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Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: AZNpiano] #2849308
05/17/19 03:06 PM
05/17/19 03:06 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,569
Florida
cmb13 Offline
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by cmb13
I haven’t read this entire thread, nor do I intend to

Oh, I love this disclaimer.

I don't think anybody intends to read 100,000 words of rubbish, written by somebody who thinks EVERYONE is dumber than a toaster, and thinks he "owns" the thread.

Thanks ... I didn’t know how that would go over (thought I might hear something like ‘well mind your own business then’ lol).


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Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: keystring] #2849463
05/18/19 02:43 AM
05/18/19 02:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Lostinidlewonder  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
OOo I appreciate all this post bumping and feel very popular now on pianoworld ^___^ My very first thread here is so popular people can't resist posting on here to show their deep knowledge of music!!! Oh wait... they are not doing that ... oh thats a shame lol. Thanks for keeping me on top though!

Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by cmb13
I haven’t read this entire thread, nor do I intend to

Oh, I love this disclaimer.

I don't think anybody intends to read 100,000 words of rubbish, written by somebody who thinks EVERYONE is dumber than a toaster, and thinks he "owns" the thread.

Please quote anywhere where I said ALL of this, this is just opinionative drivel. This thread is my thread, if it wasn't for me it wouldn't exist, gosh you still can't understand that? Lol!! Maybe some diagrams need?? lol

Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by TimR
There are two ways you show disrespect for your audience

Actually, there is a third mode of disrespect:

The OP thinks people who don't read his verbiage are illiterate.

Another fantasy of yours, keep it coming, hilarious. Please quote anywhere where I said this, good luck finding something that is just in your own head.

Originally Posted by TimR
Originally Posted by cmb13

I haven’t read this entire thread,


Don't feel bad, nobody has.


You now look over the shoulder of everyone that uses the pianoworld? Wow you are omnipresent like a god!

Originally Posted by cmb13

....I would offer an analogy to support the OP. I have taken tennis lessons intermittently over the years. Different instructors have different ideas as to what is correct. Differing opinions on grips, backhands, serving styles, strategies. When I take a lesson now, realizing I am the amalgamation of various teachers’ styles, it is counterproductive to start fresh with an entirely new style. I simply ask them to help me with what I’m having trouble with, or to tweak one or two things. I’m not interested in assuming their style; I don’t have the time or will and it would ruin my game for months, at which point I may be in a different location with a different pro.

Hope this helps support your position.

Nope it didn't help me at all I have no idea what you are on about. I am not posting on here with the aim to coach anyone at all just share knowledge and people who find it useful can use it and those that don't don't have to use it it makes no difference to me. Why do some people think threads have to be all inclusive? That is a mystery to me.

Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Personally I don't see why me sharing my insights into teaching should be taken as "dishonest" or cause feathers to be ruffled.....

Ok, this response suggests a problem that you are able to rectify if recognize it.

I don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

Originally Posted by keystring

You seem to have read my post in a hurry, and did not take time to understand it, and then taken on a defensive position of feeling attack. I was NOT writing about YOU, but about another teacher. You responded to what you thought I said, probably by skimming through and not checking. You took offensive to ruffled feathers, when the fact is that throughout this thread, feathers are being ruffled, whether or not they should be.

I didn't take offense at all, golly gosh. I am presenting ideas without the need for interactions with others which has been taken as offensive and causing feathers to ruffle just look at the delicate petals who have been responding to my thread and not been able to deal with any of the knowledge shared smile



Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/18/19 02:49 AM.

"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2849467
05/18/19 03:04 AM
05/18/19 03:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Lostinidlewonder  Offline OP
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Posts: 184
West Australia
One thing I find about the approaches to musical analysis is that we have to know how to use the tools to work for us personally. Some analysis is more important for those interested in composition rather than those interested in learning to play a piece at an efficient rate. Some analysis comes from your own logical observation of pattern and sound, you must build upon what you see not some analysis which does not prompt you to think about more with less thought. For instance, when studying a piece with a beginner, to give them an exhausting account of all the musical analysis possible is simply confusing and in fact slow to their learning progress. We must prioritize what the student personally needs and usually it is more of technical issues not the use of analytical tools to catalog the notes of a piece.

