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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2850346
05/20/19 10:32 AM
05/20/19 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by LarryK
The people on here probably aren’t aware that you and I have a mild case of the audiophilia sickness,

Well, in spirit of 12-step programs, my first step at treatment was putting my Apogee Duetta II's and Krell monoblocks into storage. LOL. It's literally impossible to spend as much on headphones as one can spend on amps and speakers, even if you go with STAX.... Well, that is, short of getting a Sennheiser Orpheus HE-1:



Toys for when I am retired. LOL.



You need to get that gear out of storage before all of the electrons leak out of everything and the components become useless.

Headphones are ok, but I cannot live with just headphones. That's just me. I can't share music with other people when all I have is a headphone rig, that's the worst part about headphones. As it is now, I hand people my iPad running the Roon app and they program a playlist. It's a lot of fun at parties. Just make sure nobody spills their drink into the amp! Actually, we don't throw parties, because of the risk of people doing something stupid around the rig, and we're not really party people. I heard about a guy whose housekeeper dusted his expensive phono cartridge. Goodbye cantilever. That's an argument for a big plexiglass turntable cover, which I have.

My amp seller, a brilliant electrical engineer, is suggesting that I put in a Niagara 5000 power conditioner unit:

https://www.audioquest.com/ac-power/ac-power-conditioners/niagara-5000

I'm trying to figure out if I would need one or two. I have two dedicated 20amp lines, one for the amp and one for the front end components. My amp cannot be limited in any way. My engineer friend is running one Niagara 5000 per mono block, and I assume one Niagara 5000 for the source components.

ConEd broke my heart and my amp with their transformer explosion, at least, that seems like the most likely explanation for why the power supply was killed. I'd like to prevent that from happening in the future. I might also be able to put a surge suppressor on the panel.

This engineer sent me his measurements for AC noise which he is measuring with an Entech powerline noise analyzer. He runs 4AWG electrical wire, haha. So, he's not operating purely by gut.


Last edited by LarryK; 05/20/19 10:35 AM.

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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Bruce In Philly] #2850352
05/20/19 10:52 AM
05/20/19 10:52 AM
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There's a cheaper form of protection: homeowner's insurance. smile

Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Bruce In Philly] #2850353
05/20/19 10:52 AM
05/20/19 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
I agree, which is why I have not installed a sub and will not. Bass energy is the most problematic to control because the waves are so long, of course.

If I want to listen to organ music, I’ll go to St. John the Divine in Manhattan and listen to their organ, which has over 8,000 pipes. There is nothing else like it and I know I’ll never come close to reproducing that sound.

With such a system, why compromise on the visceral lower frequencies? A small investment in subwoofers can make movies, jazz, orchestra, and organs a lot more fun.

It will take a few weeks of measurement and shuffling around, but sub integration is not rocket science. Harman's white paper indicates a swarm of subs is ideal but that is silly marketing. Two subs facilitate placement, address "enough" room issues, and can be run in stereo. One reasonable quality sub is a good compromise for normal people.

Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: newer player] #2850359
05/20/19 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by newer player
Originally Posted by LarryK
I agree, which is why I have not installed a sub and will not. Bass energy is the most problematic to control because the waves are so long, of course.

If I want to listen to organ music, I’ll go to St. John the Divine in Manhattan and listen to their organ, which has over 8,000 pipes. There is nothing else like it and I know I’ll never come close to reproducing that sound.

With such a system, why compromise on the visceral lower frequencies? A small investment in subwoofers can make movies, jazz, orchestra, and organs a lot more fun.

It will take a few weeks of measurement and shuffling around, but sub integration is not rocket science. Harman's white paper indicates a swarm of subs is ideal but that is silly marketing. Two subs facilitate placement, address "enough" room issues, and can be run in stereo. One reasonable quality sub is a good compromise for normal people.


Because I have neighbors and it costs money.

I looked into subs but I don’t have a good handle on how to integrate a sub with the Cantata and its Q controller. I also like the tight, fast bass you get from small drivers and I don’t want some flabby subwoofer. What do you consider a reasonable quality sub? It should be clear by now that I’m not normal, lol.



Last edited by LarryK; 05/20/19 11:06 AM.

