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Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? #2849930
05/19/19 10:54 AM
05/19/19 10:54 AM
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Sweden
Animisha Online content OP
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Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST?
If I push a key on my cheap DP, doesn't the VST create the exact same sound as when I push the same key on an expensive DP?


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
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... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
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Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Animisha] #2849934
05/19/19 11:01 AM
05/19/19 11:01 AM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST?
If I push a key on my cheap DP, doesn't the VST create the exact same sound as when I push the same key on an expensive DP?

The sound of the VST might even be better to your specific ears than the sound of the "expensive" DP!

The main difference and the only one that I personally really care about for playing piano is the keyboard action. To get as realistic as possible a keyboard action, the pianos tend to be more expensive.

The most realistic keyboard actions are in the DPs which use real acoustical piano actions as in a real acoustical piano, like the Avantgrand N-series or the Novus NV-series. But even before the point of using a real acoustical action, the manufacturers have actions which are more and more realistic as they get more expensive (in general) - for example, with regard to the length of the keystick and the pivot point.

Otherwise, my FP30 makes piano sounds which already are lovely to my ears when I use Pianoteq for the sound generation. No reason to upgrade for sound alone.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Animisha] #2849935
05/19/19 11:01 AM
05/19/19 11:01 AM
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There’s no current VST which sounds as convincing as timbre and as responsive to half-pedaling and touch as my current piano. Sample based VST-s are great as timbre but lack in resonances and fine pedaling. Pianoteq is the opposite and lags behind in timbre.

But that can change some day.


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Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Animisha] #2849941
05/19/19 11:09 AM
05/19/19 11:09 AM
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dmd Offline
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST?
If I push a key on my cheap DP, doesn't the VST create the exact same sound as when I push the same key on an expensive DP?


Only if you wish for the touch of the keyboard to be at a certain quality level.

If you are very happy with the sound you get with your present VST and keyboard then …. you are good to go.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Animisha] #2849946
05/19/19 11:16 AM
05/19/19 11:16 AM
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So with other words, if I like my VST and I feel like an upgrade, the piano action is the only thing I have to consider. Everything else is irrelevant! thumb wow


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Animisha] #2849956
05/19/19 11:42 AM
05/19/19 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Animisha
So with other words, if I like my VST and I feel like an upgrade, the piano action is the only thing I have to consider. Everything else is irrelevant! thumb wow



I think that is pretty much true.

There are lots of factors that might be considered …. but they all fall under the category of …"like your vst".

If you like the sound you get now …. changing to a different keyboard should not change that.

UNLESS (big unless) .,... you plan to route your sound back through your new DP.

Then …. the electrical architecture of your dp comes into the picture and the sound you hear may change.

Otherwise … the keyboard you get should have no effect on the sound you hear.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: dmd] #2849965
05/19/19 12:10 PM
05/19/19 12:10 PM
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Until now, no one mentioned a BIG BIG difference between an expensive DP and VST. Using a good DP I switch on, sit in front and play, like an acoustic one. Using a VST..... well, I must connect my PC, booting up (and wait), hoping that Windows does not create any problem (and hoping some Windows update did not change any audio or software option......), and so on.
This is a very important point in my opinion.

Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Pianofortissimo] #2849973
05/19/19 12:25 PM
05/19/19 12:25 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Pianofortissimo
Until now, no one mentioned a BIG BIG difference between an expensive DP and VST. Using a good DP I switch on, sit in front and play, like an acoustic one. Using a VST..... well, I must connect my PC, booting up (and wait), hoping that Windows does not create any problem (and hoping some Windows update did not change any audio or software option......), and so on.
This is a very important point in my opinion.

This is a non-issue for me because I have my dedicated PC ($180 PC dedicated to my piano) always-on and running Pianoteq as I do my piano. Leaving both on all the time costs me about $20/year in electricity or less. The only thing I do when I want to play is sit down, flip the switch on my speakers or put on my headphones. I bet this is quicker for me than you switching on your good DP. I specifically did this because I don't want the bother of setting up or switching on, and setting everything up this way only costs me $180 (the cost of the mini-PC which I dedicate to this purpose). $180 is nominal compared to the piano cost. It is less in fact than the cost of my VST that I run on this mini-PC!

So if it is such a BIG BIG difference for you, $180 solves it as it did for me.

Last edited by Tyrone Slothrop; 05/19/19 12:28 PM.

across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Animisha] #2849981
05/19/19 12:36 PM
05/19/19 12:36 PM
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This is, for me, the most painful fact.
Originally Posted by Animisha
So with other words, if I like my VST and I feel like an upgrade, the piano action is the only thing I have to consider. Everything else is irrelevant! thumb wow
The best action is available only on the most expensive pianos. Never mind that I might prefer the sound of a virtual instrument to that of the piano. I still must pay a large premium for the unwanted sound system, just to get the action.

Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Pianofortissimo] #2849996
05/19/19 12:59 PM
05/19/19 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianofortissimo
Until now, no one mentioned a BIG BIG difference between an expensive DP and VST. Using a good DP I switch on, sit in front and play, like an acoustic one. Using a VST..... well, I must connect my PC, booting up (and wait), hoping that Windows does not create any problem (and hoping some Windows update did not change any audio or software option......), and so on.
This is a very important point in my opinion.


The question from the OP was whether or not it was necessary to purchase an expensive DP if he likes his VST.

The time it takes to boot up will not change regardless of having an expensive or cheap DP.

So that point is not significant in this case.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Pianofortissimo] #2850003
05/19/19 01:20 PM
05/19/19 01:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 784
Sweden
Animisha Online content OP
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Animisha  Online Content OP
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Originally Posted by Pianofortissimo
Until now, no one mentioned a BIG BIG difference between an expensive DP and VST. Using a good DP I switch on, sit in front and play, like an acoustic one. Using a VST..... well, I must connect my PC, booting up (and wait), hoping that Windows does not create any problem (and hoping some Windows update did not change any audio or software option......), and so on.
This is a very important point in my opinion.


Pianofortissimo, I am very happy with this comment, and I hope that more people will point out such things - so that I can decide if this is an important issue for me, or not.
At the moment, I only have the trial version of Pianoteq, but it runs smoothly on my Air (Mac). And I am not so happy about keeping it opened all the time. But if this might save me quite a lot of money, it might be worth it.


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Animisha] #2850017
05/19/19 02:13 PM
05/19/19 02:13 PM
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If you have a limited budget, Pianoteq is a good solution.
But if you can purchase a good piano, I think no such computer/VST can replace action and sound of, say, an instrument like CLP685, CA98 or similar.
Leaving all devices always powered on.... no, it's not for me. This is just my opinion.

Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Animisha] #2850028
05/19/19 02:46 PM
05/19/19 02:46 PM
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Posts: 647
Not too far North of Los Angel...
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Not too far North of Los Angel...
Action, ease of operation and aesthetics.


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Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Pianofortissimo] #2850029
05/19/19 02:48 PM
05/19/19 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianofortissimo
If you have a limited budget, Pianoteq is a good solution.
But if you can purchase a good piano, I think no such computer/VST can replace action and sound of, say, an instrument like CLP685, CA98 or similar.
Leaving all devices always powered on.... no, it's not for me. This is just my opinion.


I agree with this. With VSTs, the speaker system still matters and a good set of monitors will still be in stereo. With a high end digital, there is still the 3D aural benefits.

Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Animisha] #2850053
05/19/19 03:48 PM
05/19/19 03:48 PM
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4 reasons for me:

1. Action
2. Coming from acoustic, playing on a slab or a cabinet (any CLP or CA) does not make me feel like playing an actual piano. A hybrid does. It's subtle, but relevant to me
3. I work in tech, hence I have all sorts of crazy contraptions around me all day, every day. I want my piano experience to be as analogue as possible and certainly not include a laptop
4. I don't want the clutter of monitors, wires and an additional laptop in the way, both for aesthetic and practical reasons - again, to me playing piano is playing piano, nothing else

Last edited by Hecarim; 05/19/19 03:48 PM.
Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Pianofortissimo] #2850076
05/19/19 04:49 PM
05/19/19 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianofortissimo
If you have a limited budget, Pianoteq is a good solution.
But if you can purchase a good piano, I think no such computer/VST can replace action and sound of, say, an instrument like CLP685, CA98 or similar.
Leaving all devices always powered on.... no, it's not for me. This is just my opinion.

Yep. I like the vast sound improvement, bit of a drag powering it all up (though I have internet switched off so don't worry about updates). Quite often I just use the DP sounds for a quick practice sesh (with gritted teeth).

Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Animisha] #2850079
05/19/19 04:52 PM
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I have many, many VSTs, they are all at the ready but I almost never use them.

I like the sound of my MP11SE better.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Animisha] #2850104
05/19/19 06:07 PM
05/19/19 06:07 PM
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Latency and not having to drag my computer everywhere along to play.

Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Robert Plays Keys] #2850110
05/19/19 06:34 PM
05/19/19 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Robert Plays Keys
Latency and not having to drag my computer everywhere along to play.


I've been wondering about that actually. Why is there usually more latency with VST's than the native samples? In principle there shouldn't need to be more lag with VST's, given that DP's also use samples, DSP etc.

Re: Why buy an expensive DP when you have a VST? [Re: Animisha] #2850116
05/19/19 06:47 PM
05/19/19 06:47 PM
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Probably because of the larger sample sizes in VSTis. They can be hundreds of gigabytes, while internal samples of DPs are only a few hundred megabytes.

I'm guessing the difference in size is also a reason why many of us perceive the VSTis as more detailed, and deeper than the builtin samples.

When you're limited to a sample size of about 300MB, you can't have much details and depth in your piano sound, can you?

Last edited by TheodorN; 05/19/19 06:48 PM.

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