Some may find that when studying analytical tools some are rather inefficient for our taste (but how can one tell this if they have no sense of how they personally use music analysis?). For instance I do not catch myself writing in all the harmonic structure of a piece, I know the sound of the piece I do not need to label it constantly, sometimes it might help but the point is it has a restrained usage. We don't want cover a score with analysis it in the end makes it no simpler, we need to know which parts of the score needs to be analysed to help us understand trouble spots or help us absorb parts more efficiently, they simply must have an obvious improved effect to our own learning rate.

One of the best shortcuts in the learning road is to find music that you most enjoy and feel passionate about. This requires that you explore music that you could achieve that you enjoy. There are thousands upon thousands of piece to guide a beginner through to advanced piano playing/learning ability. But you may find that if you learn music that excites you, that inspires you and you can make constant progress through these piece (not stagnate for months on one piece), you will feel a more natural path through music.

The problem I find with many students who say they love piano music is that the piece they are passionate about are often much too difficult for them to achieve. They want to have a short cut to be able to learn their dream piece. I never disallow students of mine to learn pieces they are very passionate about even though is it too difficult for them. I think extending a student is a very important part in teaching, but at the same time you need to interest the student to make steps towards making these difficult pieces more standard works. This requires that you build their knowledge on actions on the piano that is relevant to their playing.

I teach some students who love pieces where the Lh plays arpeggios and the Rh plays melody. So I focus on LH technique to deal with arpeggios through easier repertoire that use these tools, I help them to analyze arpeggio patterns and give them tools how to sight read and finger these types of works efficiently etc. You don't just in the first lesson throw all the tools at them and swamp them with the information.

The application of teaching analysis and music on a whole should be in terms of the students interest. Some people may find other things much more important than others, it is such a personal issue. It would be short sighted to say all tools are important for everyone, the fact is, they are only important for teachers and academics who might be interested to know about the various tools that have been established as effective musical analysis techniques, but when we are trying to learn a piece we must use the tools that work more effectively for us and when we really require it.

This is not to say that we couldn't map a general usage of analytical tools that would benefit most people, being able to observe chords and scales for instance are a basic tool, when we first see a Cmajor we can analyise its shape and patterns of all sorts, but eventually it becomes an old friend and we know it well enough no longer requiring the need to consciously analyize it, some people however find certain observations more powerful than others, it depends on their thinking styles. Analytical tools that require constant constant observation and do not encourage us to eventually forget about them are inefficient tools and these of course differ from person to person.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/18/19 03:05 AM.

"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: cmb13] #2849468
05/18/19 03:10 AM
05/18/19 03:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Lostinidlewonder  Offline OP
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Posts: 184
West Australia
Originally Posted by cmb13

I haven’t read this entire thread, nor do I intend to, but I would offer an analogy to support the OP. I have taken tennis lessons intermittently over the years. Different instructors have different ideas as to what is correct. Differing opinions on grips, backhands, serving styles, strategies. When I take a lesson now, realizing I am the amalgamation of various teachers’ styles, it is counterproductive to start fresh with an entirely new style. I simply ask them to help me with what I’m having trouble with, or to tweak one or two things. I’m not interested in assuming their style; I don’t have the time or will and it would ruin my game for months, at which point I may be in a different location with a different pro.

Hope this helps support your position.

I realize you are trying to support my position but I am really not trying to coach people I just want to share information without any motives. Music is different to tennis in the way that there are many different ways which can be effecitvely used at the same time, that would confuse a tennis player I bet. There are many schools of thought and many different methods and many different styles, so an experienced teacher would embrace differnces and consider how it relates to their own toolset. You are not going to get through to the others who feel hurt and offended by me I think, they think I am trying to force knowledge down their throats and am keeping them prisoner here on my thread and they must repsond ahahha. But I appreciate your support.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/18/19 03:15 AM.

