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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: LarryK] #2849738
05/18/19 07:29 PM
05/18/19 07:29 PM
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So you're effectively saying that you have more respect for some scammers than for others?
I guess you must have in mind a rating scale for scoundrels. smile
Originally Posted by LarryK
It’s easy to belittle things like this but I’ve got more respect for a speaker cable manufacturing company working hard to produce the finest speaker cable in the world than I do for some dude on eBay trying to sell an Epiphone acoustic signed by Paul McCartney for the same price:
Signed Paul McCartney guitar
But on second read ... you seem to think that those cables represent hard work.
That they're the finest cables in the world.
Wow.
Wow wow wow wow. frown

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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: MacMacMac] #2849742
05/18/19 07:56 PM
05/18/19 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
So you're effectively saying that you have more respect for some scammers than for others?
I guess you must have in mind a rating scale for scoundrels. smile
Originally Posted by LarryK
It’s easy to belittle things like this but I’ve got more respect for a speaker cable manufacturing company working hard to produce the finest speaker cable in the world than I do for some dude on eBay trying to sell an Epiphone acoustic signed by Paul McCartney for the same price:
Signed Paul McCartney guitar
But on second read ... you seem to think that those cables represent hard work.
That they're the finest cables in the world.
Wow.
Wow wow wow wow. frown



If you’re so knowledgeable about cables why don’t you open up your own manufacturing facility and show everybody else how it should be done. After all, according to you, those cables are easy to manufacture, so, start cranking them out of your basement.

If you can’t see that manufacturing a product has more utility than getting a signature on a guitar, that’s pretty sad, I have nothing more to say to you.



Last edited by LarryK; 05/18/19 08:03 PM.

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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Bruce In Philly] #2849745
05/18/19 08:10 PM
05/18/19 08:10 PM
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This thread has evolved into a perfect example of why the audiophile discussions are a never ending quagmire that I DON'T WANT here.

I trust blind tests and scientific studies about the limits of audibility for humans. Hence I believe that competently designed amps which are designed to sound neutral sound the same before clipping, that modern dacs are indistinguishable soundwise, that cables make no audible difference, and that the only thing worth thinking about is speakers and room acoustics. My own speakers cost roughly 20 times as much as the amps and the active crossover I use to drive them, and my room decorations have been placed with the help of acoustic measurements. But it stops there for me.

But... I really don't care that there are people who don't share these convictions, and who trust what they think they hear over what blind tests say. There are many many forums where those things can be debated. I've been there and grown tired of it. I come to this forum because I want to discuss piano specific issues.

Last edited by oivavoi; 05/18/19 08:20 PM.
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: LarryK] #2849752
05/18/19 08:57 PM
05/18/19 08:57 PM
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There's no need for me (or anyone) to make fancy cables.
Just get lamp cord from any of a number of sources and attach the requisite lugs or banana plugs as needed.
At $0.30 a foot (give or take) the wire is cheap.
And even top-notch banana plugs are just a few bucks for a set.
AND IT'S EVERY BIT AS GOOD AS THE $40,000 KIND.

Originally Posted by LarryK
If you’re so knowledgeable about cables why don’t you open up your own manufacturing facility and show everybody else how it should be done. After all, according to you, those cables are easy to manufacture, so, start cranking them out of your basement.
Being "so knowledgeable" is trivially easy. Wire is wire is wire.
The supercalifragilistic delta-wave infused harmonically-tuned crystalline jabberwocky that's spewed by these cable scammers has been torn to shreds by engineers for decades.
The purveyors of such deserve no respect. They're scammers.

Originally Posted by LarryK
If you can’t see that manufacturing a product has more utility than getting a signature on a guitar, that’s pretty sad, I have nothing more to say to you.
If you wish to defend a scammer and extol the virtues of his scammy manufacturing ... THAT'S what's pretty sad. frown

Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: oivavoi] #2849753
05/18/19 08:58 PM
05/18/19 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by oivavoi
This thread has evolved into a perfect example of why the audiophile discussions are a never ending quagmire that I DON'T WANT here.

