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Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Beakybird] #2849683
05/18/19 03:45 PM
05/18/19 03:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,198
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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Let’s suppose we really have a hi-res MIDI file. It means we have 16000 levels. The dynamic range of a piano is around 50dB. Which means that a single MIDI velocity step is 0.003dB. Can you hear that? wink Even at 127 steps that makes for 0.4dB a step. Can you hear that? smile 1dB is considered the smallest difference a golden ear can hear. Hi-res MIDI is a scam IMO. It’s the 24-bit of MIDI. Audiophilia everywhere...

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/18/19 03:46 PM.

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Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: CyberGene] #2849686
05/18/19 03:54 PM
05/18/19 03:54 PM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 550
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Beakybird Offline OP
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Let’s suppose we really have a hi-res MIDI file. It means we have 16000 levels. The dynamic range of a piano is around 50dB. Which means that a single MIDI velocity step is 0.003dB. Can you hear that? wink Even at 127 steps that makes for 0.4dB a step. Can you hear that? smile 1dB is considered the smallest difference a golden ear can hear. Hi-res MIDI is a scam IMO. It’s the 24-bit of MIDI. Audiophilia everywhere...


I don't know, when I listen to a classical piece, and I hear a note-off velocity of 93 when it is supposed to be 93.42, my ears go ouch. I can't take it!


Roland FP-90; Pianoteq 6 + many add-ons; 2 Yamaha HS8s; ATH-M50X and Samson SR850 headphones; Xenyx Q802USB interface. 2; I make a living playing a Yamaha PSR-S970 with FBT Maxx 2a's, Crowne Headset Mic. I also play guitar.
Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2849693
05/18/19 04:40 PM
05/18/19 04:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
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Nordomus Online content
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Let’s suppose we really have a hi-res MIDI file. It means we have 16000 levels. The dynamic range of a piano is around 50dB. Which means that a single MIDI velocity step is 0.003dB. Can you hear that? wink Even at 127 steps that makes for 0.4dB a step. Can you hear that? smile 1dB is considered the smallest difference a golden ear can hear. .


Dynamic range of piano is 50dB? Where did you get that number? This is what surprised me in Pianoteq as well as I wrote earlier. In pianoteq default is 40 dB which is ridiculously low. Anyway loudest piano can play is around 105 dB, queietesst around 20 or 30 I'd say? (wiki tells me that's the quiet talking loudness) so dynamic range is around 70-80 dB, On random website I've found it is clearly 70 dB between ppp and fff. Anyway what's more interesting is the thing you say about how we are able to hear only 1dB difference? I'm interested about that. Isn't this talk kind of like "people can't see more than 30 fps"?


Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Forget that I used the word "steadily", did you even get 15 progressive levels? I tried this myself by the way. I did not get 15 progressive levels, steadily or not.

Really? Gonna try it in free time, one can never know without measuring so I'm interested in the results now smile

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Beakybird] #2849705
05/18/19 05:09 PM
05/18/19 05:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,198
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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Let someone do an easy test with Pianoteq. Program one and same repeating note with alternating velocities like 64, 65, 64, 65, etc. We can try at various velocity ranges, keyboard ranges and note durations. And if we can hear a single step in the standard MIDI 2-127 values we can then also test with high-res MIDI.


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Beakybird] #2849759
05/18/19 09:40 PM
05/18/19 09:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Bangkok, Thailand
siros Offline
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I have Roland RD-800 with Hi-Res MIDI ... I tested (playing) it with Pianoteq with Hi-Res MIDI enable/disable, switching back and forth.
It doesn't give wider dynamic range.
It doesn't give finer control over dynamic control (0-127 is plenty enough for human playing).
In fact, I couldn't remember if it is enable right now. It doesn't make a difference to a player.

What it gives is ... higher (i.e. different) velocity values.
Maybe for some other instruments that can make use of bigger velocity range, but for piano I can't see it necessary.