"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2849469
05/18/19 03:31 AM
05/18/19 03:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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West Australia
The competitive nature of music can be very destructive and full sorts of crazy behvaior. Music and education is a gift to be shared among people, you should be happy to listen to people play, you should be glad that others spread ideas about music, it should effect you for the good! But you see in institutions and competitions and even in public sometimes the people literally hate each other, they hate to hear a good performance, they hate to hear people discuss music that might not resonate with them, they love to hear the mistakes, they want each other to lose! I've always held this saying close to me "failures want to see others fail, succesful people want to see other people succeed"

I have experienced this destructive thinking in many ways much worse than the internet, from winning most competitions I entered during my younger years I noticed the jealousy of other students and teachers, annoyance when I always was the winner. Then the few times I did not get first place I felt really bad and angry that the other person beat me and I didn't play as well. What a terrible way to think. After winning many competition you can get a big head, I use to go to all these competitions and enjoy it when the other competitors looked at me from a distance or the few who would come and asked me what I was playing. You start feeling bigger than the rest, like they are small fish and you are the shark coming to eat them all up. It just isn't a healthy way of relating to others.

In my music lessons there is no competition, I refuse to let it exist freely and try to encourage all my students not to perceive musical events through competitive eyeglasses, often I get some students telling me of a youtube video they saw and how good it was and they could never do that etc as I described in a previous post in this thread. When I teach siblings I refused to teach them the same pieces, generally I do not let them learn the same pieces but sometimes competition between parents/children is sometimes extremely healthy only because the parents are mature enough to see beyond that game and are willing to lose so their child can experience winning. There is a whole philosophy behind this that I could write a lot about but in essence if a parents is playing a game with their child they can always keep the winning out of reach from their child and only let them win when they really beat the parent, that will instill highly competitive behavior in the child. Instead if a parent allows the child to learn to simply play, to not worry about winning or losing, and the parent freely can lose to the child so they can experience winning, this will create a child who does not necessarily find winning to be that important and losing to be so terrible because they realize their parents will lose and be fine with it, so the the game can be experienced without the ultimate aim to win or lose. It goes a lot deeper than this but thats the gist of it.

Interacting with music should be enjoyable there should be no negative feelings. The more you learn about music the more you realize that it is so wide and various, it is for all people, not just professionals, not just experts who play the most demanding works or for the clever student who can play their pieces at a tip top standard. You realize there are so many pathways in music some which you may never hear about or understand and that is fine! Enjoy your own musical journey, it is your own, a seed that will grow best with your love for music and not harvesting hatred and anger.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/18/19 03:34 AM.

"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2849501
05/18/19 07:05 AM
05/18/19 07:05 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,278
Virginia, USA
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TimR Offline
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Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
I am presenting ideas without the need for interactions with others



Yes. On a forum whose purpose is interactions with others. Where everyone else present is here for interactions with others.


gotta go practice
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2849511
05/18/19 07:58 AM
05/18/19 07:58 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,989
Florida
dogperson Offline
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Hasn’t there been enough arrow slinging on this post? Time to quit posting, isn’t it????

Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: TimR] #2849518
05/18/19 08:37 AM
05/18/19 08:37 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Lostinidlewonder  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by TimR
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
I am presenting ideas without the need for interactions with others



Yes. On a forum whose purpose is interactions with others. Where everyone else present is here for interactions with others.

The key word is "need" please read more carefully TimR and not selectively.


"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: dogperson] #2849519
05/18/19 08:38 AM
05/18/19 08:38 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Hasn’t there been enough arrow slinging on this post? Time to quit posting, isn’t it????

Yeah it looks like they need to get more practice in dog lol. Maybe they should practice talking more piano issues.


"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2849774
05/18/19 11:34 PM
05/18/19 11:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,898
Canada
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Personally I don't see why me sharing my insights into teaching should be taken as "dishonest" or cause feathers to be ruffled.....

