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3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism #2850200 05/20/19 01:39 AM
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https://bulletproofmusician.com/three-different-types-of-practice-strategies-which-one-works-best/

All these and similar tips are shooting past students at retirement age. Is required development of area of geronto- pianism !

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Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: Nahum] #2850205 05/20/19 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum

https://bulletproofmusician.com/three-different-types-of-practice-strategies-which-one-works-best/

All these and similar tips are shooting past students at retirement age. Is required development of area of geronto- pianism !


I read the article. It seems rather limited in terms of practising strategies, tbh. What I didn't get is the "shooting past students in retirement age" comment. What do you mean?

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: Nahum] #2850211 05/20/19 02:38 AM
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Personally I agree with his conclusions and I think the practical advice we students normally hear, line up with his conclusions.

1. Block practice seems to be more effective for learning new material.
(a.k.a. - go slow, be mindful, be accurate, and repeat)

2. Learner-adapted practice seems effective for rounding out a large set of material.
(a.k.a. - focus on the hardest/difficult parts, move through the easy material quickly)

3 Random practice seems more effective for sewing it all up and tying up the loose ends.
(a.k.a. - interleaved practice, come at it from different angles)

I like the way he showed that managing piano practice is more like calculus than algebra; not a simple plug and play equation but an equation with multiple changing variables to account for..



Re: Gerontology
I'm not sure it's particularly aimed at an ageing student. Could be effective for younger students as well.


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And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: keystring] #2850215 05/20/19 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
What I didn't get is the "shooting past students in retirement age" comment. What do you mean?
The piano technique has existed for over 400 years, has been developed by more than any other musical instrument, and has historically been used and continues to be used by many tens of millions of teachers. However, the whole methodology was built and is still aimed primarily at educating children from the age of 5; teenagers; and "adult" students - we usually have after military service, i.e. at the age of 24- 35 years. Students of retirement age never was not taken into account ; what refers to group statistical studies and, as a result, to the choice of training strategies . I know that not everyone is pleased to read about it; however, while I am alive, I have touched and will touch on this topic.

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: Nahum] #2850217 05/20/19 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
The piano technique has existed for over 400 years, has been developed by more than any other musical instrument, and has historically been used and continues to be used by many tens of millions of teachers. However, the whole methodology was built and is still aimed primarily at educating children from the age of 5; teenagers; and "adult" students - we usually have after military service, i.e. at the age of 24- 35 years. Students of retirement age never was not taken into account ; what refers to group statistical studies and, as a result, to the choice of training strategies . I know that not everyone is pleased to read about it; however, while I am alive, I have touched and will touch on this topic.

Very interesting point Nahum. Do you have any ideas about how geronto-pianism could or should differ from child/young adult pianism?

Also, evidence like this is always tricky, and not only because of the generalization from taking shots in basketball to learning to play the piano, which is a rather big one, but also because all results are on group level. There maybe individuals who learn better with an approach that is not the most effective for the group as a whole.
We all can read these kind of articles and try to test new approaches, but in the end, we have to decide if this approach works for us, now.


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
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Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: Nahum] #2850224 05/20/19 03:44 AM
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I primarily consider my own age changes at the 74 as an experience in which I study as a pianist and as a teacher. This is a completely different situation than a student-child, teenager, or adult returning to the instrument after a break of 10 years. For example: the ability to read from a sheet has decreased several times, the signs of alteration and fingering often are forgotten - which requires signs on almost every note, learning a difficult place requires 250-300+ repetitions instead of the usual 20 ; there are appeared signs of dyslexia, which I did not have before, when the parts of both hands are confused with each other. And this is only a part, and only in my case ...

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: Nahum] #2850228 05/20/19 04:17 AM
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The thing with methodology - there are so many ways done by different teachers and in different countries. My position is that if a young student is being taught well in the way I see "well" (don't want to go into what that entails), that is how I want to be taught as an adult.

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: keystring] #2850246 05/20/19 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
My position is that if a young student is being taught well in the way I see "well" (don't want to go into what that entails), that is how I want to be taught as an adult.

Not sure about that.

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: Nahum] #2850248 05/20/19 05:43 AM
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Repetition is important but "how" to repeat is more important. Mindlessly repeating until you get something right is considered a "brute force" type of method which is inefficeint compared to mindful practice with using a practice method strategies. Some strategies only rely on slow practice which sets up a trap since sometimes people will do incorrect movements they can get away at slower tempo and thus increasing the tempo becomes problematic. There are many tools one can use such as controlled pausing, rhythmic alterations, simplification of the score and gradual addition, understanding the fingering art logic, pattern observations etc etc. Certain specific analysis will act as a catalyst for the individuals progress and help them overcome challenges they may face. Just getting something right once or twice or twenty times actually is not very useful unless it you can demonstrate multiple controlled repetitions in a row. You need to at least get 3 or so repetitions in a row which are controlled and accurate. One also has to consider how they are learning their music, whether they are trying to put it all into muscular memory or are indeed using reading skills combined with muscular memory since both have different strategies.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/20/19 05:43 AM.

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Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: Nahum] #2850259 05/20/19 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Just getting something right once or twice or twenty times actually is not very useful unless it you can demonstrate multiple controlled repetitions in a row. You need to at least get 3 or so repetitions in a row which are controlled and accurate. One also has to consider how they are learning their music, whether they are trying to put it all into muscular memory or are indeed using reading skills combined with muscular memory since both have different strategies.
This method, which seems to you to be unmistakable, at some stage ceases to be reliable. Many years ago, the famous Moscow piano methodist wrote: "It’s no longer possible to make a mistake!" This stage simply disappears, giving way to some statistical events: "Am I mistaken this time or not?"