I trust blind tests and scientific studies about the limits of audibility for humans. Hence I believe that competently designed amps which are designed to sound neutral sound the same before clipping, that modern dacs are indistinguishable soundwise, that cables make no audible difference, and that the only thing worth thinking about is speakers and room acoustics. My own speakers cost roughly 20 times as much as the amps and the active crossover I use to drive them, and my room decorations have been placed with the help of acoustic measurements. But it stops there for me.

But... I really don't care that there are people who don't share these convictions, and who trust what they think they hear over what blind tests say. There are many many forums where those things can be debated. I've been there and grown tired of it. I come to this forum because I want to discuss piano specific issues.

This is trivially solved for you oivavoi! Avoid any thread with a name like "Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound." In fact, avoid any thread with the word "Audiophile" in the title and you won't hurt your eyes.

You see how easy it is? In fact, it'll save you a click too! thumb


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"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Bruce In Philly] #2849755
05/18/19 09:08 PM
05/18/19 09:08 PM
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@oivavoi: I think your points are valid. There is such a thing as plenty good enough.
Yes, there's still cheap crap on the market. But great equipment abounds.
It's easy these days to reach the top without going broke.

Yes, the suspicious claims that a $10,000 amp sounds better than a $500 amp make me (and you?) boil.
But you'll likely never get your wish for this:
Quote
... the audiophile discussions are a never ending quagmire that I DON'T WANT here.
It's there ... and likely will always be.

Tyrone has a point. The heading "Audiophile Stuff! Turn away!" is a warning.
But it's a suspicious warning. When someone says "don't look" he must surely know that people will look.
So I don't think it's really a warning. It's click bait for someone's agenda.

Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: LarryK] #2849803
05/19/19 03:49 AM
05/19/19 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
I think it’s insane to spend over a $1k for headphones because music reproduction on headphones can never come close to music reproduction on a two channel system and there is nothing to discuss on that matter. Focal Nonsense. How much do you think the parts in your headphones cost, $100?

I would think so too, if life wouldn't force me into a situation where, as Tyrone already stated, headphones are all I got.

Ofc HPs can never give you the physical impact (a.k.a. bass notes in your gut/vibrating floor beneath your feet) as speakers. I'm painfully aware of that, thank you very much. ._.

How much the parts cost? Not much. I'd suspect that manual labor in an European country (France) as opposed to slave wages in china and R&D costs are the greatest contributors to the price of a fairly low volume item. Obviously Focal is in the business to make money, so there will be a heavy margin on top of that.

That goes for every premium/design product. Do you think that the components in a 5000€ amplifier are actually worth thousands?

You still miss the point though: there is scientific evidence that cables cannot make an audible difference. If there was evidence to the contrary, the insides of amps would look VERY differently and no manufacturer would dare to use el-cheapo circuit boards.
Personally, I trust science and mathematics over gut feelings every time.


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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Granyala] #2849866
05/19/19 08:00 AM
05/19/19 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by LarryK
I think it’s insane to spend over a $1k for headphones because music reproduction on headphones can never come close to music reproduction on a two channel system and there is nothing to discuss on that matter. Focal Nonsense. How much do you think the parts in your headphones cost, $100?

I would think so too, if life wouldn't force me into a situation where, as Tyrone already stated, headphones are all I got.

Ofc HPs can never give you the physical impact (a.k.a. bass notes in your gut/vibrating floor beneath your feet) as speakers. I'm painfully aware of that, thank you very much. ._.

How much the parts cost? Not much. I'd suspect that manual labor in an European country (France) as opposed to slave wages in china and R&D costs are the greatest contributors to the price of a fairly low volume item. Obviously Focal is in the business to make money, so there will be a heavy margin on top of that.

That goes for every premium/design product. Do you think that the components in a 5000€ amplifier are actually worth thousands?

You still miss the point though: there is scientific evidence that cables cannot make an audible difference. If there was evidence to the contrary, the insides of amps would look VERY differently and no manufacturer would dare to use el-cheapo circuit boards.
Personally, I trust science and mathematics over gut feelings every time.


