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Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: KevinM] #2847557
05/12/19 01:38 PM
05/12/19 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
My recording from today. I'm pleased with it while also recognising there are still significant issues. My nemesis is still defeating me which is the support is way too loud.
You are correct in your comment about the non-melody notes. I think you should think of only two parts the...the melody and everything else. Don't worry about three voices which I really thought from the beginning is over thinking the piece. You are correct in what you should be prioritizing to improve your playing of this piece.

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Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: KevinM] #2847842
05/13/19 05:16 PM
05/13/19 05:16 PM
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Santa Fe, NM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
My recording from today. I'm pleased with it while also recognising there are still significant issues. My nemesis is still defeating me which is the support is way too loud. Most of my super slow practise is towards quietening the support. My rits are too mechanical, I'm not feeling them so I am playing them as directed but I am not fitting them into the rhythm of the piece and as a result they are lacking. A few ghost notes and I need better regulation. I don't need to play it any faster than I did for this recording, so everything from here on in is about polish.

I feel like I am being my teacher to myself. Complementing me, but then highlighting where I can do better. But right now I'm feeling happy.

Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen



Very nice, Kevin! I hear this piece at a faster tempo, but that's only a preference.

Just a couple of suggestions. The melody shifts to the bass for the first 4 measures of the B section. Maybe you could bring it out just a bit more, and then slow it down in the 4th measure (marked ritard.) Then the melody moves back to the soprano and briefly, slightly picks up pace but almost immdeiately goes into the 2 measure ritardando, meaning it should really slow down so one can fully appreciate the tension of the suspension on the fermata-held B in the right hand and G in the left hand, letting the listener feel ever so slightly impatient before moving forward a tempo. At least that's how I hear it in my head!


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Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: AaronSF] #2847846
05/13/19 05:32 PM
05/13/19 05:32 PM
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Sheffield, UK
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KevinM Offline OP
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Originally Posted by AaronSF
Originally Posted by KevinM
My recording from today. I'm pleased with it while also recognising there are still significant issues. My nemesis is still defeating me which is the support is way too loud. Most of my super slow practise is towards quietening the support. My rits are too mechanical, I'm not feeling them so I am playing them as directed but I am not fitting them into the rhythm of the piece and as a result they are lacking. A few ghost notes and I need better regulation. I don't need to play it any faster than I did for this recording, so everything from here on in is about polish.

I feel like I am being my teacher to myself. Complementing me, but then highlighting where I can do better. But right now I'm feeling happy.

Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen



Very nice, Kevin! I hear this piece at a faster tempo, but that's only a preference.

Just a couple of suggestions. The melody shifts to the bass for the first 4 measures of the B section. Maybe you could bring it out just a bit more, and then slow it down in the 4th measure (marked ritard.) Then the melody moves back to the soprano and briefly, slightly picks up pace but almost immdeiately goes into the 2 measure ritardando, meaning it should really slow down so one can fully appreciate the tension of the suspension on the fermata-held B in the right hand and G in the left hand, letting the listener feel ever so slightly impatient before moving forward a tempo. At least that's how I hear it in my head!


I agree completely with those suggestions. My playing is still flakey enough that still too much concentrating is needed to get the notes right and details get left out. Improving the rits is a big part of that and the melody in the bass.

It could also be a bit faster, but I feel now I can play it fast enough that my focus is now solidly on the dynamics.


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
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Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: KevinM] #2848404
05/15/19 08:45 AM
05/15/19 08:45 AM
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Both too slow for me. I prefer my own version smile
my attempt

The piece has the form AABABA. There are two counterpoint voices, and a middle voice that does triplet arpeggios. In my interpretation, the A part is a happy reminder of the composer's youth. The B part is a somewhat nostalgic look back at that time from the current moment in time.

Last edited by wouter79; 05/15/19 08:47 AM.

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Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: KevinM] #2848496
05/15/19 03:17 PM
05/15/19 03:17 PM
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Santa Fe, NM
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KevinM:
Quote
I prefer this Argerich "Von Fremden..." which is beautiful and to me captures the piece pretty much perfectly, and significantly better than the concert encore recordings. How I wish I had a little of her talent.


Yes, me, too! I've seen Argerich live only twice. The economy of movement is amazing. She is able to elicit such color with minimal body movement. I heard her doing 2-piano with Nelson Freire. He was fairly dramatic with his body and arms; she hardly moved and produced more tone!


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Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: KevinM] #2848582
05/15/19 09:50 PM
05/15/19 09:50 PM
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Feedback from my teacher is that I need to put "more meat on the melody."


Learner
Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: AaronSF] #2848589
05/15/19 10:23 PM
05/15/19 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AaronSF
KevinM:
Quote
I prefer this Argerich "Von Fremden..." which is beautiful and to me captures the piece pretty much perfectly, and significantly better than the concert encore recordings. How I wish I had a little of her talent.