Ok, this response suggests a problem that you are able to rectify if recognize it.

I don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

I explained how I came to that conclusion in the remainder of the paragraph that you did not quote, and possibly did not read. This was the whole paragraph - missing part underlined:
Originally Posted by me
Ok, this response suggests a problem that you are able to rectify if recognize it. You seem to have read my post in a hurry, and did not take time to understand it, and then taken on a defensive position of feeling attack. I was NOT writing about YOU, but about another teacher.


I had written about a different teacher. You responded about "dishonest" thinking that I had written about you. the problem to be rectified is the tendency to not take the time to really read and try to understand what people are saying. Communication is by nature two-way. This one was very blatant. I wrote about teacher X and you thought I had written about yourself, and you immediately responded and on the offensive. THAT is a problem. More clear?

Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: keystring] #2849815
05/19/19 04:54 AM
05/19/19 04:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Originally Posted by keystring
[quote=Lostinidlewonder]Personally I don't see why me sharing my insights into teaching should be taken as "dishonest" or cause feathers to be ruffled.....

Ok, this response suggests a problem that you are able to rectify if recognize it.

I don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

Originally Posted by keystring
I explained how I came to that conclusion in the remainder of the paragraph that you did not quote, and possibly did not read. This was the whole paragraph - missing part underlined:

Originally Posted by me
Ok, this response suggests a problem that you are able to rectify if recognize it. You seem to have read my post in a hurry, and did not take time to understand it, and then taken on a defensive position of feeling attack. I was NOT writing about YOU, but about another teacher.

I still don't see how you can come to that conclusion, what do you mean "a problem that you are able to rectify if recognize.." that doesn't make sense to me because I don't see a problem that there is to rectify, if people react in a negative way is it my responsbility to change their thoughts? I don't think so, let them be negative thats up to them why should I care expecially when they don't bother to argue about the ideas I present? Anyway enough discussion about random rubbish it is irrelevant to my thread really. And just because you don't get a response from me that you expect there is no need in writing things like " you are not even reading and geting defensive feeling attacked" because I am doing none of this. If you think i am missing something restate it.


Originally Posted by keystring

I had written about a different teacher. You responded about "dishonest" thinking that I had written about you. the problem to be rectified is the tendency to not take the time to really read and try to understand what people are saying. Communication is by nature two-way. This one was very blatant. I wrote about teacher X and you thought I had written about yourself, and you immediately responded and on the offensive. THAT is a problem. More clear?

Nah I didn't think you were talking about me, I was applying what you were seeing in that other post to this post as to what others MIGHT be seeing. Or do you just want to randomly talk about another thread with no relationship to this one? That seems irrelevant then.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/19/19 05:01 AM.

"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2849822
05/19/19 05:21 AM
05/19/19 05:21 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,898
Canada
keystring Offline
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I'm out.

Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: keystring] #2849832
05/19/19 06:12 AM
05/19/19 06:12 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,278
Virginia, USA
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TimR Offline
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Originally Posted by keystring
I'm out.



Me too.


gotta go practice
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2849860
05/19/19 07:38 AM
05/19/19 07:38 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Pieces vs technical work to build technique.

When I went through music exam in the last milenium lol, I was forced to do Scales and Arpeggios and many technical exercises, I guess almost everyone did. I personally found them useless in terms of use of my time and their actual usefulness, the ideas of the stringent fingering were not all encompassing when applied to actual pieces, thus since technique and fingering are very closely connected I found they missed out a lot on teaching an understanding of technique, they also did nothing in terms of musical expression value. Labouring on technical work in isolation to pieces doesn't do as much as utilising them in actual peices.

When building students experience with technical work (scales, arpeggios, chord etc) we do have to show them many of the basics but how far do we really have to build them there and how much should we subjected to it? Most teachers will only follow single fingering ideologies and not even explore the multiple ways in which the technical work can actually be played, this sets up students for misunderstandings when trying to solve fingering in actual pieces. Most of my students who started learning piano from scratch have usually learned 100+ pieces before we tackle larger families of technical work and by then they naturally have an idea how to do them all without laboring on them individually. They understand multiple correct fingering that would work without following a single prescription because they can relate it to ideas they have experienced in actual pieces.