Ok, here are some numbers for you. Here are the specs of my amplifier:

[img]https://imgur.com/a/FJwRP1r[/img]

Please identify a 5000 euro amplifier that meets these specifications.

There is a correlation between quality and price. To suggest otherwise is just foolish.

The cost of a product includes and is influenced by many things, including R&D, the costs of the parts and processes to produce them, the labor costs of the county where it was built, the volume of sales the manufacture hopes to achieve, the competitive products on the market, the performance of the product and how it specs out, and a profit margin to keep the company afloat in order to build more products.

I accept all of the above as the basis on which capitalism works.

Leaving aside the issue of the audible difference in cables, people build audio systems at all different price points that provide different levels of audio playback fidelity. It is easy to belittle these people but I don’t do that, I look at their systems as expressions of who they are, and I think it is amazing to see how a love of music can make people go to so much trouble to produce good sound. See the virtual systems at audiogon.com for many examples of what I’m talking about.


P.S. If I could only listen to headphones, I’d drop the money for the top of the line STAX. After all, by definition, you’re not spending the money to build a two channel system with speakers, so, why not?

Last edited by LarryK; 05/19/19 08:06 AM.

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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Bruce In Philly] #2849872
05/19/19 08:31 AM
05/19/19 08:31 AM
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Nobody would dispute that high investment in design and build quality, which is reflected in a higher price, has an effect on sound quality. Of course it does. And having a good quality sound system is a great pleasure. But

- digital electronics has eliminated a lot of the problems that used to bedevil us - record decks were particularly horrific
- there is a big diminishing return effect above a certain price
- your ears quickly adapt to suboptimal audio conditions
- musicians tend not to care much about audio quality. They care about music. A writer doesn't care much about the font.
- spending more than around 10 euros or dollars for a cable is usually going to be a waste of money unless there's a heavy duty requirement (eg live broadcasting etc)

If the material used made such a difference, as these cable manufacturers claim, then what about the use of poorly conducting solder used on circuit boards - even super expensive audiophile circuit boards as far as I know.


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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Bruce In Philly] #2849874
05/19/19 08:34 AM
05/19/19 08:34 AM
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^ Can’t add more to that!


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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: toddy] #2849878
05/19/19 08:57 AM
05/19/19 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
Nobody would dispute that high investment in design and build quality, which is reflected in a higher price, has an effect on sound quality. Of course it does. And having a good quality sound system is a great pleasure. But

- digital electronics has eliminated a lot of the problems that used to bedevil us - record decks were particularly horrific
- there is a big diminishing return effect above a certain price
- your ears quickly adapt to suboptimal audio conditions
- musicians tend not to care much about audio quality. They care about music. A writer doesn't care much about the font.
- spending more than around 10 euros or dollars for a cable is usually going to be a waste of money unless there's a heavy duty requirement (eg live broadcasting etc)

If the material used made such a difference, as these cable manufacturers claim, then what about the use of poorly conducting solder used on circuit boards - even super expensive audiophile circuit boards as far as I know.


I run a full digital front end with a MacMini streaming to a dedicated DAC, and with Roon + Tidal, I can find and stream tens of thousands of CDs. Yes, digital playback has eliminated a lot of the problems of analog playback and I love that part of it. I still run a turntable because not all vinyl records have been transferred to CD. Segovia’s The Intimate Guitar is one example.

Our ears adapt to suboptimal audio conditions but they delight in better audio conditions.

Hmm, what kind of musicians don’t care about sound quality? Classical? Rock? Pop? I don’t believe that musicians who have spent decades perfecting their sound don’t care if that sound is ruined on the recording. Poorly recorded CDs will not sell well. The word will get out and people will not buy them. Musicians probably don’t have much control over the sound although that is changing given the relatively low cost of high quality recoding equipment.

The cable argument does not negate the fact that the quality of the audio components used in a system influences the quality of sound produced by the system.



Last edited by LarryK; 05/19/19 08:59 AM.

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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: toddy] #2849879
05/19/19 08:57 AM
05/19/19 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
If the material used made such a difference, as these cable manufacturers claim, then what about the use of poorly conducting solder used on circuit boards - even super expensive audiophile circuit boards as far as I know.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
^ Can’t add more to that!