Yes, me, too! I've seen Argerich live only twice. The economy of movement is amazing. She is able to elicit such color with minimal body movement. I heard her doing 2-piano with Nelson Freire. He was fairly dramatic with his body and arms; she hardly moved and produced more tone!
Only twice. Sigh. I'd settle for once. smile


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In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams
Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: malkin] #2848629
05/16/19 02:42 AM
05/16/19 02:42 AM
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Sheffield, UK
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Originally Posted by malkin
Feedback from my teacher is that I need to put "more meat on the melody."


I did not get those words, but the meaning was the same.


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
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Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: Stubbie] #2848638
05/16/19 04:01 AM
05/16/19 04:01 AM
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Italy
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Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by AaronSF
KevinM:
I've seen Argerich live only twice. The economy of movement is amazing. She is able to elicit such color with minimal body movement. I heard her doing 2-piano with Nelson Freire. He was fairly dramatic with his body and arms; she hardly moved and produced more tone!

Only twice. Sigh. I'd settle for once. smile


Ahem... I've heard her live 18 times, and in 5 of these concerts she played Von Fremden Landern as an encore... blush

It's a wonder how often I still mess this piece up, especially when I try to change something in interpretation and expression grin


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Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: sinophilia] #2848751
05/16/19 11:13 AM
05/16/19 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by sinophilia
Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by AaronSF
KevinM:
I've seen Argerich live only twice. The economy of movement is amazing. She is able to elicit such color with minimal body movement. I heard her doing 2-piano with Nelson Freire. He was fairly dramatic with his body and arms; she hardly moved and produced more tone!

Only twice. Sigh. I'd settle for once. smile


Ahem... I've heard her live 18 times, and in 5 of these concerts she played Von Fremden Landern as an encore... blush
Oh my.


[Linked Image]
In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams
Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: Stubbie] #2848773
05/16/19 11:46 AM
05/16/19 11:46 AM
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Sheffield, UK
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KevinM Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by sinophilia
Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by AaronSF
KevinM:
I've seen Argerich live only twice. The economy of movement is amazing. She is able to elicit such color with minimal body movement. I heard her doing 2-piano with Nelson Freire. He was fairly dramatic with his body and arms; she hardly moved and produced more tone!

Only twice. Sigh. I'd settle for once. smile


Ahem... I've heard her live 18 times, and in 5 of these concerts she played Von Fremden Landern as an encore... blush
Oh my.


+1


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
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Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: AaronSF] #2848892
05/16/19 03:38 PM
05/16/19 03:38 PM
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Greenport, New York
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I think the Horowitz recording quality is not as good. Not sure which one I prefer. Both are outstanding. I guess I have to keep woking not this piece


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Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: KevinM] #2848921
05/16/19 04:52 PM
05/16/19 04:52 PM
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I notice there is a recent blog post by Shirley Kirsten on Von Fremden Landern und Menschen.

Voice parceling in Kinderscenen Op. 15 no. 1 ......


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In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams
Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: Stubbie] #2848931
05/16/19 05:42 PM
05/16/19 05:42 PM
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Sheffield, UK
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Originally Posted by Stubbie
I notice there is a recent blog post by Shirley Kirsten on Von Fremden Landern und Menschen.

Voice parceling in Kinderscenen Op. 15 no. 1 ......


That is really interesting. Thanks Stubbie.


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
DP: Kawai MP11SE. HP: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: KevinM] #2851999
05/25/19 07:07 AM
05/25/19 07:07 AM
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Sheffield, UK
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Hello from frustrated in Sheffield.

I'm now playing it slower, a consequence of slow practise focussing on bringing out the melody. I can't let it get any slower and if anything I should speed it up a bit again, it is starting to sound pedestrian. Unfortunately though I think the slow practise has improved my playing a little the accompaniment is still too loud. I am finding this skill of giving different emphasis to the different voices almost impossibly difficult.

I am trying to play with my left hand fingers as far as possible from the fall-board in the hope that I can improve my regulation of the accompaniment. I'm getting close to blaming my tools with my inability to get this skill.

Not only is it about playing some notes louder than others, but it plays around with timing. Louder notes are played with a faster velocity, meaning you have to start playing the slower notes earlier so that you hit the point where the sound is made at the same time.

This mornings recording


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
DP: Kawai MP11SE. HP: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: KevinM] #2852024
05/25/19 08:41 AM
05/25/19 08:41 AM
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If I may, I'll share my opinion on this recording:
- I think you're getting a surprisingly good tone out of a digital piano!
- the first section sounds pretty good, maybe a bit too 'straight' in terms of (lack of) rubato. The accompaniment could be played softer, as you mentioned, but I don't feel it is overshadowing the melody here, as the melody is still very clear.
- the second section is solid in terms of timing. But, it is very unclear. I personally feel that the left hand is singing the melody here, and as such, it should be much more prominent (it is actually quite similar to what the RH is doing in the first section). Some performers let the RH take the spot light in the second section - which is also fine in my opinion, because it is so beautiful. But in your recording, both RH and LH in the second section felt subdued.

