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Having high maximum peak power output probably couldn't hurt, but isn't it bad practice to play music that can exceed your continuous output, anyway? It seems like exceeding continuous output puts you at risk of linearity deviation.
He was talking about brief transients. Pretty much any amp has a way higher short term power handling compared to the continuous one in order to be able to cope with transients.
Mine has 70W continuous and 160W short term.
As for linearity: at the volumes you need to get past 160W ... I don't think the human ear cares much about linearity because it is already in protective mode and reduces details received significantly.
The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power. VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 7 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Having high maximum peak power output probably couldn't hurt, but isn't it bad practice to play music that can exceed your continuous output, anyway? It seems like exceeding continuous output puts you at risk of linearity deviation.
He was talking about brief transients. Pretty much any amp has a way higher short term power handling compared to the continuous one in order to be able to cope with transients.
Mine has 70W continuous and 160W short term.
As for linearity: at the volumes you need to get past 160W ... I don't think the human ear cares much about linearity because it is already in protective mode and reduces details received significantly.
Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by Philosobyte
Having high maximum peak power output probably couldn't hurt, but isn't it bad practice to play music that can exceed your continuous output, anyway? It seems like exceeding continuous output puts you at risk of linearity deviation.
He was talking about brief transients. Pretty much any amp has a way higher short term power handling compared to the continuous one in order to be able to cope with transients.
Mine has 70W continuous and 160W short term.
As for linearity: at the volumes you need to get past 160W ... I don't think the human ear cares much about linearity because it is already in protective mode and reduces details received significantly.
I’m talking about brief transients. My amp can put out 1250watts at 1ohm and 5400watts at 1/2ohm. In order to generate this kind of power instantaneously, an amp needs a huge bank of capacitors. Instant delivery is possible because capacitors store a static charge.
My amp weighs 80kg/175lbs, and I suspect quite a bit of that weight comes from the massive capacitors, which resemble big blue bombs. If you do an image search on the amp, you’ll see the internals.
This paper from Crown/Harman has useful information about the power requirements of different applications.
“Home stereo: 150 W for 85 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks), 1,500 W for 95 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks)â€
It depends on the kind of music a person listens to, the SPL, and the dynamic range of the music, as I’ve said before. Orchestral music with its huge dynamic range requires more power. I’ve never regretted having the kind of power this amp can deliver.
In case people haven’t figured it out, my amp is the stereo version of the Gryphon Colosseum:
“2 x 160 Watts Pure Class A output power, 48 High-current bipolar output transistors, a 340,000 microFarad power capacitor bank and flat frequency response extending beyond 350 kHz.â€
This is an interesting blurb on capacitors:
“A pea-sized capacitor can deliver 60 amps, for about a thousandth of a second.
The general rule is: a one farad capacitor can deliver 1 amp for 1 second while losing 1 volt. If you need 60 amps for 1 second with an allowable voltage droop of 1 volt, you need 60 farads.â€
Look, I’m not an electrical engineer. I buy amps based on whether they play music in a way that moves me emotionally.
Class A amps have always moved me more than other classes of amps. I replaced a 1978 vintage 90watt class A amp with the 160w Class A Gryphon and everything about the sound of my system improved dramatically. The separation and clarity of individual instruments is much better than I was before. The handling of large dynamic changes is better. The noise floor is dramatically reduced, on and on and on. Vocals now have a depth and clarity that they did not have with the old amp.
My understanding of how much power a speaker driver can handle is that it is dependent on how well the driver has been designed so as to dissipate heat. I don’t believe there is a simple way to say that a certain number of watts will destroy a speaker driver. I’m pretty confident that the engineers at Gryphon took great care in designing the drivers in the Cantata in order to handle the heat associated with the momentary application of large amounts of power.
If the material used made such a difference, as these cable manufacturers claim, then what about the use of poorly conducting solder used on circuit boards - even super expensive audiophile circuit boards as far as I know.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
^ Can’t add more to that!
Actually, that isn't true. I don't want to get into a discussion of audiophile grade solder, but a number of high-end OEMs discovered and used it. I have a pair of monoblocks in storage which used audiophile grade solder almost 25 years ago. They weren't blind then. Technology was just further behind back then.
