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Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: texasdiver] #2849499
05/18/19 06:51 AM
05/18/19 06:51 AM
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If you can post some pictures of the scratches and dings, some members will probably be able to say with a good degree of certainty how well they could be fixed by a good finish expert.

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Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: pianoloverus] #2849512
05/18/19 08:00 AM
05/18/19 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
If you can post some pictures of the scratches and dings, some members will probably be able to say with a good degree of certainty how well they could be fixed by a good finish expert.

Of course the other issue is that if the exterior is in bad shape, what about the inner workings. Soundboard, pinblock, etc. It’s not that old, but depending on how it has been stored, humidity issues, etc, it could be in any kind of shape.

Sounds like getting the technician out there is a good move.


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Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: texasdiver] #2849527
05/18/19 09:01 AM
05/18/19 09:01 AM
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University practice piano.... technician time. I'd be more concerned about inside than outside.

Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: dhull100] #2849541
05/18/19 09:33 AM
05/18/19 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by dhull100
University practice piano.... technician time. I'd be more concerned about inside than outside.

Absolutely. Nothing gets a workout like university practice pianos. Nothing. Adds years. There's a lot of felt in there. It just wears out.

Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: texasdiver] #2849563
05/18/19 10:37 AM
05/18/19 10:37 AM
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Indeed, the prior use as a university practice piano goes a long way into explaining the price, which seemed impossibly low for one of these. It could still be a very good option for the price, but you're going to want the tech to go over it with a fine-toothed comb. Watch out for evidence of drink spills, strings being badly tarnished from being touched, and all the wear points in the action, which can indicate upcoming repairs that could be 4-figure amounts of money.


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Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: pianoloverus] #2849569
05/18/19 10:53 AM
05/18/19 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
If you can post some pictures of the scratches and dings, some members will probably be able to say with a good degree of certainty how well they could be fixed by a good finish expert.


I didn't take pictures but there are probably a couple dozen small scratches and dings around the perimeter, top and music desk. Mostly they are small but perhaps 3 or 4 of them are deep enough to expose the white or lighter color underneath. It's all cosmetic, no LARGE gouges. But as an amateur woodworker there are a lot of little spots to fill and refinish that I'd almost think it would be easier to just refinish the entire thing rather than to try to spot fill a whole bunch of little nicks and dings.

The sort of thing that you'd expect if the piano is being moved around and bumping into doorways, elevators, etc. Metal music stands being banged against it and so forth. Not at all the sort of thing you'd expect to see for a piano sitting in someone's house. The piano my kids have been playing on for 9 years has not a scratch on it by comparison.

Last edited by texasdiver; 05/18/19 10:53 AM.
Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: texasdiver] #2849715
05/18/19 05:51 PM
05/18/19 05:51 PM
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I’ve seen some really professional refinish work done on furniture and pianos so dings and dents shouldn’t worry you too much. Sometimes scratches and dings give you a lower price on purchase. I admit I flinch thinking about a scratch on my piano or vehicle but there are artists that can make it look like new, so when/if I see a scratch after the involuntary grimace, I know it can be fixed. Another weird thing, once my SUV or piano has been scratched, the pressure is off. I can relax a bit.


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Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: j&j] #2849726
05/18/19 06:52 PM
05/18/19 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by j&j
I’ve seen some really professional refinish work done on furniture and pianos so dings and dents shouldn’t worry you too much. Sometimes scratches and dings give you a lower price on purchase. I admit I flinch thinking about a scratch on my piano or vehicle but there are artists that can make it look like new, so when/if I see a scratch after the involuntary grimace, I know it can be fixed. Another weird thing, once my SUV or piano has been scratched, the pressure is off. I can relax a bit.


That's the thing. We have a yellow lab and two cats. All our furniture is cheap IKEA stuff because the pets and kids tend to abuse it. So a perfectly polished museum-quality piano would be something I'd probably stress over and make everyone else in the house crazy. So buying one that is pre-dinged up will take the pressure off.