Yamaha P-515, Pianoteq Standard 6
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Bruce In Philly] #2850363
05/20/19 11:08 AM
05/20/19 11:08 AM
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If I want bass I can just stay home and listen to the cars driving by, blasting there crap-musique with all the attendant window-rattling noise.

I have to put up with it when it's outside the house.
I would never want that inside my home.

Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: LarryK] #2850369
05/20/19 11:20 AM
05/20/19 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
I’m running this Class D amp while my behemoth is in the shop. Darn you ConEd.

https://wyred4sound.com/products/power-amps/stereo/st-mkii-series

It’s ok, but it does not compare to the Gryphon.

0.2% to 1% THD?
Yeah I can imagine that doesn't sound so good compared to the other one.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Granyala] #2850384
05/20/19 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by LarryK
I’m running this Class D amp while my behemoth is in the shop. Darn you ConEd.

https://wyred4sound.com/products/power-amps/stereo/st-mkii-series

It’s ok, but it does not compare to the Gryphon.

0.2% to 1% THD?
Yeah I can imagine that doesn't sound so good compared to the other one.


It doesn’t. It is a $1k stopgap amp that I bought used and is easy to ship.

So, back to impedance, yes, of course, impedance varies over frequency. I think it’s fair to say that my speakers are nominally 4ohm speakers. I’ve got plenty of drive at 4ohms, a little over 320watts, where the load is the heaviest, so I’m a happy guy. Better more power than too little power.


Yamaha P-515, Pianoteq Standard 6
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: LarryK] #2850387
05/20/19 12:01 PM
05/20/19 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
Better more power than too little power.

Definitely, because too little power = clipping = Lautsprecher kaputt. laugh


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: LarryK] #2850388
05/20/19 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
It should be clear by now that I’m not normal, lol.

My apologies LarryK as my poorly worded comment was in no way directed at you. My comment, however, addressed each and every one of us at the Digital Pianos forum.

Originally Posted by LarryK
What do you consider a reasonable quality sub?

hahaha. No idea. I suppose it needs to have some size and play relatively flat near 20Hz. As the home theatre hobby fades away, we see plenty of used subs available at firesale prices.

I have probably tried a dozen "cheapo" subs over the years and couldn't get any of them to integrate properly. But didn't try too hard.

A few years ago. I purchased a good quality big used sub from a neighbor. At first, it also sounded lousy. So I bit the bullet and spent the time to research placement, measure the room with a mic and free REW software, and do some testing. After a few weeks of work, I think it blends in nicely with the monitors and essentially the only EQ is via placement. The time spent was the key success factor not the equipment, I think.

One helpful trick we used in Jazz band for the bass was "feel but don't hear". So final sub adjustment was turning down the gain a lot so it disappeared. Integrates nicely and does not bother the neighbors. There is no thumpiness we associate with modded car stereo systems.

Subwoofers are nice because you can directly address room issues via independent placement. Those low frequencies also bring some of the room ambience for symphonies.

Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: LarryK] #2850400
05/20/19 12:26 PM
05/20/19 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK

I also like the tight, fast bass you get from small drivers and I don’t want some flabby subwoofer.


A real kick drum (that delivers a tight, fast, punchy sound) has a diameter 20+ inches or 50+cm. Japanese drum troop has much larger drums that deliver heart pounding sound.

I would think that a large diameter subwoofer driver has better chance of moving the air the same way than a small driver.

A very nice subwoofer (JBL 310s) costs 400 USD. A pair would set you back $800. It has it's own built in class D amp. You won't notice the "difference" at such low frequencies. They are designed to be daisy chained, so you put direct input into them, and the output is properly low pass filtered at 80Hz.

None of this stuff is magic.

Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: newer player] #2850410
05/20/19 12:35 PM
05/20/19 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
It should be clear by now that I’m not normal, lol.


Originally Posted by newer player

My apologies LarryK as my poorly worded comment was in no way directed at you. My comment, however, addressed each and every one of us at the Digital Pianos forum.


No offense taken, I was making a joke. Of course, I'm not normal compared to the people who solve their audio dilemmas with a cheap Bluetooth speaker. It takes all kinds.

Originally Posted by LarryK
What do you consider a reasonable quality sub?


Originally Posted by newer player

hahaha. No idea. I suppose it needs to have some size and play relatively flat near 20Hz. As the home theatre hobby fades away, we see plenty of used subs available at firesale prices.

