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Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2848626 05/16/19 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Groove On
For me it's kinda like burgers and steak. Under US$15 there are lots of good burgers out there, but if a burger costs US$20 - why not just head over to Peter Luger or Wolfgang and gets some really good steak! After all, under US$15 steaks can't be all that great, and a US$20++ burger is still freakin' a burger.

What steak can you get at Peter Luger's for $20? I was last there in the 90's, and I don't recall being about to get a steak there for $40 back then. Haha...


I’m a vegetarian and even I know that you can’t get a steak at Peter Luger’s for $20. You can’t get much in New York for $20. I think it costs me $20 to walk to the mailbox in the lobby of my building. Just kidding on the last statement.


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Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2848631 05/16/19 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Groove On
For me it's kinda like burgers and steak. Under US$15 there are lots of good burgers out there, but if a burger costs US$20 - why not just head over to Peter Luger or Wolfgang and gets some really good steak! After all, under US$15 steaks can't be all that great, and a US$20++ burger is still freakin' a burger.

What steak can you get at Peter Luger's for $20? I was last there in the 90's, and I don't recall being about to get a steak there for $40 back then. Haha...

Well I was hoping that point was implicit in the comparison. Once you decide to go above the everyday affordable item - you might as well splurge and get the whole kit and caboodle.

For reference I ate at Peter Luger’s last week, the bill was US$175 per person and worth every penny.


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Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Groove On] #2848632 05/16/19 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Groove On
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Groove On
For me it's kinda like burgers and steak. Under US$15 there are lots of good burgers out there, but if a burger costs US$20 - why not just head over to Peter Luger or Wolfgang and gets some really good steak! After all, under US$15 steaks can't be all that great, and a US$20++ burger is still freakin' a burger.

What steak can you get at Peter Luger's for $20? I was last there in the 90's, and I don't recall being about to get a steak there for $40 back then. Haha...

Well I was hoping that point was implicit in the comparison. Once you decide to go above the everyday affordable item - you might as well splurge and get the whole kit and caboodle.

For reference I ate at Peter Luger’s last week, the bill was US$175 per person and worth every penny.


LOL. You logic is akin to the “more you spend the more you save” argument, which is fallacious. Every extra dollar spent is real money out of a person’s pocket.

There are many items available between a relatively inexpensive item and an expensive item. Just because I’m paying $2.75 for the subway does not mean I might as well drop $275 for private car service.

I’m sure most people on this forum would be aghast at the thought of dropping $175 a person for a meal, and would found far cheaper alternatives. My wife and I would spend that much twice a year, on our birthdays, and we’ve stopped doing that.

Last edited by LarryK; 05/16/19 02:25 AM.

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Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2848636 05/16/19 02:38 AM
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Let's please leave the burgers and steak behind. I like both ... but they provide no insight here.

Burgers and steak are consumables. They're here and gone in minutes.
A piano is a durable good. You'll likely own one for many years.

The purchase economics of food offers no guidance when buying a piano. None.

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2848955 05/16/19 05:47 PM
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To the OP: There really isn't any definitive answer to your question. Still, some thoughts: I would say that some acoustics can be much, much better than most of the digitals in your budget. A good and well-regulated acoustic in good shape will give you a richness, dynamic capabilities and an immediacy of expression that even the best digitals just can't match.

But they can also be much worse than digitals, particularly if you use headphones and/or good VST's. Acoustic pianos are fragile, living things. They need good care and treatment. If they don't get that, they wither away.

So a DP is the safe choice. You know what you get, and it works. Particularly when partnered with headphones and a VST you like. You won't go wrong with the VPC-1, Pianoteq (or a sampled VST) and a pair of open-back Sennheiser cans, for example. The action doesn't need good regulation, it just works. The internals of the piano will always be in order. No hassle. But if you have the possibility to get a good upright... I don't think you will regret it.

But finding a good second-hand upright is not easy! I recently bought a second-hand upright. It's an old Rönisch from the 1920s, fully renovated and restored 10 years ago. It's the maximum of what I can afford, about 6800 grand. This piano is a technical wonder, in many ways, and is one of only two-three uprights I've ever played which could match the feeling I get from playing on a good grand (the other upright I really really liked was a Steingraeber which costs close to 50000 grand).

Here's the thing though... I have searched for a good upright for over a year. I have visited four piano shops regularly. I've played their pianos and discussed with the salesmen, to get a sense of what I should look for. I have also visited a lot of private sellers and played on their pianos. Then, when this Rönisch suddenly came up for sale, I just KNEW immediately that I couldn't let that one get away. I'm getting it in a couple of weeks. Then I will sell my old DP (Kawai CS10), and probably get a cheap slab piano for quiet practice in the evenings. Perhaps a VPC-1 (or VPC-2 if it comes?) if I can afford it.