Frankly I'm probably exagerating how bad it is. When you walk around a piano doing the white glove thing inspecting every surface you are going to find dings and scratches that might not even be visible from 3 ft away. I don't know how much will polish away too. It looks like the piano was not polished much or correctly because I can see the circular swirls and I don't think circular is the way to polish these lacquered pianos. I think one would want to polish it along the direction of the grain.

I spent a half an hour on the phone with the tech who has been servicing, tuning, and voicing the piano every 6 months for the past 10 years. He spoke very highly of it, says these are built like tanks and that all the structural pieces are in excellent condition. He says what he would do is just put it in the room and have the kids play it hard for 5 years then when we finally have an empty house and no more chaos, perhaps treat the piano to a good refinishing.

I think I'll schedule a different tech out to give it a thorough inspection and then if he gives thumbs up we'll pull the trigger.

Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: texasdiver] #2849727
05/18/19 06:55 PM
05/18/19 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by texasdiver
Originally Posted by j&j
I’ve seen some really professional refinish work done on furniture and pianos so dings and dents shouldn’t worry you too much. Sometimes scratches and dings give you a lower price on purchase. I admit I flinch thinking about a scratch on my piano or vehicle but there are artists that can make it look like new, so when/if I see a scratch after the involuntary grimace, I know it can be fixed. Another weird thing, once my SUV or piano has been scratched, the pressure is off. I can relax a bit.


That's the thing. We have a yellow lab and two cats. All our furniture is cheap IKEA stuff because the pets and kids tend to abuse it. So a perfectly polished museum-quality piano would be something I'd probably stress over and make everyone else in the house crazy. So buying one that is pre-dinged up will take the pressure off.

Frankly I'm probably exagerating how bad it is. When you walk around a piano doing the white glove thing inspecting every surface you are going to find dings and scratches that might not even be visible from 3 ft away. I don't know how much will polish away too. It looks like the piano was not polished much or correctly because I can see the circular swirls and I don't think circular is the way to polish these lacquered pianos. I think one would want to polish it along the direction of the grain.

I spent a half an hour on the phone with the tech who has been servicing, tuning, and voicing the piano every 6 months for the past 10 years. He spoke very highly of it, says these are built like tanks and that all the structural pieces are in excellent condition. He says what he would do is just put it in the room and have the kids play it hard for 5 years then when we finally have an empty house and no more chaos, perhaps treat the piano to a good refinishing.

I think I'll schedule a different tech out to give it a thorough inspection and then if he gives thumbs up we'll pull the trigger.

Sounds like a smart plan. Good luck and keep us posted.


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Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: texasdiver] #2849741
05/18/19 07:39 PM
05/18/19 07:39 PM
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They are great pianos. Everything can be fixed. Just a matter if time, talent, and money. You won't find a better made 6'4" grand anywhere in that price range.

One reason for the price is that Walters do not have wide spread name recognition. Nice piano...just not well known.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 05/18/19 07:39 PM.

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Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: texasdiver] #2849902
05/19/19 09:37 AM
05/19/19 09:37 AM
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Georgia, USA
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I agree the case can be fixed/refinished, but at a cost.

I've seen fairly nice, brand-name pianos with the case and exterior kind of banged up and scratch up; some much worse than others. I was fortunate in that the Yamaha C7 I purchased from a Church was in very good condition, inside and out (minus a couple of broken strings smile ). When Sally Phillips visited my place to do some work on the C7 she commented on what nice condition it was in, including the case.

My Baldwin R, on the other hand, had experienced a couple of rough moves and a dog that liked to chew on certain areas of the piano cabinet. But it was not something I couldn't fix, or at least improve to an extent.

The worst examples of scratched up and banged up piano cases and cabinets I've seen have been college practice room pianos. I think they get the brunt of the scars and nicks. Nevertheless, as others have said, it (scratches and dings) is something that can be fixed or improved greatly.

I think the worst example of a nasty piano I ever saw was a used 6'8" Kimball Viennese grand at a piano dealer in Macon Ga. The outer case looked okay, minus some very fine hairline cracks in the thick, glossy polyester (ebony) finish, but the sound-board, bridges and strings had a very nasty looking residue/glaze that looked like grease mingled with dust. The store owner said he was selling it on consignment for a friend, but my guess was that it spent a good portion of its life in a restaurant or bar (near the grill:-).

