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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: stamkorg] #2757510
08/10/18 07:15 PM
08/10/18 07:15 PM
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JoeT Offline
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Originally Posted by stamkorg
except the Garritan CFX, which sampled piano has no flaws with velocity jumps, pedaling, noises...?

Yamaha, Kawai and older Roland?


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2757630
08/11/18 10:12 AM
08/11/18 10:12 AM
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Vancouver, BC
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NormB Offline
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Well, getting back to the A - B comparison (although this could spiral out to samples Vs modelling), do note one thing: we are listening to the recorded AP Vs the sound generated by PT. This is an important distinction. Just as the weak point in the audio chain on the listening side is speakers (as they are electro-mechanical), the weak point in recording is the microphone. Charted standard specs for all high end microphones look good on the surface, but they nevertheless produce electrical outputs that sound dramatically different from one another on the other (listening) side. If you have any doubt, I recall a fairly controlled test of over a dozen mics on a track on the first Stereophile CD.

The reason I bring this up is that as someone who uses VSTs for personal live time playing getting to the point of 'sounding just like a recorded Steinway' is a grand step, but ultimately an unsatisfactory one. I suppose my long term hope is that 'pure' modelling could take us to the next step towards a more realistic AP sound. That PT may be based on recorded samples is therefore a little distressing to me.

Don't get me wrong: l like PT sufficiently to have just upgraded to Pro. I am pleased with their progress over the years. I am just hoping that their first level (recorded) sonic inputs wouldn't be a long term limitation of their evolution of a true AP sound.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: NormB] #2757658
08/11/18 01:37 PM
08/11/18 01:37 PM
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Austria, EU
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Originally Posted by NormB

...
That PT may be based on recorded samples is therefore a little distressing to me.
...

Exactly that was not more than a vague guess by forumite Cybergene. And quickly it is spreading out. FUD is working really well.

For example, if you train a model (e.g. a physics formula with many, many parameters) with the desired output data (e.g. a sound sample of an accoustic grand), in order to find the right set of configuration paramters, it remains still a configurable physical model and would "not be based on recored samples", as a looping ROMpler would be.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2757663
08/11/18 02:17 PM
08/11/18 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
For example, if you train a model (e.g. a physics formula with many, many parameters) with the desired output data (e.g. a sound sample of an accoustic grand), in order to find the right set of configuration paramters, it remains still a configurable physical model and would "not be based on recored samples", as a looping ROMpler would be.

To quote someone from this thread:
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Well, count me as indifferent because I don't really care how it works.
I only care about how it sounds.

The "looping ROMpler" sounds like a Yamaha or Kawai, while the "trained physical model" sounds like a Pianoteq. This is where we are now.

It's the same with vinyl and tape. Both sound like vinyl or tape respectively, providing an imperfect reproduction. Some people even like their signature and still buy vinyls to this day. But a digital audio CD doesn't sound like a CD. It sounds like the source master, it has no signature on its own. And that's what engineers where going for: a perfect digital reproduction, based on 44100 samples per second. The CD reached perfection.

Digital sampling with transparent audio codecs is just the best. We are using it in this very thread to compare a recording from a real against a virtual instrument. It wouldn't work if both would just sound like "SoundCloud upload" or "YouTube audio".


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: lophiomys] #2757666
08/11/18 02:27 PM
08/11/18 02:27 PM
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NormB Offline
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
Originally Posted by NormB

...
That PT may be based on recorded samples is therefore a little distressing to me.
...

Exactly that was not more than a vague guess by forumite Cybergene. And quickly it is spreading out. FUD is working really well.

For example, if you train a model (e.g. a physics formula with many, many parameters) with the desired output data (e.g. a sound sample of an accoustic grand), in order to find the right set of configuration paramters, it remains still a configurable physical model and would "not be based on recored samples", as a looping ROMpler would be.


Got it. Tnx.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2757672
08/11/18 02:44 PM
08/11/18 02:44 PM
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For what it's worth, I am 100% confident that second repeats are all Pianoteq.

They sounded pretty similar on my iphone speakers. But even on my laptop speakers I was 100% confident that second repeats are all pianoteq. With my modest headphones (Sony MDR-V6) it's even more obvious.

From my mp3 testing days, I know that different people are differently affected by mp3 artifacts. Some might find a specific artifact very objectionable and not others--and vice versa. To me, the synthetic attack of Pianoteq always bothered me, and therefore very easy to identify.