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Beakybird] #2849781
05/19/19 12:28 AM
05/19/19 12:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,477
深水埗區
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newer player Offline
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I think the HD MIDI might be relevant beyond just finer velocity steps, which may or may not be perceivable to the average player at say the 1db level.

However, combining finer steps of velocity AND timbre, small changes might be perceivable and might more closely approximate the "natural variation" of an acoustic instrument.

On the other hand, asking current speaker and headphone technology to reproduce such subtlety may be a bridge too far.

I notice subtle differences repeating notes on an acoustic piano (and some other acoustic instruments for that matter), but don't notice such differences on my piano VIs, which grows somewhat boring. I think PianoTeq runs some random variance in sound but that is different.

Some of us might speculate that CyberGene is so happy with his new piano thanks to some secret internal HD MIDI scheme.

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2849807
05/19/19 04:26 AM
05/19/19 04:26 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 595
Celestis
Granyala Online content
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Granyala  Online Content
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Celestis
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Are you game for a little test of your fine motor control?

Oi, me want to do that!
Needed a few attempts, never tried to play a scale like that before. laugh

Careful, construction workers hands coming through!

[Linked Image]


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: newer player] #2849829
05/19/19 05:59 AM
05/19/19 05:59 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 864
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Nordomus Online content
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Originally Posted by newer player
I think the HD MIDI might be relevant beyond just finer velocity steps, which may or may not be perceivable to the average player at say the 1db level.

However, combining finer steps of velocity AND timbre, small changes might be perceivable and might more closely approximate the "natural variation" of an acoustic instrument.

This. It's not all about volume, velocity affects whole piano sound since it's the only thing we can control while pressing keys smile

Last edited by Nordomus; 05/19/19 05:59 AM.
Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Beakybird] #2849830
05/19/19 06:03 AM
05/19/19 06:03 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,198
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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Sofia, Bulgaria
Timbre changes only very slightly between similar velocities. It’s absurd you can distinguish timbre and volume changes (even combined) between thousands of adjacent steps.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: CyberGene] #2849842
05/19/19 06:44 AM
05/19/19 06:44 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,136
France
Frédéric L Online content
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Frédéric L  Online Content
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France
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Timbre changes only very slightly between similar velocities. It’s absurd you can distinguish timbre and volume changes (even combined) between thousands of adjacent steps.

I agree, this explains why VST could work with only 10-20 layers (only 10-20 different timbres), but adjust the volume depending of the velocity.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Granyala] #2849843
05/19/19 06:56 AM
05/19/19 06:56 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 6,909
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Are you game for a little test of your fine motor control?

Oi, me want to do that!
Needed a few attempts, never tried to play a scale like that before. laugh

Careful, construction workers hands coming through!

[Linked Image]

You're results are like mine. I must have tried 20 times and could not get a progressive cresc. and dim,


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2849844
05/19/19 07:01 AM
05/19/19 07:01 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 595
Celestis
Granyala Online content
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Granyala  Online Content
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Celestis
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You're results are like mine. I must have tried 20 times and could not get a progressive cresc. and dim,

I'm sure my teacher could do that.
Hey, at least I managed some resemblance of linearity between B3 and G4. laugh


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Granyala] #2849859
05/19/19 07:31 AM
05/19/19 07:31 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 6,909
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You're results are like mine. I must have tried 20 times and could not get a progressive cresc. and dim,

I'm sure my teacher could do that.

I'd like to think my teacher could too. But on the other hand, I think John Mortensen is a professor of piano performance and a Steinway Artist, and if he could manage a continuous progression in dynamics (never mind "steadily" or "linear") himself over 15 ascending/descending notes, he likely would not have made that video or it would have been different in its content. I came to his video with an open mind. I watched it and was a skeptic. I tried it myself and decided he had something there.