I find that this is an important way to build a student towards technical work, through learning many pieces first this will naturally build their understanding of the building blocks and the art of fingering to deal with them (a flexible use of them, i.e: multiple fingering to deal with it). This is much better than than studying the technical work in isolation of pieces with with stringent fingerings and then trying to applying them to pieces only to find that many pieces often break these rules because of musical context, thus leaving these students a little confused and uncertain.

Initial acquisition of coordination and fingering art using technical work I think is generally not the best approach and it should mostly be learned through pieces. I believe that it is helpful however to create "coordination challenges" for developing students, a sequence of notes in both hands which challenges certain coordination ideas. These specifically challenge coordination issues rather than a preset a singular fingering ideology that you find in a lot of technical work.

Some students if taken down the path of technical work to develop can get overly obsessed with them and aim to do them crystal clear and even and perfect. They can spend a lot of time just doing technical work! I am sure stories of great masters who tell about their initial study of piano where all they did was technical works, scales arpeggios etc for their initial years. This is almost akin to a Mr Miagi "Karate Kid" type of learning, wax on wax off, sweep the floor lol, you must do something very simple and perfect for extended periods before you are actually worthy to learn something real. Personally I find this very old fashioned but it is still encouraged to this day by some.

Chopin at one time intended to write a piano method. The work was never completed, but fragments of it remains. One fragment was preserved and given by his sister to the Princess Czartoryska after his death. The following is quite revealing:

[“No one notices inequality in the power of the notes of a scale when it is played very fast... The aim is not to play everything with an equal sound, but to acquire a beautiful quality of touch and a perfect shading of sound. For a long time players have acted against nature in seeking to give equal power to each finger. On the contrary, each finger should have an appropriate part assigned it ... There are, many different qualities of sound, just as there are several fingers. The point is to utilize the differences; and this, in other words, is the art of fingering.”]

Utilising the different qualities of sound to finger is done through practicing pieces because technical work like scales by themselves really have no musical point, we are stuck considering the physical nature a great deal more. When it is used in an actual peice scales however have meaning and that meaning is what nourishes a good technique. We also notice the many ways in which the fingerings can be used to deal with technical movements depending on the musical context and the notes that come before and after them. This application is much richer in knowledge than merely looking at technical work in total isolation of pieces.

Building students with hours of practice on pieces is much more helpful than hours of practice on just techincal excersises. This is not to say ignore technical study altogether but simply not to labor on them and not to worry about them in so much detail. Some people really get obsessed with doing them perfectly but then have little music to use them in. Some people learn scales which they have never used in a piece before! Just consider how many similar motion scales are studied and how many pieces one actually plays which use them, it is sad when the result often equals zero.

Some examinations place a lot of interest in technical work it is worth a large % of exam marks in Australia AMEB system far too much than necessary in my opinion. Because of this however many students who focus only on passing exam grades become very obsessed with technical work, to me this is not necessarily a smart way to build up your skills. Putting technical work high on the priority list of practice and not finding actual pieces to utilize them in misses out on a lot of value.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/19/19 07:40 AM.

"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2850265
05/20/19 06:15 AM
05/20/19 06:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Posts: 184
West Australia
How to build up concert performers .

A few of my students over the years have had aspirations to be solo artists and since I was a solo pianist for several years before turning to teaching I enjoy teaching them how to build it all up. Firstly I like to explain to them there is a difference between the imaginary world of being a concert artist and actually doing it. The business side of things can be too much for many who just think it is all about playing the piano. Some think that competitions are the only way to a solo career but it is not the only way, in fact that is probably the narrowest bottle head there is to enter through, and there are a lot of politics and "cloak and dagger" business going on in many competitions. There are people who proclaim that all famous pianists won some competition, that is all great and wonderful but who said to be a concerting pianist you have to be famous? If you have ambitions to play in world class concert halls you should really take a step back. These venues are usually invite only, you have to be invited to play for it, either you know someone very famous who is performing there and you get some part or you have the connections.