So if you are serious about getting an upright, my best advise is to take your time. Get to know acoustic uprights. What to look for, what to avoid, particularly with older ones. I think the best chance of getting a steal is to find an old really big upright in good shape, preferrably one that's been living happily in the living room of an old lady for 50-60 years. It happens from time to time that these old ladies die, and their kids don't know what to do with their old large pianos, and just want to get rid of them. Then find a piano techinician, and have him or her inspect the piano. How much work does this one need? Will it be expensive to really get it to work properly? That's important to know before committing to buy.

If you search long enough, something will certainly show up!

But it all starts with taking your time, and getting to know what upright pianos are all about. Becoming a "regular" at piano shops is a good start. Good luck!

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2848969 05/16/19 06:19 PM
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A couple of additional points on the Yamaha P22. Yamaha makes excellent stuff. They really do. But a height of 45 inches, or 114 centimers, just isn't enough. Size does matter. To really get the richness of sound that a good upright can offer, 120 cm is the minimum you should aim for. Get to 125 and die a happy man.

Also, Yamaha's line of pianos in this range are often quite "bright" in their sound and presentation. This depends between individual pianos of course. But as an overall rule, that's the case. I like a richer and more romantic tone in pianos. Others like it bright.

Yamaha also makes pianos according to a "linear" philosophy, where the different registers - bass, mid and treble - have the same tonal characteristics. Other manufacturers - like Bluthner, Steingraeber, Rönisch, a lot of the old German brands back in the day, and even some newer Kawai models - believe in voicing pianos in a different way. The bass is voiced to be richer and fatter, and the mid and treble are voiced to be more clear and distinct and clean. For solo piano in the home, I believe the latter is the better choice. For institutions and playing in ensembles, which the P22 seems to be geared towards, the linear voicing will often be the better choice.

In digitals, you need to get a good VST to really get a choice of different kinds of voicings.

Last edited by oivavoi; 05/16/19 06:20 PM.
Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2849019 05/16/19 08:22 PM
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That's really good advice oivavoi. I am really new to piano. I really have no idea what acoustic piano's should or do sound like across the different types.. We had an old upright years ago but how it played and sounded I cannot remember. I will start doing some hands on research for sure and find out what I like and don't like. Your advice about taking my time with this process is spot on. Plus right now I don't have the space for an upright unless I get rid of a piece of furniture and my wife is not keen on that idea.

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2849268 05/17/19 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Arcflash
That's really good advice oivavoi. I am really new to piano. I really have no idea what acoustic piano's should or do sound like across the different types.. We had an old upright years ago but how it played and sounded I cannot remember. I will start doing some hands on research for sure and find out what I like and don't like. Your advice about taking my time with this process is spot on. Plus right now I don't have the space for an upright unless I get rid of a piece of furniture and my wife is not keen on that idea.


Glad it was helpful!

What I would do is simply to go to a couple of piano stores and ask them to demonstrate pianos in different price ranges. Play them yourself, and ask the seller to play a bit as well. They will always be happy to do that, IME. There are not that many people buying pianos these days, sadly, so they are happy to get people to talk to. Ask them: What do I get when buying that one instead of that one? What differences are there between the cheap and the expensive ones?

I'm sure you'll soon know more about what to look for, and whether an acoustic is indeed right for you, or whether you are better served by a DP.

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: oivavoi] #2849285 05/17/19 12:45 PM
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I mostly agree. I had a 50" upright. I could stand the sound of the smaller ones.
Originally Posted by oivavoi
But a height of 45 inches, or 114 centimers, just isn't enough. Size does matter. To really get the richness of sound that a good upright can offer, 120 cm is the minimum you should aim for. Get to 125 and die a happy man.
But I'd skip the latter part. The part about dying. smile

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: MacMacMac] #2849314 05/17/19 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I mostly agree. I had a 50" upright. I could stand the sound of the smaller ones.
Originally Posted by oivavoi
But a height of 45 inches, or 114 centimers, just isn't enough. Size does matter. To really get the richness of sound that a good upright can offer, 120 cm is the minimum you should aim for. Get to 125 and die a happy man.
But I'd skip the latter part. The part about dying. smile


Did you mean to say that you could not stand the sound of the smaller ones? Which smaller ones did you play?

Last edited by LarryK; 05/17/19 02:36 PM.

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Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2849346 05/17/19 03:57 PM
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I haven't read the entire thread, just the OP, so far. I love all things digital and keeping up with the latest and greatest. There are many very good reasons for going with a DP (or having one in addition to an acoustic). But (for me) a decent acoustic always wins out, if feasible for one's individual situation.