Originally Posted by Granyala
Hey, at least I managed some resemblance of linearity between B3 and G4. laugh

I have no doubt that if instead of about 20 times, I had tried 2000 times, at least one of those times, I would have had a progression from C3 to C5 (in mathematics it's called a "monotonic function," one that increases without reversals or duplications in value or decreases without reversals or duplication). But then doing this 2000 times wouldn't show it's consciously reproducible.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Beakybird] #2849887
05/19/19 09:12 AM
05/19/19 09:12 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,198
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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Sofia, Bulgaria
Hm, I just noticed in another thread the “Bechstein Digital Grand” sample based VST made by Bechstein themselves. I thought that particular DG reference was a fancy name invented by Pianoteq but a second read of their description actually confirms they modeled their sound after the samples of an actual piano and not after an actual piano. Which actually confirms once again a previous statement some of us have made: Pianoteq synthesizes the sound in a way that recreates a pre-recorded sound. Whether they can also model the physical object which we call “piano” rather than approaching recorded waves is a matter of dispute. Or maybe they support both? Even simultaneously? But since Bechstein DG is to my ears the least synthetic Pianoteq model so far (although I can still detect some hints of it), I’m wondering if it’s the way Pianoteq should utilize most in future.

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/19/19 09:13 AM.

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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2849888
05/19/19 09:15 AM
05/19/19 09:15 AM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 550
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Beakybird Offline OP
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There are things the ear is extremely sensitive to, like distinguishing human voices and all of the subtle emotions conveyed in speech. But I can't think of any MIDI value where HI-res MIDI can be distinguishable from regular MIDI. Pitch? Volume? Velocity? 127 gradations is plenty.
As Hi-res MIDI is CPU friendly and compatible with regular MIDI devices, why not?


Roland FP-90; Pianoteq 6 + many add-ons; 2 Yamaha HS8s; ATH-M50X and Samson SR850 headphones; Xenyx Q802USB interface. 2; I make a living playing a Yamaha PSR-S970 with FBT Maxx 2a's, Crowne Headset Mic. I also play guitar.
Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Beakybird] #2853844
05/30/19 10:54 AM
05/30/19 10:54 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,807
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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Originally Posted by Beakybird
Tell Modart about this. They'll come out with an update within a week. I don't experience this bug.
What do people think of the sound ?


Much better all round, I'd say. Just acquired it a day or two ago; all the pianos sound great and different. K2 is so usable and seems to sound like my old DGX. D4 is much improved along with Petrof and the good old Bluthner.
I'll try all the ones I haven't got soon . . . dammit, how many do i actually need?


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Beakybird] #2856601
06/08/19 07:54 AM
06/08/19 07:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 864
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Nordomus Online content
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I have 2 more questions about Pianoteq:
-when can I expect it to be on sale, some people said "summer" is it like regular thing? June, July or August?
-I've learned that buying Pianoteq means that you can update it for only a year, how much for prolonging license?

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Beakybird] #2856604
06/08/19 08:43 AM
06/08/19 08:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,136
France
Frédéric L Online content
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France
If you buy the version 6, you will be allowed to download all 6.xx.

When the v7 will arrive, it will cost 29€ to upgrade an older version.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Beakybird] #2856617
06/08/19 09:35 AM
06/08/19 09:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,422
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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Or just get the free trial edition.
It has a half-dozen or so of notes that don't play.
But those sound better than any of the others! smile

Re: Pianoteq 6.5 [Re: Nordomus] #2856620
06/08/19 09:46 AM
06/08/19 09:46 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 373
Denmark
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Denmark
Originally Posted by Nordomus

-when can I expect it to be on sale, some people said "summer" is it like regular thing? June, July or August?


Last year, on the 16th of August, I received their newsletter where a "Summer sale" was announced. The offer was 30% off the Standard version, and 30% off the upgrade price from Stage to Standard version.


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28, Pianoteq 6.5 (Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2), Garritan CFX Lite
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