I hope one day Pianoteq will sound perfect. They are making progress, but they are not there today.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: toddy] #2757689
08/11/18 03:22 PM
08/11/18 03:22 PM
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Alexander Borro Offline
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Originally Posted by toddy

Overall, Pianoteq is remarkable. Playing it, you get the feeling of authenticity and character for some passages, only to come back to the synthetic-poor-approximation impression in the next moment. Certain dynamic levels, certain regions of the keyboard, still betray its nature.


For me one of those worse case moments is right there at @28 secs, it's sooooo pianoteq and a not real moment, personally I don't think it is just the attack, it is the actual timbre, the notes in the right hand at that point are for me a dead giveaway, and there is a thinness too in those notes, the metal is sorta there, but the wood and body is not coming through in the pteq model B in those notes,

I like the grotrian and steingraber a bit better for that.

While it may sound like a very derogatory thing to say towards pteq, I mean I do like it at times, but it at that moment where literally the term toy piano comes to mind, it's the thin metallic like timbre (at higher dynamics in particular), and not very grand like, but more like a tiny upright in terms of tone body as if it had a tiny soundboard or something.

Even the steinway O models I have tried in the flesh, much smaller than the B , has much more body than that in those notes.


Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: JoeT] #2757694
08/11/18 03:30 PM
08/11/18 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by stamkorg
except the Garritan CFX, which sampled piano has no flaws with velocity jumps, pedaling, noises...?

Yamaha, Kawai and older Roland?


Yes of course, I was speaking about software instuments

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: lophiomys] #2757697
08/11/18 03:37 PM
08/11/18 03:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,198
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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Originally Posted by lophiomys

Exactly that was not more than a vague guess by forumite Cybergene. And quickly it is spreading out. FUD is working really well.

For example, if you train a model (e.g. a physics formula with many, many parameters) with the desired output data (e.g. a sound sample of an accoustic grand), in order to find the right set of configuration paramters, it remains still a configurable physical model and would "not be based on recored samples", as a looping ROMpler would be.


I wrote a P.S. yesterday which I am afraid you missed and I believe I am in my rights to post again here:

Quote
P.S. You're also quoting me wrong. I didn't say I have "no time". I said I didn't have enough time for detailed review but I still had time to go through the patent. And I didn't say I have "no knowledge". I said it requires mathematical knowledge. I have a degree in physics and have had many separate mathematics course including calculus, differential equations, computational physics, numerical analysis. I haven't practiced that so I am no the best at understanding that in a blink but it's far from "no knowledge" which I didn't say.


I feel the need to repeat that quote because there's this feeling I got my statement out of thin air, whereas in fact I have a master degree in Physics and used to be very well versed in comprehending matter such as the one presented in the patent. Yes, I haven't practiced physics ever since I graduated and yes, I didn't have a whole day to read the patent. However I read it in its entirety in about 30 minutes and I've just read it once more today.

On my second read I noticed something even more intriguing and its about attack sounds actually being prerecorded (what they refer as percussive sample being interpolated with the synthesis). I still stick to my initial understanding. Although they haven't directly stated they used real recorded samples, it is my understanding that their way of synthesis is just summing sine functions representing the partials with varying damping coefficients. And they provide tables with those coefficients. Whether they have obtained those tables through direct pre-analysis of recorded samples in their labs or by any other means (like preparing them by ear?) isn't presented in the paper which us understandable.

The modeled part of the patent is about being able to influence the partial coefficients in a way that corresponds to changing various parameters of the string and the soundboard. Furthermore, for the soundboard it seems they most probably use waveguide synthesis, i.e. digital delay filters.

I would agree that being able to change string and soundboard parameters is already some kind of modeling but I would insist that it's not what I expect by modeling, namely solving differential equations describing the piano as a model which I doubt would soon be practically possible, especially in realtime.

I would like once again to clarify that I haven't stated anywhere Pianoteq is sampled. What I mean is the sound synthesis engine in Pianoteq is one which cleverly represents the piano sound by sine function sums whose damping and other coefficients, including string excitation (sympathetic string resonance), etc. is coming from pre-calculated tables and the modeling part realized by affecting those coefficients in real time.

And finally, I might be wrong because patents are often intentionally written in vague terms that are very difficult to comprehend unless one is experienced in that.

