP11SE came in a pretty sturdy package with little evidence of shipping abuse, but there was a small hole on the side of the package where the headphone and line out jacks are, so I can't really rule out shipping as the cause. I find it hard to believe that my issues would not have been noticed during quality control, so my guess is that some wires came loose along the hundreds of miles that the keyboard had to be shipped to me (not to mention the thousands of miles from Indonesia to Kansas for its trip to MF).

I'm currently procrastinating on sending it back due to the fact that I love playing it so much. It's so discouraging given the awesomeness of the instrument itself. Without these types of issues, the MP11SE would be almost perfect in my opinion. I love the feel and the tones of the keyboard, and it is such a huge upgrade over my original Yamaha DGX 650. I'm really looking forward to getting the replacement and settling in with the MP11SE. However, if I have any initial issues with the replacement, I may begin to consider the Yamaha P515 instead.

Hopefully Kawai can identify the issue, whether it is shipping or QC. Even if the issue is shipping, there should be some steps that Kawai could take to increase the chances of safe passage even in the midst of harsh handling. After all, the MP11SE is meant to be a stage piano, so it should be able to withstand some bumps on the road. Plus, its frame appears to be made of all metal, which should lend some extra durability.

Does anyone know when Kawai began making the MP11 / MP11SE in Indonesia? Or has it always been made there?

Re: Kawai Quality [Re: TylerMorgan1] #2850928
05/22/19 12:37 AM
05/22/19 12:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,392
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Hello Tyler,

If you have any concerns with the instrument, it's probably best to request a replacement from the retailer.

Originally Posted by TylerMorgan1
Does anyone know when Kawai began making the MP11 / MP11SE in Indonesia? Or has it always been made there?


Kawai DPs have been manufactured in Indonesia for at least 15 years - likely more.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai Quality [Re: cmlpires] #2851017
05/22/19 08:32 AM
05/22/19 08:32 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 550
America
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Jitin Offline
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America
I’m sorry but , the amount of quality issues I’ve seen , with kawai digital, I would not feel spending my hard earned money on them.


Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: Kawai Quality [Re: cmlpires] #2851022
05/22/19 08:44 AM
05/22/19 08:44 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,395
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Cheshire, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by cmlpires
I decided post in this forum because I am
tired of some of the members here to exalt
the supreme quality of Kawai pianos. I purchased a
new Kawai CP2. Now all the nightmare started.
They brought in the new CP2, placed it in my favorite
place and and after plugging to the electricity, nothing
happened. So I ask them, if they were to pick up the other
new one in their warehouse. Well he said, I have seen
this before and I shall open the back and see what
goes on. Indeed there were two white plastic small
boxes that were disconnected. So the piano finally
start working and they left. Two weeks later I tried
to connect my JBL studio speakers, but no sound was
coming from the output of the CP2. As well the MP3
output in the display panel was not working.
Called the tech support and the technician told me
that the connections were the problem. He fixed it and
I called Kawai to check the serial number and to
whom they first sold the piano. It was OK. It was new.
3 weeks later some keys start to become sticky just
like there was chewing gum under them. Tech support
came to my house and replace the double sided tape
in the keys that were having problem. He left.
One month later, more keys start to have the same issue.
I called Mr Juan Escobar from Kawai and he told me that all
the 88 keys needed to be replaced. This issue was known
to Kawai for a couple years already. So the tech came by
and after 3 hours he left and the piano seemed OK.
Last week more 5 or 6 keys are showing the problems
again. Meanwhile I called Kawai Director Mr David Reed
and after telling him what is happening with a new piano
purchased 9 months ago, I asked him to exchange for a different piano
and I would pay the difference of price and they could charge me MSRP for mine.
I was desperate to get ride of this CP2. He said that it could not be done,
but that warranty would be OK. He agreed, his words were I understand
that playing with sticky keys is deplorable, but it will be fixed with the warranty.
I will be calling tech again and I do not believe that will be the last time.
So,how could I go and give a check to Kawai of 25000 for a new piano? And please don't
come with the "you had bad luck". Yes I did but Kawai quality stinks, and by being aware
of this problem they should not sell me this piano

Cmlpires


Hi Cmlpires,

From a technical perspective: Newly released products (especially first batches) often have problems. The fact your unit arrived faulty might be because of bugs in the original manufacturing process back in 2014.
If you purchased a model from one of the first batches of stock i.e., one that had been sat in the warehouse since 2014, then this possibly explains it.
Obviously when this happens to anybody (no matter the brand) it is very frustrating. But yes, you also could just have unfortunately received a unit that failed to be picked up by QC.