If you aspire for a concerting career then why don't you start doing concerts? No one is going to organise one for you, you have to get yourself into action, hire a hall, promote yourself, sell the tickets. Keep doing that and you will grow your own concerting career you will make the connections. If you love what you do you will learn the craft of managing a concert from preparation to finish. Too many young pianists who win big competitions have no idea about managing themselves, they are slaves to whichever manager is looking after them. There are many places which are dying for entertainment of all sorts, you may not survive in a large city but the smaller towns out of the way often are quite interested. I know in outback Australia in some town where there are only a few hundred residents if you host a piano concert you will draw in the entire town. From doing many smaller venues you sharpen your performance sword, you get to know the business side of it all and then you wil have more confidence to do larger venues. Social media is also a good tool these days to get yourself seen especially in smaller areas.

If your aspirations is to make money then go do something else not piano, if you want to be famous with the piano then you have to start from somewhere, no one is going to put you on the international platform and hand it to you. Don't aspire to win competitions to jump to this platform, go do some smaller concerts, make a name for yourself around where you live. Then opportunities will arise from this if you have something to offer the audience that they didn't know they needed. Concerting these days is more about just playing, you have to be able to have a good connection with your audience as well and this is a big part of securing your career.

If you think too much about your struggles and challenges while you are trying to forge a path ahead you can get depressed, scared of taking the risk. A music career is like owning your own business, no different one bit! Some people think they have to make their product so good, winning competitions, studying x hours day, studying with the best teachers in the world etc etc. The reality is many pianists miss out on how to promote their product, how to make people interested to experience their music. I have watched winners of the Sydney International competition (a major world piano event) and fallen asleep at the concerts because they have no idea how to present, they just simply play. If you love your music you will want to talk about it to your audience, give them some insight into the music and what it means to you how it moves you and how they can attach their emotion to what they listen to.

Playing concert standards are a good way to start out with but where do you plan to go from there? How do you intend to talk about what you play for your audience that is the 2nd half of your concert and something which most international performers even fail at (especially some famous ones because they have rested on their fame their whole life, public speaking is a skill all performers should study and work as hard at as they do their instruments)! So do a better job connecting with your audience and they will enjoy you a lot more. I have had people come to me after concerts saying that it was the best piano concert they have ever attended and start rattling names of famous pianists they have seen in concert. Why do they feel inspired to say this? Is it because I played better than these pianists? I really don't think so, we all play differently not necessarily better, but what I am sure I am better at is talking to my audience. I can get them to laugh, to sigh, cry etc simply by relating them to the lavish stories and lives of the composers beg to be told, their pieces express "hidden" meaning which you can reveal to your audience. They will love you for it being able to listen to music in a more educated manner.

Of course how you play must be good quality, interesting and it has to capture your audience. People are not interested in just the right notes being hit or playing super fast. After 10 minutes of seeing mad virtuosity the effect generally wears off the audience, people want to hear the music they don't care about how difficult it is to play the piece (most concert goers anyway). Constructing a repertoire which is filled with familiar works for the average concert goer to emotionaly attach to as well as introducing some lesser known works or gems is a balancing act. Some people think they are playing for a concert hall filled with professors of music where in reality the majority of listeners are really just the average person!


"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2850580
05/21/19 02:07 AM
05/21/19 02:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
Full Member
Lostinidlewonder  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Considering the line between Competence and Performance:

"Chomsky separates competence and performance; he describes 'competence' as an idealized capacity that is located as a psychological or mental property or function and 'performance' as the production of actual utterances. Linguistic competence is the system of linguistic knowledge possessed by native speakers of a language. It is distinguished from linguistic performance, which is the way a language system is used in communication.