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Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2853712 05/29/19 09:16 PM
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Well getting an acoustic is a bit of a moot point right now. I can't even get a spinet or console into the room I was thinking of-too tight of a corner. So for now it will be trying some acoustics to compare to DP's for an upgrade from my PX-160. Maybe down the road at some point but not any time soon on the acoustic.

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2853774 05/30/19 03:22 AM
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For some background info, I've owned numerous acoustic pianos, including a nice Yamaha U3 which I sold and put 3/4 of the funds into a large, well loved 1928 Richard Lipp & Sohns (Stuttgart) Upright I bought from a piano tuner (amazing piano). I still have that piano, as well as a bargain-priced 1924 Richard Lipp & Sohns baby grand I stumbled across 5 years ago in dis-repair as a long term restoration project.

I've bought & sold numerous electric, electro/acoustic & digital pianos over the years, but never once regretted selling any of them to upgrade. I'd never sell my 2 acoustic pianos though - they are timeless.

Convenience, maintenance/tuning & sound level issues aside (headphones on a digital & practice pedal on an acoustic upright), the very best digitals still have a way to go to approach the life & soul of even a mid-range quality upright piano in my opinion. I played a 1920's era upright piano last weekend at a friends place (a smallish English made 'Danemann') and it was wonderful. You'd likely buy something like that here in Australia for $1500-$1800. Amazing depth of tone for a small upright, and it inspired my cousin to grab his guitar and sing some songs along with my piano playing. Couldn't image that happening with a digital piano.


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Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2853780 05/30/19 04:08 AM
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No digital will ever replace the vibrations you get from the soundboard through the keys of an acoustic. This simple technical phenomena is a BIG DEAL for me and it's still one of the main reasons that separate even a decent mid-range upright from a top of the line $3500 digital.

For me, it's not only about the "action" but it's about the living breathing instrument that drives every single nuance behind that action. As a composer, i thrive on that connection. I can't tell you how many times i sat on an acoustic and ended up laying "foundations" for a composition in a fraction of time compared to doing so on a digital with some of the very best vsts on the market.

If you can happily compromise (like many pianists do) knowing in advance that you will never get that connection with a digital, then go ahead and get one. In fact, unless you know the in-and-outs of mic-ing an acoustic AND you have a good sounding room, you will never achieve a recording quality with an acoustic like you do with a digital and vst libraries.

This is really a wide subject and only you can decide what you need based on your own goals (Practice only, recording, composing, etc...).

The choices are many and neither is "wrong", especially with the advanced technology we have nowdays with digitals when it comes to key action, paired with the crystal clear quality of vst piano libraries.

Last edited by RobR; 05/30/19 04:17 AM.
Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: RobR] #2853811 05/30/19 07:44 AM
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Great advice RobR!


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Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2853812 05/30/19 08:17 AM
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Quote
No digital will ever replace the vibrations you get from the soundboard through the keys of an acoustic.


Kawai Soundboard digitals disagree here.


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Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Tyr] #2853816 05/30/19 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyr
Quote
No digital will ever replace the vibrations you get from the soundboard through the keys of an acoustic.


Kawai Soundboard digitals disagree here.

And i strongly disagree based on my specific experience playing them. But again that's my personal experience and not yours or anyone else smile

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2853819 05/30/19 08:57 AM
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Good DP's are perfect for practice. Put headphones on or lower the volume to not disturb other family members while you "beat up the song" then walk over to your AP and play it for as long as "everyone" wants to listen to it.

There can be something said about what RobR has to offer. Currently, you will not get the same experience with a DP like you would an AP. But, the time is swiftly approaching when it will just feel like a different AP. I for one am looking forward to hearing the N1X binaural through headphones. If it had VRM (that works) with headphones it would maybe cross the line of realism.

But, there is also nothing wrong with playing on two different feeling pianos every day. It just strengthens your ability to walk up to any DP/AP and adjust to its action within the end of the first few measures.

Playing is good, procrastination is, well; bad!

(IMO)

Last edited by HwyStar; 05/30/19 08:58 AM.

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Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Tyr] #2853890 05/30/19 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyr
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No digital will ever replace the vibrations you get from the soundboard through the keys of an acoustic.


Kawai Soundboard digitals disagree here.

I walked by a Kawai in quite a busy store, and briefly touched it, couldn’t hear a thing! An acoustic would have been buzzing.

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: spanishbuddha] #2853903 05/30/19 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Originally Posted by Tyr
Quote
No digital will ever replace the vibrations you get from the soundboard through the keys of an acoustic.


Kawai Soundboard digitals disagree here.

I walked by a Kawai in quite a busy store, and briefly touched it, couldn’t hear a thing! An acoustic would have been buzzing.

And so this means... that you consider yourself part of the piano? laugh


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