Yamaha's P515 has had multiple issues since it was released this year, so Kawai isn't the only one that has these teething issues in manufacturing. Would depend on how long your vendor had the instrument in storage (or how long his distributor had kept that unit in storage for before shipping it out to the vendor).

Be aware that whilst one can have sympathy for you, this is not a Kawai bashing forum---we love their instruments and many of us are owners who brought without faults.
If you have questions to ask Kawai James i.e., something that would be of constructive help to you, by all means post. Posting to spread rumours about Kawai build quality is maybe understandable (due to frustration) but I'm not a fan of this kind of post.

Personally, I pay little attention to rants by users who have received a bad unit because I understand manufacturing process a little and know these things happen. It's poor form to assume your personal experience will be shared by the majority of Kawai owners!
Kawai quality in general doesn't stink at all, although with specific instruments, forum members have reported action issues. Like I said, that has happened to Yamaha too.
In fact, Nord decided to purchase Kawai RHIII actions over say the Yamaha NWX action for use in it's latest Nord Grand Stage piano. So obviously Nord don't think Kawai actions are overly poor in build quality.

My MP7 is built like a tank and it hasn't gone wrong once. Compared to plastic stage pianos, my MP7 is far less likely to get damaged by my nephews and nieces. That said, when I've brought something new and it has gone wrong, I too have been annoyed enough to complain to the vendor.


Kind regards,

~Doug.

Last edited by Doug M.; 05/22/19 08:54 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Kawai Quality [Re: cmlpires] #2851033
05/22/19 09:06 AM
05/22/19 09:06 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,951
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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I, too, don't like the rants. But "these kind of things happen" is no excuse. There is no excuse for poor quality. None.

And think back over the last dozen years ...

Complaints about Rolands are rare (though they did go through a bad period with keyboard dandruff eight or so years ago)
Complaints about Yamahas have been rare.
Complaints about Kawai pianos are rife.

Kawai stands out. And cmlpires is screwed. I don't like the rant. But I sympathize with his situation.
Lucky for Jitin ... he chose avoidance.

Re: Kawai Quality [Re: MacMacMac] #2851054
05/22/19 09:48 AM
05/22/19 09:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 515
UK
J
jamiecw Offline
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UK
Originally Posted by MacMacMac

Lucky for Jitin ... he chose avoidance.


Jiltin isn’t alone, I too was eyeing either the ES8 or MP11SE before finally concluding on the P515 and the deciding factor was just that, avoidance and the potential hustle.

However, Sod’s law, fast forward less than a couple months of owning the P515 and the triple pedal (the sustain pedal) developed an annoying squeak. Retailer asked me to send it back so they can try and fix it but I opted a DIY rite and I pulled it off..this time. Had it been the actual DP...I’d be screaming on the rooftops about Yamaha QC smile

Re: Kawai Quality [Re: cmlpires] #2851072
05/22/19 10:46 AM
05/22/19 10:46 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,605
Pennsylvania
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dmd Offline
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Pennsylvania
I also have had issues with the ES8 (some keys not sounding periodically after 2 years) but I sold it, purchased a Yamaha P515 … returned the P515 because I could not live with the sound …. and repurchased the ES8 because I then realized what I had with the ES8.

Potential for problems did not sway me for an instant from purchasing another ES8. The sound and keyboard touch ES8 was that important to me.



The problem with purchasing digital pianos, especially your first one, is that you do not know what "good" is.

Usually, your first one is never good enough because you have nothing to compare it to.

I was the same way. I went through digital pianos always searching for what I thought they should sound like.

That search ended when I experienced the ES8. I had found it.