Linguistic theory is concerned primarily with an ideal speaker-listener, in a completely homogeneous speech-community, who knows its (the speech community's) language perfectly and is unaffected by such grammatically irrelevant conditions as memory limitations, distractions, shifts of attention and interest, and errors (random or characteristic) in applying his knowledge of this language in actual performance. ~Chomsky,1965"

In regard to language of music I see parallels, notably how those who study piano for instance can have the acknowledgement of ideal competence and know what needs to be done to improve but their performance highlights their disconnection to their competence or certainly some kind of forgetfulness or unwillingness or inability to follow what they know. You can know how to achieve a task but to actually go through and make it a reality is a different matter. Some may think they are competent with musical language and how it is trained but their performance is full of issues such as lack of practice, motivation, lack of goal setting, ignoring teachers advice, making poor fingering decisions, lack of expression etc and some perform happily at odds with their competence and are not affected by the difference. The trap is that many can mistake their competence for their performance without really considering it or being affected by the difference.

As music listeners who are fully competent as to what sounds good or not to our ears we can fully understand someone's musical language even see past their errors and inefficiencies just because a performance doesn't highlight an ideal competence their performance is still appreciated and understood. Some listeners performance of their listening competence however can produce bad results such as bias towards tempo or certain interpretations. As teachers we can even mistake a students competence as easily transferable to their performance. In lessons a student can know exactly what is taught but then go home and perform that poorly. Mostly the performance is affected by poor practice time management and discipline towards work. As musicians honing their craft we need to be wary that we are actively applying what we know and notice what we are failing to acheive and why. I notice a monkey on pretty much everyone's back, a psychological resistance to perform what they know effectively. It is what we all must work against and certainly separate our musical competence to our actual performance of that competence is important.


"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2851126
05/22/19 12:45 PM
05/22/19 12:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
Full Member
Lostinidlewonder  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Building up musical maturity.

I've had very young students say to me that they don't want to learn the piano. I ignore it the first time they say it. If they bring it up again sometime down the track I will take notice and mention it to the parents. There is literally no point in teaching a child who says they don't want to learn something. If they vocalize it you need to take action. I've had some that say nothing and do it because their parents want them to, I will not refuse to teach them because it is never too late to learn that sometimes in life we have to do things we don't exactly want to do!

Some children say things which doesn't have real motivation behind it except to escape work. They might just want to get out of the work required from them sitting in a lesson, whether it be piano or any other subject for that matter. Some can feel agitated in lessons and not really listen to advice you give them. I feel that they sometimes do this because they don't like to think that they are doing something at their highest potential. With these students I will challenge them to do it another way rather than correcting them.

Some will not want to play something differently and try to persuade you that how they are currently doing it is fine enough. This makes me think that they are afraid to consider that how they do something might not be the best way and the effort to change provides benefits they are currently disinterested in. Bright young students can be this way, they play sports and know they are doing it right because they win, they get high marks in class because it says so on the test papers, but with music there is a broad degree of what constitutes good, some of them think it is good if all the notes and fingers used are correct. There is that musical maturity that we have to build up in them sometimes and this may be a long term goal. You would not want a total beginner to play like a professional concert pianist immediately because there are many other stages of good that they must achieve before they get that but what stages are they personally ready for, we as teachers sometimes need to prepare them for that and not shove them into it.

So I find some young students are not mentally capable rather than physically. They may have the ability to improve but their mental capacity to deal with change and reassessing the way they do things is not at that same level. If we push for too much change they can get agitated and lose interest in the lesson and sometimes may even try to distract us from pushing the issue too hard which we should look out for and accept that we are going too far. Give them space to breath and give them your trust that they will try to work it out and at least pay attention that there is need for improvement. There are other wars to be won further down the track, we can always test again if they are ready in the not too distant future, no need to force the issue, give them that time to mature musically themselves.