But even so, being the piano enthusiast that I am (or at least used to be) and not afraid of a challenge, I made them an offer on the piano, which they turned down. That was probably good fortune on my part... smile

Good luck with the Charles Walter!

Rick


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Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: Rickster] #2849950
05/19/19 11:23 AM
05/19/19 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Rickster
I agree the case can be fixed/refinished, but at a cost.

I've seen fairly nice, brand-name pianos with the case and exterior kind of banged up and scratch up; some much worse than others. I was fortunate in that the Yamaha C7 I purchased from a Church was in very good condition, inside and out (minus a couple of broken strings smile ). When Sally Phillips visited my place to do some work on the C7 she commented on what nice condition it was in, including the case.

My Baldwin R, on the other hand, had experienced a couple of rough moves and a dog that liked to chew on certain areas of the piano cabinet. But it was not something I couldn't fix, or at least improve to an extent.

The worst examples of scratched up and banged up piano cases and cabinets I've seen have been college practice room pianos. I think they get the brunt of the scars and nicks. Nevertheless, as others have said, it (scratches and dings) is something that can be fixed or improved greatly.

I think the worst example of a nasty piano I ever saw was a used 6'8" Kimball Viennese grand at a piano dealer in Macon Ga. The outer case looked okay, minus some very fine hairline cracks in the thick, glossy polyester (ebony) finish, but the sound-board, bridges and strings had a very nasty looking residue/glaze that looked like grease mingled with dust. The store owner said he was selling it on consignment for a friend, but my guess was that it spent a good portion of its life in a restaurant or bar (near the grill:-).

But even so, being the piano enthusiast that I am (or at least used to be) and not afraid of a challenge, I made them an offer on the piano, which they turned down. That was probably good fortune on my part... smile

Good luck with the Charles Walter!

Rick

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Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: j&j] #2850181
05/19/19 11:35 PM
05/19/19 11:35 PM
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This is just a speculation, but I thought it **could** be possible that this "university practice piano" for which the current owner paid so much, might have been in a "loaner program" at a university or college.

If that is the case, then, based on what I know from working on setting up a loaner program at a school where I was teaching, it could be that the piano was in service at the school for less than a year before being sold.

At 6'4" it also seems unlikely - though not impossible - that it was in a practice room, more likely a teaching studio, or a class room.

...which could mean it hasn't been beat to death yet, thought it would have had a lot more wear than typical for "home use".

Seems worth a technician's inspection fee at the asking price.


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Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: Seeker] #2850495
05/20/19 05:16 PM
05/20/19 05:16 PM
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Vancouver, WA
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Originally Posted by Seeker
This is just a speculation, but I thought it **could** be possible that this "university practice piano" for which the current owner paid so much, might have been in a "loaner program" at a university or college.

If that is the case, then, based on what I know from working on setting up a loaner program at a school where I was teaching, it could be that the piano was in service at the school for less than a year before being sold.

At 6'4" it also seems unlikely - though not impossible - that it was in a practice room, more likely a teaching studio, or a class room.

...which could mean it hasn't been beat to death yet, thought it would have had a lot more wear than typical for "home use".

Seems worth a technician's inspection fee at the asking price.


That makes more sense. I've never seen HS or college practice rooms with grand pianos in them so it was probably more likely in a music classroom for band or orchestra or choir. Might explain why the exterior is more battered than the interior which looks pristine. If it was always getting pushed around a classroom but not necessarily getting used all that much.

Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: texasdiver] #2850546
05/20/19 09:06 PM
05/20/19 09:06 PM
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The university where I take lessons had about 30 rooms - all with grands.


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Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: texasdiver] #2850737
05/21/19 12:33 PM
05/21/19 12:33 PM
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Went to 3 schools of music - long story - all had grands in practice rooms - as well as some uprights.

Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: texasdiver] #2855871
06/05/19 06:45 PM
06/05/19 06:45 PM
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This might be anecdotal, but when I had a CW console, it seemed like was a breaking a bass string every couple of months. Of course, maybe that's because the bass was so good for a little piano.

Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: texasdiver] #2857116
06/09/19 09:48 PM
06/09/19 09:48 PM
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"... if a college uses pianos for 5 years and then turns them over. Her price of 11,750 is quite a price drop and seems like a reasonable price. I'm just kind of fussy and wonder about paying that much money for a piano that is somewhat nicked up."

Yes, a university practice room sacrificial virgin. The only worse environment is a church. They buy 'em too small, beat 'em too hard, and economize on the climate control, so it's always up and down, up and down, every week. But I see hope for you in the next sentence:

"I think it is worth getting my tech out to inspect it which I'm going to do and see what he has to say."

Ding-ding-ding, Jackpot! And by this end of the thread, we already know that the seller has been very good to her piano and has put you in touch with the tech who maintained it. This would be almost as good as it could be, for buying a used piano which is (1) within the time window of its musically useful life, (2) of excellent make, (3) BOTH daughters have confessed in the presence of witnesses that they find it acceptable, (4) that you can afford, and (5) that you're sending your tech over, just to be sure. Call it pro forma.

"I have no idea whether it is even possible to polish up and refinish a piano like this that has a satin lacquer finish. It would probably require a complete refinishing to erase all the little dings. So probably not worth it and just consider that part of the "patina" I guess."

You guess that, and I'll guess that the saying which "Reader's Digest" printed many years ago, says it for you. It went, "When we got married, the floor looked like the top of the piano. After raising three kids, the top of the piano looks like the floor."

You are a lucky man, it sounds like to me.


Clef

Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: texasdiver] #2857352
06/10/19 07:37 PM
06/10/19 07:37 PM
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If I could say one more thing, you might offer the seller a refundable deposit, to hold the piano until your tech gives you the story. Nothing says, "I'm really serious," like a cash deposit. Write up a little receipt stating the terms, another sign of the serious buyer who means business.

About that $80,000 quote. When I bought my piano, seven or eight years ago, the salesperson tried to interest me in one of the CW grands that stood right beside the one I bought. I knew nothing of the marque, just enough to notice that the underside of the piano was finished as nicely as the top (Darlene pointed this out). And, that I got more of a sound in the store from the one I bought. The CW was quieter. It was much later that I learned that the size and sound envelope were intentionally made that way, to better suit playing conditions in a residence.

Stores are not a great place to listen to pianos. My ears paid for my ignorance, until I managed to get the large and oddly-shaped living room acoustically tuned.

I also loved the Kawai RX-5's key finish, and the touch. Just a beautiful action. I got that part right; they are famous for this. I did not love the plastic-topped keys on the CW, and I don't remember the touch. Oh well, so I missed what might have been a wonderful opportunity.

The price was pretty close to the longer RX, maybe a few thousand more. Call it 35,000, maybe 36. Not 80, certainly. Both were new. Possibly a little horse-trading might have gotten it down some. I've tried to think of how that figure could have come up. An insurance valuation, just a little puffed up? A store, marking the price up to twice what they wanted to get? Sounds pretty edgy to me. I'm going to go with, "It was a typo." These things happen, even in the most reputable publications.

Come to think of it, while you're writing up a receipt for your deposit, you might as well mention the price you were offered, and which you have agreed to pay, pending your own tech's evaluation. If he is able to give you an estimate on whatever work needs to be done to get it in tip-top shape for your most finicky young daughter. Add that to the sale price and you will know the actual figure.

The price offered is very close to what the same dealer I bought from asked for a beautiful CW upright. Not with the fancy decor treatment; it was a plain 'ebony' polish case. I wanted it! I have become a rabid partisan of this little piano that gives back so much.

Anyway, congratulations again.


Clef

Re: Opinions on Charles Walter Grands? [Re: texasdiver] #2857470
06/11/19 10:29 AM
06/11/19 10:29 AM
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To be blunt...

If the piano checked out, buy it. Buy it and don't look back.

They are very good pianos. Ask yourself would you give $11K for a good Steinway of that vintage. Well, they are built just as well (probably better) and with the right prep can sing.

I'm biased, of course. The 6'4" is one of my favorites.


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