I then took a chance on the high praise with the rhetoric about the MP11SE and my experience with the Kawai product line (I had others) and went for it.

I have been rewarded with an excellent piano that is an absolute pleasure to play each day.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Kawai Quality [Re: Doug M.] #2851138
05/22/19 12:59 PM
05/22/19 12:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 116
USA
J
JJHLH Online content
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Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 116
USA
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Be aware that whilst one can have sympathy for you, this is not a Kawai bashing forum---we love their instruments and many of us are owners who brought without faults.
If you have questions to ask Kawai James i.e., something that would be of constructive help to you, by all means post. Posting to spread rumours about Kawai build quality is maybe understandable (due to frustration) but I'm not a fan of this kind of post.

Personally, I pay little attention to rants by users who have received a bad unit because I understand manufacturing process a little and know these things happen. It's poor form to assume your personal experience will be shared by the majority of Kawai owners!


I respectfully disagree with this. The OP was simply sharing his experience of purchasing an expensive product that he was disappointed with. This is a piano forum after all, and we should feel free to discuss negatives as well as positives. I find such information very helpful when it comes to influencing my purchasing decisions, as long as it’s done in a respectful manner, which I think the OP did.


Yamaha P-515
Re: Kawai Quality [Re: cmlpires] #2851151
05/22/19 01:25 PM
05/22/19 01:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 583
Virginia, USA
K
Kbeaumont Offline
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K

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 583
Virginia, USA
Yes, I want to know the issues too. That way I find out how the dealer and the manufacturer handle issues. And by the amount of times I see the exact same issue pop up.
The very last thing I would want is to fork out $2,000+ for a DP and find out that it has an issue that is fairly common and that I'm basically screwed because I believed all the hype here and bought one. Finding Kawai digital pianos in a show room isn't exactly easy. Most people are quite able to decide for themselves if an issue is common or rare by following ALL the threads negative and positive.


A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....
Re: Kawai Quality [Re: Kawai James] #2851491
05/23/19 01:13 PM
05/23/19 01:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 7
IL USA
C
cmlpires Offline OP
Junior Member
cmlpires  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 7
IL USA
Hi James, I had my first Kawai CA67. It a few keys that were louder than others although the piano was new. I get tired of it and traded in with the CP2

Re: Kawai Quality [Re: Doug M.] #2851496
05/23/19 01:35 PM
05/23/19 01:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 7
IL USA
C
cmlpires Offline OP
Junior Member
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 7
IL USA
Doug, I was not venting my displeasure with Kawai. In order for you to understand I must tell you that prior to the CP2 I bought a CA67. I really liked the sound and the action of it. However it started having a problem with a few keys that were louder than others. I got fed up and traded in for a CP2. Same dealer and interesting enough he has a floor CP2 that is still working fine. I just got the wrong one. But this experience has been positive because David Reed of Kawai is replacing the keyboard. If I did not have this support I would be upset and probably ranting in the forum.

Re: Kawai Quality [Re: MacMacMac] #2851497
05/23/19 01:42 PM
05/23/19 01:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 134
Portland, Oregon, USA
Emery Wang Offline
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Posts: 134
Portland, Oregon, USA
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I, too, don't like the rants. But "these kind of things happen" is no excuse. There is no excuse for poor quality. None.

And think back over the last dozen years ...

Complaints about Rolands are rare (though they did go through a bad period with keyboard dandruff eight or so years ago)
Complaints about Yamahas have been rare.
Complaints about Kawai pianos are rife.

Kawai stands out. And cmlpires is screwed. I don't like the rant. But I sympathize with his situation.
Lucky for Jitin ... he chose avoidance.

Hi Mac. Love your screen name and logo, btw. So I wonder if part of your observations have something to do with the number of keyboards sold. If not many forum posters use Rolands, more buy Yamahas, and even more buy Kawais, then Kawais would have more complaints even if the percentage of bad keyboards was the same across all manufacturers. Any idea as to which brand is more common in the forum?

My MP11SE has been rock solid for 2 years, btw, with nary a squeak or wiggle.

Last edited by Emery Wang; 05/23/19 01:43 PM.

Kawai MP11SE
Kawai GL10
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