This also has relevance to more adult students, allowing them to mature musically. If we obsess with details of their music study whether it is expression, technique or discipline and the student is not really interested or ready to recieve such improvements we can overwhelm them, not necessarily with the work load but rather with an amount of work which provides benefits they are not ready to appreciate or are interested in. Some adult students may indeed just as younger students feel suffocated and may feel that the lesson is dragging on or progression is at a snails pace if we overly obsess on every detail and improvement that can be done. As teacers need to keep the flow of lessons and new material going as well as build up their skills but keeping in mind that what we build doesn't flounder about waiting for improvements that they are not fully interested in. Once you have their interest, once their musical maturity is at the correct level for what you teach they will work much better because it is work they appreciate and are keen to learn about.

Take training sight reading for example, there has to be a readiness to appreciate the benefits of sight reading first and foremost, then an ability to humble themselves and study works which are much easier than their playing potential (since the majority of sight reading training comes from studying "easier" works). If you force students into sight reading regiemes and work with many of pieces of a low level they will hate you for it and find lessons extremely boring, but those who have matured to a certain point where they understand the benefits of improving reading skills and understand how it will help them learn their music will subject themselves to studying works at a lower level simply to build that important skill that they acknowledge. There are of course games and other ways to introduce students into reading skills but the serious training requires that they do want to get better at it.

Some teachers merely force students into some improvements because it will be for their own good whether they personally want to do it or not. Polite and diligent students will do whatever their teacher asks for but we realy want to produce students like this that simply jump through any hoops we put before them? We want them to enjoy and willingly study what they want and we should encourage their musical maturity in a healthy way to promote good direction and not merely force their direction.


"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2851241
05/22/19 06:38 PM
05/22/19 06:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,739
B
bennevis Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,739
Lostinidlewonder:

Have you ever read your own posts? Do you know the meaning of the word "edit"?

I felt myself losing the will to live when I read this after returning from vacation. Then more, and more, and even more like it:

Quote
The internet is full of those who merely want to criticise, it makes them feel better and keeps them in their safe space where they don't have to learn anything, I let them do that if it is what they need, I do feel sorry for those who need to do things like in really it effect on me is like water on a ducks back, I've been on the internet a long time and never bothered when strangers who have no meaning in my life spew forth unthoughtful criticism.

Guess who wrote that?

You spend the whole of this silly thread criticising everyone in PW, except those who (apparently) agree with your sermons (actually, the plural is rather generous; your preaching here is just one long sermon repeated ad nauseam in about 100,000 similar ways - actually, the number of zeros is probably doing an injustice to your amazing propensity for sheer verbiage) then affect hurt and pretend yourself to be above it all, when you are actually the perpetrator.

Do yourself and everyone else a big favour, and read all your own posts from the beginning of this thread. Don't worry, it shouldn't take more than 200 hours. Just think: what would someone else reading your hyper-overinflated, egoistic, egotistic and pompous posts think of you as a teacher?

BTW, the ability to put oneself in others' shoes is called empathy, which you appear to have no idea of.

I for one am very glad that I never had a teacher in my ten years of piano lesson who remotely resembled you, or I'd have given up piano and switched to the onde martenot or ukulele instead...........


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2851250
05/22/19 07:02 PM
05/22/19 07:02 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,989
Florida
dogperson Offline
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dogperson  Offline
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,989
Florida
I am saddened by the venom in this thread. Don’t like the tone or content? Don’t read. Too long? Don’t read. REALLY don’t like it? Block poster. Is there anything to be gained from these responses???? I guess it might make everyone feel good to write something snippy ; but I don’t understand that either, quite frankly.

Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: dogperson] #2851261
05/22/19 08:19 PM
05/22/19 08:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,251
In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Offline
2000 Post Club Member
NobleHouse  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,251
In the Ozarks of Missouri
Originally Posted by dogperson
I am saddened by the venom in this thread. Don’t like the tone or content? Don’t read. Too long? Don’t read. REALLY don’t like it? Block poster. Is there anything to be gained from these responses???? I guess it might make everyone feel good to write something snippy ; but I don’t understand that either, quite frankly.

I have to agree. If it bothers you, or you find it boring/not interesting-just ignore the poster and thread. No need to criticize.


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