I have probably tried a dozen "cheapo" subs over the years and couldn't get any of them to integrate properly. But didn't try too hard.

A few years ago. I purchased a good quality big used sub from a neighbor. At first, it also sounded lousy. So I bit the bullet and spent the time to research placement, measure the room with a mic and free REW software, and do some testing. After a few weeks of work, I think it blends in nicely with the monitors and essentially the only EQ is via placement. The time spent was the key success factor not the equipment, I think.

One helpful trick we used in Jazz band for the bass was "feel but don't hear". So final sub adjustment was turning down the gain a lot so it disappeared. Integrates nicely and does not bother the neighbors. There is no thumpiness we associate with modded car stereo systems.

Subwoofers are nice because you can directly address room issues via independent placement. Those low frequencies also bring some of the room ambience for symphonies.



Yeah, like I said, I started down the path of researching a solution but then my amp got blown up. After I get the amp back, I want to work on measuring and putting room correction into Roon, here is an article about that:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/a-guide-how-to-do-room-correction-and-use-it-in-roon/23800

They use REW to get the curves.

I'm not totally against the idea of a sub if it is done well, but that's the catch, though, doing it well, as you found out.

It looks like I'm going to have to spend some money to eliminate my electrical risk because I can't keep dragging my components to the service center all the time.

My amp seller may have an extra Niagara 5000 to sell because he is thinking about moving from one Niagara 5000 per component to using a Niagara 5000 as a Star point for power and ground. If he does that, I think I'll buy his used unit. This guy spent an hour on the phone with the designer of the Niagara 5000 and he went through the internals carefully. When you have as much expensive gear as he has, you don't take chances. My system pales in comparison, but, hey, I'm happy, or will be, as soon as I get my amp back, and can sleep at night without worrying that ConEd or an electrical storm is going to take out my system.

The repair center I'm using started repairing Gryphon gear because a lady in Florida got $300k worth of Gryphon gear fried in an electrical storm. Life is full of hardships. The repair center fixed it all.

Last edited by LarryK; 05/20/19 12:36 PM.

Yamaha P-515, Pianoteq Standard 6
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: redfish1901] #2850413
05/20/19 12:39 PM
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Nothing in sound reproduction is magic, just as nothing about a car is magic.

But in order to sell really over priced stuff, makers have to *create* the magic. The experience of riding in the back seat of a Bently is created mostly through perception.

Since our visual system is much more perceptive than our auditory system, over priced audio first and foremost must *look* good.

Since magic has to be created, anything that can be objectively measured must be argued away.

Since over priced subsystem X cannot be justified, magic pixie dust must be sprinkled liberally, and flowery literature must be written about it.

And when someone on the internet is wrong, they must be told so, otherwise my existence will become meaningless.

smile

Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Bruce In Philly] #2850415
05/20/19 12:43 PM
05/20/19 12:43 PM
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The only way consumer level gear gets 100% protection from mains is physically unplugging everything from the wall when not in use.

So you get full protection say the 22 of 24 hours per day you are not using the gear. Add a good protection scheme and you are largely covered the remaining 2 of 24 hours.

This only takes a few seconds but frankly is irritating.

Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: LarryK] #2850417
05/20/19 12:44 PM
05/20/19 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
It looks like I'm going to have to spend some money to eliminate my electrical risk because I can't keep dragging my components to the service center all the time.

Dumb question but what's up with your power?
Did Lightning hit and roast your amp or sth?


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: newer player] #2850418
05/20/19 12:49 PM
05/20/19 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by newer player
The only way consumer level gear gets 100% protection from mains is physically unplugging everything from the wall when not in use.

So you get full protection say the 22 of 24 hours per day you are not using the gear. Add a good protection scheme and you are largely covered the remaining 2 of 24 hours.

This only takes a few seconds but frankly is irritating.


It is irritating, and it's not something I'm going to do every day. I have other things to do, and I know I will go out the door, forget to unplug, and a thunderstorm will roll in. It happens quite frequently. We had a storm last night at 2am, and I got up and unplugged the gear. I would have rather been sleeping.

I think the Niagara 5000:

https://www.audioquest.com/ac-power/ac-power-conditioners/niagara-5000

can go a long way to reducing my risk of getting hit again.


Yamaha P-515, Pianoteq Standard 6
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: LarryK] #2850421
05/20/19 12:53 PM
05/20/19 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by newer player
The only way consumer level gear gets 100% protection from mains is physically unplugging everything from the wall when not in use.