All in all - a decent rendition.

Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: KevinM] #2852025
05/25/19 08:43 AM
05/25/19 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
Hello from frustrated in Sheffield.

I'm now playing it slower, a consequence of slow practise focussing on bringing out the melody. I can't let it get any slower and if anything I should speed it up a bit again, it is starting to sound pedestrian. Unfortunately though I think the slow practise has improved my playing a little the accompaniment is still too loud. I am finding this skill of giving different emphasis to the different voices almost impossibly difficult.

I am trying to play with my left hand fingers as far as possible from the fall-board in the hope that I can improve my regulation of the accompaniment. I'm getting close to blaming my tools with my inability to get this skill.

Not only is it about playing some notes louder than others, but it plays around with timing. Louder notes are played with a faster velocity, meaning you have to start playing the slower notes earlier so that you hit the point where the sound is made at the same time.

This mornings recording



I think you are too hard with yourself. It is holding together quite well. It is difficult to evaluate the relative weight of left and right hand in the recording as it is not pro quality so it may sound completely different in the room. The relative unequality of notes is clear but also I think you are hitting the melody notes too hard trying probably to overcome the left hand weight. My sense is that you should first work out the right hand melodic line to get it even and more flowing/natural (adding some rubato) and the left hand to become completely automatic so you do not have to worry about it when you play. You'll get it up to speed after that; there is no point going faster until you fully master both hands. Good luck.

Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: wouter79] #2852041
05/25/19 09:52 AM
05/25/19 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by wouter79

In my interpretation, the A part is a happy reminder of the composer's youth. The B part is a somewhat nostalgic look back at that time from the current moment in time.


Nice.
For me the A part is having a lovely stroll in a new city on vacation. The B part is where I've suddenly noticed that I've strayed into a sketchy part of town, the sun is setting, and I have no idea how to get back to the hotel.


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Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: KevinM] #2852054
05/25/19 10:23 AM
05/25/19 10:23 AM
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New York City
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Originally Posted by KevinM
Hello from frustrated in Sheffield.

I'm now playing it slower, a consequence of slow practise focussing on bringing out the melody. I can't let it get any slower and if anything I should speed it up a bit again, it is starting to sound pedestrian. Unfortunately though I think the slow practise has improved my playing a little the accompaniment is still too loud. I am finding this skill of giving different emphasis to the different voices almost impossibly difficult.

I am trying to play with my left hand fingers as far as possible from the fall-board in the hope that I can improve my regulation of the accompaniment. I'm getting close to blaming my tools with my inability to get this skill.

Not only is it about playing some notes louder than others, but it plays around with timing. Louder notes are played with a faster velocity, meaning you have to start playing the slower notes earlier so that you hit the point where the sound is made at the same time.

This mornings recording
Your playing especially in the A part is quite good. Perhaps a little more emphasis on the RH vs. the LH would be better but it's basically OK. I wouldn't worry about having more rubato in the A section which most pros play basically straight although that's a personal choice. The B section is somewhat less good because it's not so clear which voices you want to bring out and when. I think the main melody is still in the RH but the LH can be played louder than in the A part because it also has a melody.

Also, I wouldn't think about the timing issue you mentioned in your last paragraph. Although what you say is theoretically true I don't think pianists consciously think about this when playing and the timing difference in terms of when to start or how long it takes to depress the key is so small that it just become automatic.

Re: Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen [Re: pianoloverus] #2852174
05/25/19 05:05 PM
05/25/19 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Your playing especially in the A part is quite good. Perhaps a little more emphasis on the RH vs. the LH would be better but it's basically OK. I wouldn't worry about having more rubato in the A section which most pros play basically straight although that's a personal choice. The B section is somewhat less good because it's not so clear which voices you want to bring out and when. I think the main melody is still in the RH but the LH can be played louder than in the A part because it also has a melody.


At my current skill level after focussing little else during practise on this piece for the last couple of weeks, I have as much emphasis as my skill will give to the right hand melody over the left.

I think this is what frustrates me the most, just how hard it is to learn this skill of playing each melody line with its own expression. If I want to play the pieces I want to learn getting this skill right is essential. I suspect very much now that I never learnt this skill when I learnt as a child. I am certain that I could play well at speed as a child and that is a skill I need to relearn. But this I suspect is new to me.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus

Also, I wouldn't think about the timing issue you mentioned in your last paragraph. Although what you say is theoretically true I don't think pianists consciously think about this when playing and the timing difference in terms of when to start or how long it takes to depress the key is so small that it just become automatic.


This has just been one of the frustrations. The music sounds discordant if there are tiny separations between when the two different sounds start. I suspect with further practise it will go.


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
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