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: Nahum] #2850260 05/20/19 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
For example: the ability to read from a sheet has decreased several times, the signs of alteration and fingering often are forgotten - which requires signs on almost every note, learning a difficult place requires 250-300+ repetitions instead of the usual 20 ; there are appeared signs of dyslexia, which I did not have before, when the parts of both hands are confused with each other. And this is only a part, and only in my case ...

This sounds quite bad Nahum. How brave of you to keep on with the piano.

Originally Posted by Nahum
I primarily consider my own age changes at the 74 as an experience in which I study as a pianist and as a teacher.

It would be very interesting if you would develop some foundations of geronto-pianism.


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
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Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: Nahum] #2850263 05/20/19 06:10 AM
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Nahum
Sorry, but your article from Bulletproof Musician addresses different practice strategies.... but nowhere in this article does it address teaching or practicing strategies related to geriatric musicians. We all age differently, including how we learn. I have not read anything that generalizes this process based on age. ..... and a generalization frankly seems short-sighted.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: dogperson] #2850269 05/20/19 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Nahum
Sorry, but your article from Bulletproof Musician addresses different practice strategies.... but nowhere in this article does it address teaching or practicing strategies related to geriatric musicians. .

The article is not mine, only one of the comments)).

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: Nahum] #2850270 05/20/19 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
My position is that if a young student is being taught well in the way I see "well" (don't want to go into what that entails), that is how I want to be taught as an adult.

Not sure about that.

First we have to define what "taught well" means. The "traditional" ways may not be "well" for any age.

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: Nahum] #2850284 05/20/19 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Just getting something right once or twice or twenty times actually is not very useful unless it you can demonstrate multiple controlled repetitions in a row. You need to at least get 3 or so repetitions in a row which are controlled and accurate. One also has to consider how they are learning their music, whether they are trying to put it all into muscular memory or are indeed using reading skills combined with muscular memory since both have different strategies.
This method, which seems to you to be unmistakable, at some stage ceases to be reliable. Many years ago, the famous Moscow piano methodist wrote: "It’s no longer possible to make a mistake!" This stage simply disappears, giving way to some statistical events: "Am I mistaken this time or not?"

I don't follow what you are trying to say here sorry.


"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2850312 05/20/19 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Just getting something right once or twice or twenty times actually is not very useful unless it you can demonstrate multiple controlled repetitions in a row. You need to at least get 3 or so repetitions in a row which are controlled and accurate. One also has to consider how they are learning their music, whether they are trying to put it all into muscular memory or are indeed using reading skills combined with muscular memory since both have different strategies.
This method, which seems to you to be unmistakable, at some stage ceases to be reliable. Many years ago, the famous Moscow piano methodist wrote: "It’s no longer possible to make a mistake!" This stage simply disappears, giving way to some statistical events: "Am I mistaken this time or not?"

I don't follow what you are trying to say here sorry.


Lost--Nahum is expressing doubt about what you wrote. He disagrees with you.


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Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: Nahum] #2850325 05/20/19 09:34 AM
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I think there are two separate conversations here.
One is about effective practice strategies without considering the effects of age.

The other is about adapting practice strategies specifically for the older adult. That one is interesting to me, because I am one, and nearing retirement when I may have more time to practice, and less ability to improve.

I don't know how fully sports analogies apply to piano. However, back in the 1940s and 50s Paul Bertholy was one of the leading innovators for golf instruction, and actually started the idea of specific drills. He firmly believed that the best way to teach a child was goal directed modeling, somewhat like Inner Tennis which hadn't been invented yet, but that these methods did not work for adults. Adults needed a much more method oriented specific drill approach because they didn't have access to that childhood learning skill.


gotta go practice
Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: Nahum] #2850327 05/20/19 09:37 AM
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malkin,
Nahum is 74, Lost is 38. Two different worlds. (Nahum has been teaching for almost twice Lost's lifespan.)

I'm 66 and having some memory difficulties. Will they interfere with learning something new? Unknown. I'm going to test it soon, maybe guitar or ukulele.


gotta go practice
Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: malkin] #2850385 05/20/19 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Just getting something right once or twice or twenty times actually is not very useful unless it you can demonstrate multiple controlled repetitions in a row. You need to at least get 3 or so repetitions in a row which are controlled and accurate. One also has to consider how they are learning their music, whether they are trying to put it all into muscular memory or are indeed using reading skills combined with muscular memory since both have different strategies.
This method, which seems to you to be unmistakable, at some stage ceases to be reliable. Many years ago, the famous Moscow piano methodist wrote: "It’s no longer possible to make a mistake!" This stage simply disappears, giving way to some statistical events: "Am I mistaken this time or not?"

I don't follow what you are trying to say here sorry.


Lost--Nahum is expressing doubt about what you wrote. He disagrees with you.

It is all strange his response. Who is this "famous Moscow piano methodist", what is the stage which causes what I said to be unreliable and why is multiple correct repetitions IN A ROW a wrong method and just being able to do it ONCE is enough despite how many failures it required before hand to get it? It all seemed a smoke and mirror response to me. The article also does not relate to HOW to practice rather just a brute force mentality which is inefficient. If he is saying you just have to do it right once that is crazy talk im afraid.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/20/19 12:01 PM.

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Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism [Re: TimR] #2850386 05/20/19 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by TimR
malkin,
Nahum is 74, Lost is 38. Two different worlds. (Nahum has been teaching for almost twice Lost's lifespan.)

Then with such experience he should be able to express what he disagrees with with something more than "just believe me" type response. Logically being able to do something multiple times in a row is better than just achieving it once, that proves that there is less chance for error. He also did not content with the "how" to practice which I touched on, someone with many years experience would know this inside out and be able to expand on the point. It is not just about repetitions, it is important HOW you repeat and what tools you use with your practice craft all of which is absent in the response.


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