So you get full protection say the 22 of 24 hours per day you are not using the gear. Add a good protection scheme and you are largely covered the remaining 2 of 24 hours.

This only takes a few seconds but frankly is irritating.


It is irritating, and it's not something I'm going to do every day. I have other things to do, and I know I will go out the door, forget to unplug, and a thunderstorm will roll in. It happens quite frequently. We had a storm last night at 2am, and I got up and unplugged the gear. I would have rather been sleeping.

I think the Niagara 5000:

https://www.audioquest.com/ac-power/ac-power-conditioners/niagara-5000

can go a long way to reducing my risk of getting hit again.


Why not generate your AC yourself? Have a bank of car batteries charged from your AC, the batteries feed a DC-AC converter, which goes to your sound system. If you want to go real fancy, Tesla powerwall is like $4000.

Now you can have very pure, isolated AC whenever you want.

Last edited by redfish1901; 05/20/19 12:56 PM.
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Granyala] #2850422
05/20/19 12:54 PM
05/20/19 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by LarryK
It looks like I'm going to have to spend some money to eliminate my electrical risk because I can't keep dragging my components to the service center all the time.

Dumb question but what's up with your power?
Did Lightning hit and roast your amp or sth?


I was at my mom's for Christmas. I rushed out the door and did not unplug the gear, stupid me.

ConEd had a massive transformer explosion in Queens, it lit up the sky blue. Some people thought it was an alien invasion, hahaha!



I got back after Christmas and the amp would not power on. I pressed the power button and the lights on top went out. It could have been an age related failure in the power supply or it could have been a surge. Nothing else was damaged.


Yamaha P-515, Pianoteq Standard 6
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: redfish1901] #2850423
05/20/19 12:57 PM
05/20/19 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by redfish1901
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by newer player
The only way consumer level gear gets 100% protection from mains is physically unplugging everything from the wall when not in use.

So you get full protection say the 22 of 24 hours per day you are not using the gear. Add a good protection scheme and you are largely covered the remaining 2 of 24 hours.

This only takes a few seconds but frankly is irritating.


It is irritating, and it's not something I'm going to do every day. I have other things to do, and I know I will go out the door, forget to unplug, and a thunderstorm will roll in. It happens quite frequently. We had a storm last night at 2am, and I got up and unplugged the gear. I would have rather been sleeping.

I think the Niagara 5000:

https://www.audioquest.com/ac-power/ac-power-conditioners/niagara-5000

can go a long way to reducing my risk of getting hit again.


Why not generate your AC yourself? Have a bank of car batteries hooked to your AC, the batteries feed a DC-AC converter, which goes to your sound system. If you want to go real fancy, Tesla powerwall is like $4000.

Now you can have very pure AC whenever you want.



Nope, the Tesla Powerwall is around $7-8k for one, at least it was a year ago. I got one installed in my mother's house. I try to be a good son. The Powerwall has covered about eleven short power outages in the past year, I can see a list in an app on my phone. The power switches over so quickly that you don't have to reset the clocks.

I didn't want any moving parts, as in a generator, and I didn't want propane tanks or other fuel tanks. The Tesla Powerwall, one of them, will give about two days of backup power, depending on how much you draw, of course. if you couple to with solar, you can go a lot longer, possibly indefinitely, but that's a lot more expensive.

I live in an apartment building in New York City. I am at the mercy of ConEd.

Last edited by LarryK; 05/20/19 01:02 PM.

Yamaha P-515, Pianoteq Standard 6
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Bruce In Philly] #2850426
05/20/19 01:00 PM
05/20/19 01:00 PM
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I just checked the price for Niagara 5000. They are $4000. The same as a Tesla Powerwall, which has 14kWH capacity.

I guess for ultimate protection, you can put the Niagara 5000 behind the Tesla Powerwall and get really really clean AC power.

Pretty nice for less than $10k.

Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: LarryK] #2850427
05/20/19 01:03 PM
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@LarryK

Not a generator. A DC-AC converter, which is what what the Powerwall does (convert DC Battery power to AC outlet power), except instead of Lithium Ion cells, you use car batteries. No moving parts. No noise. No fuel.

Last edited by redfish1901; 05/20/19 01:03 PM.
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