Actually, that isn't true. I don't want to get into a discussion of audiophile grade solder, but a number of high-end OEMs discovered and used it. I have a pair of monoblocks in storage which used audiophile grade solder almost 25 years ago. They weren't blind then. Technology was just further behind back then.


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Bruce In Philly] #2849892
05/19/19 09:21 AM
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Our ears are sensitive instruments. Humans evolved a sophisticated sense of hearing in order to detect threats. Our hearing is also used to orient our bodies in space. I read an article an about the world’s quietest room. People have trouble standing up in the room because they’re not hearing any sound, so, they give you a chair. Most people can’t stand it for more than fifteen minutes. With so little ambient sound, you start hearing the blood flowing through your own veins, a disconcerting sound, and one you never hear normally.

I play the classical guitar. I’ve heard dozens of classical guitars by different makers. I can hear minute differences in the tone of those different guitars. I was sitting in the front row of a masterclass and an advanced student got up and started to play. Within five notes, I thought, wait, I own a guitar by the same luthier! After the session, I asked the player who made his guitar and, I was right, I owned a guitar by the same maker.

Last edited by LarryK; 05/19/19 09:24 AM.

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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Bruce In Philly] #2849896
05/19/19 09:26 AM
05/19/19 09:26 AM
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Recognizing guitars is a timbral recognition skill. But it doesn’t have anything to do with purely musical abilities such as perfect or relative pitch, chord recognition, etc. The same way it has almost nothing to do with frequency response related stuff which the audio reproducing equipment is all about and in particular the audiophile one.


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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: LarryK] #2849908
05/19/19 09:56 AM
05/19/19 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
l run a full digital front end with a MacMini streaming to a dedicated DAC, and with Roon + Tidal, I can find and stream tens of thousands of CDs. Yes, digital playback has eliminated a lot of the problems of analog playback and I love that part of it. I still run a turntable because not all vinyl records have been transferred to CD. Segovia’s The Intimate Guitar is one example.

Our ears adapt to suboptimal audio conditions but they delight in better audio conditions.

Hmm, what kind of musicians don’t care about sound quality? Classical? Rock? Pop? I don’t believe that musicians who have spent decades perfecting their sound don’t care if that sound is ruined on the recording. Poorly recorded CDs will not sell well. The word will get out and people will not buy them. Musicians probably don’t have much control over the sound although that is changing given the relatively low cost of high quality recoding equipment.


It seems we are mostly in agreement. I did say hi-fi sound is a great pleasure at the outset. And it is not surprising that audiophile grade solder exists (I also did say 'circuit boards use [the same poor conducting] solder as far as I know. ) Whether this high grade solder actually makes a difference to the sound is another matter

About musicians not caring much about audio quality - of course I'm talking in relative terms: obviously they will care about how their music is recorded, mixed and mastered. That goes without saying. But in my experience (admittedly this is just anecdotal) mucicians (classical, jazz and rock) don't generally invest a lot of time and effort on audiophile setups. Musicians who are also sound engineers care more about hi-fi, true, but I've never met one who's an audiophile as such.

Originally Posted by LarryK
The cable argument does not negate the fact that the quality of the audio components used in a system influences the quality of sound produced by the system.

Yes, absolutely true. Nobody here has said otherwise as far as I know. In fact I expressly stated:
Originally Posted by toddy
Nobody would dispute that high investment in design and build quality, which is reflected in a higher price, has an effect on sound quality. Of course it does. And having a good quality sound system is a great pleasure.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: CyberGene] #2849917
05/19/19 10:14 AM
05/19/19 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Recognizing guitars is a timbral recognition skill. But it doesn’t have anything to do with purely musical abilities such as perfect or relative pitch, chord recognition, etc. The same way it has almost nothing to do with frequency response related stuff which the audio reproducing equipment is all about and in particular the audiophile one.


Yes, true, but timbral recognition is a product of having sensitive hearing.