I can’t tease out the comment about how many audio manufacturers use crappy boards and I just wanted to say that I found this in the Gryphon Colosseum manual:
“Double sealed, mil spec PCB with 105 μm copper traceâ€
“Inside the room it's silent. So silent that the background noise measured is actually negative decibels, -9.4 dBA. Steven Orfield, the lab's founder, told Hearing Aid Know: “We challenge people to sit in the chamber in the dark – one person stayed in there for 45 minutes. When it’s quiet, ears will adapt. The quieter the room, the more things you hear. You’ll hear your heart beating, sometimes you can hear your lungs, hear your stomach gurgling loudly. In the anechoic chamber, you become the sound.â€
I find stuff like this to be endlessly fascinating and I’d love to try the room. I think I would liken the experience to how I used to feel when I developed film in the dark, I mean, in absolute darkness. Your eyes dilate so wide in that circumstance that, after a while, you can see tiny pin pricks of light, if the room is not perfectly sealed from stray light. You cannot see your hand in front of your face. If you drop a roll of film, it can take you twenty minutes to find it. You get disoriented and can’t find the door, lol.
By the way, I believe that ship’s captains wore a patch over one eye, back in the old days, so that they could go below deck where it was dark and immediately be able to see. I don’t believe they were all blind in one eye.
I’m talking about brief transients. My amp can put out 1250watts at 1ohm and 5400watts at 1/2ohm.
This paper from Crown/Harman has useful information about the power requirements of different applications. https://www.crownaudio.com/how-much-amplifier-power and says: “Home stereo: 150 W for 85 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks), 1,500 W for 95 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks)â€
According to the calculator you would need 90W. That is INCLUDING the headroom of +15dB!! W/o headroom you would need 3W.
A 100W continuous amp is way more than sufficient for pre compressed music playback that rarely exceeds/reaches +15dB. Even my little guy could handle these levels b/c it is rated 160W for transients. Uncompressed live music is a different ballgame but that is not applicable to a home stereo system.
Keep in mind, consumers LOVE big numbers and manufacturers do their best to deliver spec sheets with big numbers, whether the customer ever uses these numbers or not.
As for the power handling of your speakers: suffice it to say, unless the room is way too large, you won't ever reach the 200W !continuous! w/o going deaf. No need to worry. Speakers are damaged by insufficient amp power (clipping feeds the tweeter extremely high frequencies that cause overheating) not by amps that are too powerful unless the venue is too big and you crank it too much.
The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power. VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 7 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Regarding www.soundstageultra.com ... How are we to take them seriously about speakers if they're also selling shyster cables? Upon first click I was met with Breath new life into your music library with the Alpha and Sigma USB Cables.
Are you sure you can distinguish between a €500 amp and €10000 amp in a blind test?
A blind test is almost useless in this context IMO. When you sit down at home and listen to music, the kind of subtlety you mention is perceived mostly (for lack of a better word) emotionally and not only mentally - you are open, relaxed and receptive. For example, you might be suddenly surprised at how silky the violins sound, or how beautiful the ambience or the whole experience is. A €500 amp can have a very similar test performance to a €10000 one. At this level of subtlety you might not perceive something different just in the physical sound itself, but mostly in your total response, in your enjoyment etc. This takes training and experience, of course.
When you are trying to perform in a blind test, you are asked to do something different - to concentrate on sound differences and are not free anymore - not free perhaps to be surprised by beauty, enjoyment etc.- and the differences might indeed be too subtle to be perceived in this quite limited way.
Quite often, wanting to be objectively sure sucks the life out of... life!
When you are trying to perform in a blind test, you are asked to do something different - to concentrate on sound differences and are not free anymore - not free perhaps to be surprised by beauty, enjoyment etc.- and the differences might indeed be too subtle to be perceived in this quite limited way.
Perticipants of such a test should not be so tense that they can't enjoy the music, that would indeed defeat their purpose. You don't do these tests with only one individual, after all that individual could have a "wood ear day". You use multiple people and average the responses.
I have days on which my Focal Clear is useless to me because my ears are tired / not in good condition due to work etc... what I call "wood ear day".
Either there are differences and you can perceive them or there aren't. It's a binary situation.
Quite often objective science saves you from falling for marketing BS and waste precious resources.
Last edited by Granyala; 05/20/1906:06 AM.
The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power. VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 7 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
I’m talking about brief transients. My amp can put out 1250watts at 1ohm and 5400watts at 1/2ohm.
This paper from Crown/Harman has useful information about the power requirements of different applications. https://www.crownaudio.com/how-much-amplifier-power and says: “Home stereo: 150 W for 85 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks), 1,500 W for 95 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks)â€
According to the calculator you would need 90W. That is INCLUDING the headroom of +15dB!! W/o headroom you would need 3W.