Last edited by CyberGene; 08/11/18 03:41 PM.

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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: CyberGene] #2757723
08/11/18 06:14 PM
08/11/18 06:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,425
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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CG: It sounds like the Pianoteq guys did a LOT of work.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
The modeled part of the patent is about being able to influence the partial coefficients in a way that corresponds to changing various parameters of the string and the soundboard. Furthermore, for the soundboard it seems they most probably use waveguide synthesis, i.e. digital delay filters. ...
Now if only they could redirect that work into making it sound like a piano.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2757751
08/11/18 08:20 PM
08/11/18 08:20 PM
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Greater Chicago Metro Area
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EPW Offline
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Oh!!!! Such a ruff tough crowd smile

I will take it Pianoteq in its present form. Still sounds way better then my Aunt Irene's old upright piano smile


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: EPW] #2757762
08/11/18 09:31 PM
08/11/18 09:31 PM
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Posts: 191
Boston/Cambridge
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Fleer Offline
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Yep. And that Steingräber is simply wonderful.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2757774
08/11/18 11:04 PM
08/11/18 11:04 PM
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Greater Chicago Metro Area
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EPW Offline
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Upgraded to version 6 haven't upgraded to new Steingeaber yet


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2849476
05/18/19 04:28 AM
05/18/19 04:28 AM
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Some other recordings with Pianoteq Steinway Model B.






Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2849507
05/18/19 07:44 AM
05/18/19 07:44 AM
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Hawai'i Island
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I have a very good specimen of an S&S B and Pianoteq's B simulation. I can always tell the difference, but for the purpose of silent practice, Pianoteq in combo with a good MIDI controller is entirely adequate for me. Pianoteq required a fair amount of careful adjustment to get the sound where I like it, but, again, it works for me.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2849513
05/18/19 08:08 AM
05/18/19 08:08 AM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by BigIslandGuy
I have a very good specimen of an S&S B and Pianoteq's B simulation. I can always tell the difference, but for the purpose of silent practice, Pianoteq in combo with a good MIDI controller is entirely adequate for me. Pianoteq required a fair amount of careful adjustment to get the sound where I like it, but, again, it works for me.

Have you tried the new release, 6.5, yet? They haven't revoiced the B, but they did change the hammer attack.


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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2849593
05/18/19 11:47 AM
05/18/19 11:47 AM
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Hawai'i Island
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by BigIslandGuy
I have a very good specimen of an S&S B and Pianoteq's B simulation. I can always tell the difference, but for the purpose of silent practice, Pianoteq in combo with a good MIDI controller is entirely adequate for me. Pianoteq required a fair amount of careful adjustment to get the sound where I like it, but, again, it works for me.

Have you tried the new release, 6.5, yet? They haven't revoiced the B, but they did change the hammer attack.

I haven't had a chance to download the latest - in fact I didn't even realize they had released a new update until I was reading around here on PW. I'll give it a whirl later today and get back to you on this.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2849664
05/18/19 02:27 PM
05/18/19 02:27 PM
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Northern England.
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Listening to the recording, I wasn't bothered which was real or virtual. They were both uncannily almost the same. Well good enough for the likes of me.
This would be an even better posting if other instruments were involved, then we'd see the difference in character.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2852596
05/27/19 05:00 AM
05/27/19 05:00 AM
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Another wonderful recording of my French friends with the Pianoteq Steinway B.

Piano Sonata in D Major, K. 284 - 1. Allegro

https://soundcloud.com/piano-talents-series/mozart-sonata-in-d-major-k-284-1-allegro-stephane-salort

Piano Sonata in D Major, K. 284 - 2. Rondeau en Polonaise

https://soundcloud.com/piano-talent...4-2-rondeau-en-polonaise-stephane-salort

Piano Sonata in D Major, K. 284 - 3. Tema con variazioni

https://soundcloud.com/piano-talent...84-3-tema-con-variazioni-stephane-salort

Last edited by Gibraltar; 05/27/19 05:03 AM.
Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2852634
05/27/19 08:30 AM
05/27/19 08:30 AM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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The above samples approach the slightly hollow and thin timbre of the historical fortepiano pretty well, although I personally don't like the sound of real fortepianos. But I would be hard pressed to distinguish between that Pianoteq recording and a real historical fortepiano as I've heard them on HIP recordings.

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/27/19 08:32 AM.

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Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
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