One can work on improving the recognition of relative pitch through ear training exercises. The notion that people are tone deaf is, for the most part, nonsense, because just about everyone can recognize the sound of their own mother’s voice.

Last edited by LarryK; 05/19/19 10:15 AM.

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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: toddy] #2849919
05/19/19 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by LarryK
l run a full digital front end with a MacMini streaming to a dedicated DAC, and with Roon + Tidal, I can find and stream tens of thousands of CDs. Yes, digital playback has eliminated a lot of the problems of analog playback and I love that part of it. I still run a turntable because not all vinyl records have been transferred to CD. Segovia’s The Intimate Guitar is one example.

Our ears adapt to suboptimal audio conditions but they delight in better audio conditions.

Hmm, what kind of musicians don’t care about sound quality? Classical? Rock? Pop? I don’t believe that musicians who have spent decades perfecting their sound don’t care if that sound is ruined on the recording. Poorly recorded CDs will not sell well. The word will get out and people will not buy them. Musicians probably don’t have much control over the sound although that is changing given the relatively low cost of high quality recoding equipment.


It seems we are mostly in agreement. I did say hi-fi sound is a great pleasure at the outset. And it is not surprising that audiophile grade solder exists (I also did say 'circuit boards use [the same poor conducting] solder as far as I know. ) Whether this high grade solder actually makes a difference to the sound is another matter

About musicians not caring much about audio quality - of course I'm talking in relative terms: obviously they will care about how their music is recorded, mixed and mastered. That goes without saying. But in my experience (admittedly this is just anecdotal) mucicians (classical, jazz and rock) don't generally invest a lot of time and effort on audiophile setups. Musicians who are also sound engineers care more about hi-fi, true, but I've never met one who's an audiophile as such.

Originally Posted by LarryK
The cable argument does not negate the fact that the quality of the audio components used in a system influences the quality of sound produced by the system.

Yes, absolutely true. Nobody here has said otherwise as far as I know. In fact I expressly stated:
Originally Posted by toddy
Nobody would dispute that high investment in design and build quality, which is reflected in a higher price, has an effect on sound quality. Of course it does. And having a good quality sound system is a great pleasure.




Actually, I remember reading how Andrea Bocelli was raving about the sound of a high quality speaker, and he’s blind. I suppose the cynical argument would be that he’s being paid to say nice things but somehow I think he cares enough about sound to not do that. If he hawks inferior sounding products, he’ll be called out on it.

People on this thread are make outrageous claims that 500 dollar/euro amps are as good as 10,000dollar/euro amps and that has not been my experience at all, and I’ve owned both.


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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: LarryK] #2849933
05/19/19 10:57 AM
05/19/19 10:57 AM
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toddy Offline
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Originally Posted by LarryK
people on this thread are make outrageous claims that 500 dollar/euro amps are as good as 10,000dollar/euro amps and that has not been my experience at all, and I’ve owned both.


They may be different but I would not be honest if I didn't say that a 500 dollar amp would be more than good enough for me. I would spend any extra money on speakers and room treatment.


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Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: toddy] #2849936
05/19/19 11:02 AM
05/19/19 11:02 AM
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LarryK Online content
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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by LarryK
people on this thread are make outrageous claims that 500 dollar/euro amps are as good as 10,000dollar/euro amps and that has not been my experience at all, and I’ve owned both.


They may be different but I would not be honest if I didn't say that a 500 dollar amp would be more than good enough for me. I would spend any extra money on speakers and room treatment.


Speakers and amps are the two biggest parts of the equation. I had already owned a high quality pair of speakers bought years before. Everybody gets to decide what price level makes sense for them, but to argue that people who spend more gain no additional benefits, in terms of sound quality, is mean spirited and not true.

Last edited by LarryK; 05/19/19 11:04 AM.

Yamaha U1 Silent Piano
Re: Audiophile Stuff! Turn away! Specs and sound. [Re: Bruce In Philly] #2849940
05/19/19 11:06 AM
05/19/19 11:06 AM
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Are you sure you can distinguish between a €500 amp and €10000 amp in a blind test? smile

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/19/19 11:06 AM.

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