A 100W continuous amp is way more than sufficient for pre compressed music playback that rarely exceeds/reaches +15dB. Even my little guy could handle these levels b/c it is rated 160W for transients. Uncompressed live music is a different ballgame but that is not applicable to a home stereo system.
Keep in mind, consumers LOVE big numbers and manufacturers do their best to deliver spec sheets with big numbers, whether the customer ever uses these numbers or not.
As for the power handling of your speakers: suffice it to say, unless the room is way too large, you won't ever reach the 200W !continuous! w/o going deaf. No need to worry. Speakers are damaged by insufficient amp power (clipping feeds the tweeter extremely high frequencies that cause overheating) not by amps that are too powerful unless the venue is too big and you crank it too much.
My speakers have a minimum impedance of 3.4ohms and a maximum impedance of 7.8ohms. I thought you read the spec sheet.
I bought the amp to give me the ability to drive any speaker. If I want to drive a big set of electrostatics at some point in the future, I’ll be able to do that.
I play back losslessly and have the ability to play back higher sample rate music through my DAC. What compressed music?
There are other aspects of Class A amps that makes them exciting, I listed them. Have you ever owned a Class A amp or listened to one? I’ve run a Class A amp for at least the last ten years. One day, I had to pull out the Class A amp and put in a Class AB amp. Over dinner, my wife said, ok, I hear the difference between this amp and the other amp, the other one is better.
I’ve heard AV receivers and have not been impressed. Are you driving five speakers? That’s a complete scam. It costs a lot to get two high quality speakers, buying five means they’re low quality junk.
I don’t care that much about using the stereo for movies because I’m into dialogue more than special effects. If I want to see something special, special effects wise, I’ll go to the huge IMAX theater in New York or one of the smaller theaters with good sound systems.
I’m into listening to music and being in thrall to what I hear. I built my system to do this, it succeeds, I’m a happy man. What else do I need to say?
You seem all upset that I bought this amp when you think I could have just bought some one watt amp.
The only answer I can give is that my system sounds sublime.
Are you sure you can distinguish between a €500 amp and €10000 amp in a blind test?
A blind test is almost useless in this context IMO. When you sit down at home and listen to music, the kind of subtlety you mention is perceived mostly (for lack of a better word) emotionally and not only mentally - you are open, relaxed and receptive. For example, you might be suddenly surprised at how silky the violins sound, or how beautiful the ambience or the whole experience is. A €500 amp can have a very similar test performance to a €10000 one. At this level of subtlety you might not perceive something different just in the physical sound itself, but mostly in your total response, in your enjoyment etc. This takes training and experience, of course.
When you are trying to perform in a blind test, you are asked to do something different - to concentrate on sound differences and are not free anymore - not free perhaps to be surprised by beauty, enjoyment etc.- and the differences might indeed be too subtle to be perceived in this quite limited way.
Quite often, wanting to be objectively sure sucks the life out of... life!
I’m more interested in life than in objectively testing each piece of audio gear I buy. Yes, I want to be surprised by beauty in sound, by the beauty in the human voice. I was listening to the counter tenor Iestyn Davies last night and he sounded amazing, and I heard him live in Farinelli and the King. I know he’ll sound even better when I get my big amp back.
I sat my classical guitar teacher down in front of my stereo. He teaches in a music school and his wife is a professional singer, a soprano. He listens to a lot of music but he does not have the money to put together a two channel system.
Anyway, he sat on my couch absolutely delighting in the sound, picking out specific instruments that he had never heard so clearly on his favorite recordings. He also kept asking where I had put the third speaker and pointed at the big amp. I had to tell him that there was no third speaker, lol. He was amazed, I was delighted that he was amazed.
When you are trying to perform in a blind test, you are asked to do something different - to concentrate on sound differences and are not free anymore - not free perhaps to be surprised by beauty, enjoyment etc.- and the differences might indeed be too subtle to be perceived in this quite limited way.
Perticipants of such a test should not be so tense that they can't enjoy the music, that would indeed defeat their purpose. You don't do these tests with only one individual, after all that individual could have a "wood ear day". You use multiple people and average the responses.
I have days on which my Focal Clear is useless to me because my ears are tired / not in good condition due to work etc... what I call "wood ear day".
Either there are differences and you can perceive them or there aren't. It's a binary situation.
Quite often objective science saves you from falling for marketing BS and waste precious resources.
Of course, these are all good points. ABX testing is a great methodology for objective assessment, but it has clear limits. For example, if we are so easily influenced just by knowing which amplifier is playing and we have to use sophisticated ABX tests to overcome this problem - how influenced are we by the fact that we know we are in a ABX test and not just listening to music? Listening to sound is not the same thing as listening to music.
My speakers have a minimum impedance of 3.4ohms and a maximum impedance of 7.8ohms. I thought you read the spec sheet. I bought the amp to give me the ability to drive any speaker. If I want to drive a big set of electrostatics at some point in the future, I’ll be able to do that.
I play back losslessly and have the ability to play back higher sample rate music through my DAC. What compressed music?
Have you ever owned a Class A amp or listened to one? Are you driving five speakers?
You seem all upset that I bought this amp when you think I could have just bought some one watt amp.
2) I am talking about dynamic compression, not file compression. Virtually any recording out there is dynamically compressed, that#s why your Classical music has at most 18dB instead of 25+ of a live orchestra. The website you linked talked about that too.
3) I don't think I have encountered a pure class A amp so far. The expensive Cambridge was class XD, my own is probably a bog standard AB. I only drive 2 speakers, surround is not very useful/practical when you live in a 16m² apartment.
4) Naah why would I be upset? I'm just discussing technology here. I'm sure your amp sounds fine, even if it isn't the most efficient/economical piece of kit. No hard feelings involved on my part. Just curiosity / willingness to discuss stuff I deem interesting.
Originally Posted by Erard
For example, if we are so easily influenced just by knowing which amplifier is playing and we have to use sophisticated ABX tests to overcome this problem - how influenced are we by the fact that we know we are in a ABX test and not just listening to music? Listening to sound is not the same thing as listening to music.
Umm music is sound. I don't see the distinction here. Yeah, some people might strain to hear a difference where there is none but not the whole audience so on average it should cancel out.
Last edited by Granyala; 05/20/1908:09 AM.
The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power. VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 7 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
My speakers have a minimum impedance of 3.4ohms and a maximum impedance of 7.8ohms. I thought you read the spec sheet. I bought the amp to give me the ability to drive any speaker. If I want to drive a big set of electrostatics at some point in the future, I’ll be able to do that.
I play back losslessly and have the ability to play back higher sample rate music through my DAC. What compressed music?
Have you ever owned a Class A amp or listened to one? Are you driving five speakers?
You seem all upset that I bought this amp when you think I could have just bought some one watt amp.
2) I am talking about dynamic compression, not file compression. Virtually any recording out there is dynamically compressed, that#s why your Classical music has at most 18dB instead of 25+ of a live orchestra. The website you linked talked about that too.
3) I don't think I have encountered a pure class A amp so far. The expensive Cambridge was class XD, my own is probably a bog standard AB. I only drive 2 speakers, surround is not very useful/practical when you live in a 16m² apartment.
4) Naah why would I be upset? I'm just discussing technology here. I'm sure your amp sounds fine, even if it isn't the most efficient/economical piece of kit. No hard feelings involved on my part. Just curiosity / willingness to discuss stuff I deem interesting.
Originally Posted by Erard
For example, if we are so easily influenced just by knowing which amplifier is playing and we have to use sophisticated ABX tests to overcome this problem - how influenced are we by the fact that we know we are in a ABX test and not just listening to music? Listening to sound is not the same thing as listening to music.
Umm music is sound. I don't see the distinction here. Yeah, some people might strain to hear a difference where there is none but not the whole audience so on average it should cancel out.
I guess you’ve never heard of the Apogee Scintillas
Lots of features, MM/MC phono sections, I still run a turntable.
In case that wasn’t clear, the Colosseum is not an integrated amplifier.
I pretty much buy audio gear by weight, lol. If I can lift it easily that means it can be easily thrown in the trash. If it’s heavy, it’s almost always worth repairing, like my 1978 Class A amp and my Accuphase DP-65V CD player.
I care less for efficiency and economy than I do for good sound. There is nothing else like Class A in terms of musical presentation.
I’m running this Class D amp while my behemoth is in the shop. Darn you ConEd.
"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano "Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person "Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
The people on here probably aren’t aware that you and I have a mild case of the audiophilia sickness, this guy is driving Full Range Apogees with tube amps in Texas! Madness.
The people on here probably aren’t aware that you and I have a mild case of the audiophilia sickness,
Well, in spirit of 12-step programs, my first step at treatment was putting my Apogee Duetta II's and Krell monoblocks into storage. LOL. It's literally impossible to spend as much on headphones as one can spend on amps and speakers, even if you go with STAX.... Well, that is, short of getting a Sennheiser Orpheus HE-1:
Toys for when I am retired. LOL.
across the stone, deathless piano performances
"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano "Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person "Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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