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Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? #2848474
05/15/19 02:00 PM
05/15/19 02:00 PM
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Murmansk, Russia
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PianoStartsAt33 Online content OP
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Wim says that somewhere in the middle of 19th century the interpretations of tempo indications went astray. He gives nice proofs. What do you think of all of this?



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Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2848475
05/15/19 02:05 PM
05/15/19 02:05 PM
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I guess you weren't there for this party last year: grin

oy :-)

Answer: Sure, some people play too fast, especially amateurs (like me) who try to play faster than they can, just because they think it has to go that fast.

But that guy is (pardon the expression) a nut, and he's not right about anything.
Including that his math isn't even right. ha

Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2848488
05/15/19 02:50 PM
05/15/19 02:50 PM
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I've no idea if he his right or wrong. I do know that some of the tempo indications in Schumanns Kinderszenen are hard to believe. I don't know of anyone playing Traumerei at 100 or strange lands at 108. I'm not sure I accept the idea that metronomes were unreliable or broken. Clocks of the period were pretty accurate and of course Harrison of lontitude fame was making some seriously complex examples 70 or 80 years earlier. In comparison the metronome was a relatively simple affair.

Last edited by Michael P Walsh; 05/15/19 02:52 PM.
Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2848528
05/15/19 05:56 PM
05/15/19 05:56 PM
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I think it’s hilarious and he needs to work harder at getting his playing up to speed.


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2848535
05/15/19 06:15 PM
05/15/19 06:15 PM
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Posts: 405
Murmansk, Russia
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So, has anyone watched his last video I posted? He says that the final argument is found, the source from 1860 that should end all the discussions. It's very interesting what professionals think about this "source"...


"No succes of failure matters when it's about true vocation". Nicolás Gómez Dávila
“The goal of music is to help people live”. Francis Bebey

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Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2848557
05/15/19 07:50 PM
05/15/19 07:50 PM
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. That man is a crackpot.

He also shadow bans people on his youtube channel if they disagree with his outlandish claims.

Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: boo1234] #2848566
05/15/19 08:29 PM
05/15/19 08:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
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In the Ozarks of Missouri
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Originally Posted by boo1234
I've said it before and I'll say it again. That man is a crackpot.

He also shadow bans people on his youtube channel if they disagree with his outlandish claims.


+1 The guy is looney!


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Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2848571
05/15/19 08:51 PM
05/15/19 08:51 PM
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Ohio
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Oh gosh, it won't go away! tired laugh

Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2848574
05/15/19 09:01 PM
05/15/19 09:01 PM
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Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2848575
05/15/19 09:02 PM
05/15/19 09:02 PM
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New York
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Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
So, has anyone watched his last video I posted?

From what we know of him from before, it seems to be safe to say that he's not worth another second.

Unless he's changed his brain or something.....

Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2848615
05/16/19 01:03 AM
05/16/19 01:03 AM
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So was Glenn Gould wrong when he played stuff too slowly? 😆

(I like Wim, but figure if I'm yelling at anybody to play faster, then something is wrong. 🤔😆)


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Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2848682
05/16/19 08:14 AM
05/16/19 08:14 AM
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WIm Winters has one merit: unlike many with eccentric musicological theories, he does at least practice what he preaches and has uploaded plenty of examples of his theories in action.

He is also clearly a reasonably competent and trained keyboardist.

After that, I'm struggling, I have to admit! The performances he uploads are frankly awful: he has a view of music and musical gesture that I find anaemic, to put it mildly. This being his latest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md41nD87W84

I can't think of anything polite to say about this performance, it is a strangely sanitised view of music and watching him play reminds me of films of Pride and Prejudice, where the least talented daughter flops all over the piano in the unlikely hope it will snare her a husband.

I'm not averse to eccentric tempos, by any means. One of my favourite recordings is Richter taking 26 minutes to play the first movement of Schuberts D894 which is totally wrong in terms of what the composer intended but Richter somehow is able to create and maintain a pulse that I find hypnotic. The same is true with some of Gould's performances. But Winters just isn't inspired enough to get away with something so manifestly wrong.

As others have noted, he can be remarkably arrogant and refuses to debate properly. Sadly, he has 19 300 followers!

Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: Hatchestron] #2848695
05/16/19 08:49 AM
05/16/19 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Hatchestron
WIm Winters has one merit: unlike many with eccentric musicological theories, he does at least practice what he preaches and has uploaded plenty of examples of his theories in action.

He is also clearly a reasonably competent and trained keyboardist.

After that, I'm struggling, I have to admit! The performances he uploads are frankly awful: he has a view of music and musical gesture that I find anaemic, to put it mildly. This being his latest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md41nD87W84

I can't think of anything polite to say about this performance, it is a strangely sanitised view of music and watching him play reminds me of films of Pride and Prejudice, where the least talented daughter flops all over the piano in the unlikely hope it will snare her a husband.

I'm not averse to eccentric tempos, by any means. One of my favourite recordings is Richter taking 26 minutes to play the first movement of Schuberts D894 which is totally wrong in terms of what the composer intended but Richter somehow is able to create and maintain a pulse that I find hypnotic. The same is true with some of Gould's performances. But Winters just isn't inspired enough to get away with something so manifestly wrong.

As others have noted, he can be remarkably arrogant and refuses to debate properly. Sadly, he has 19 300 followers!


Haha, Beethoven opus 2 no 1? I'll watch that. The difference, in my opinion, is that great musicians experiment with tempo for musical reasons first, foremost (and only). In the case of Wim Winters you can't help feeling that he's at least partly compensating for pianistic inadequacies, if not his own then certainly among his thousands of followers. Just because you can't comfortably play a work at the composer's recommended speed doesn't mean it isn't still the optimum speed from the composer's point of view.


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: ShyPianist] #2848697
05/16/19 08:55 AM
05/16/19 08:55 AM
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Posts: 4,882
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Just because you can't comfortably play a work at the composer's recommended speed doesn't mean it isn't still the optimum speed from the composer's point of view.

Except that this is not Wim. He is arguing that the incredibly slow tempo is indeed the composer's tempo. Wim disgusts me in a similar way that historical revisionists and Holocaust deniers disgust me, and he argues in exactly the same way - if you see any so-called "academic" Youtube videos of revisionists and deniers, you'll see that's true. (Sorry to have such an extreme point of view on this "man." frown )


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
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Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2848700
05/16/19 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Just because you can't comfortably play a work at the composer's recommended speed doesn't mean it isn't still the optimum speed from the composer's point of view.

Except that this is not Wim. He is arguing that the incredibly slow tempo is indeed the composer's tempo. Wim disgusts me in a similar way that historical revisionists and Holocaust deniers disgust me, and he argues in exactly the same way - if you see any so-called "academic" Youtube videos of revisionists and deniers, you'll see that's true. (Sorry to have such an extreme point of view on this "man." frown )


It kind of is though? It's just he's invented a handy historical "proof" to justify his own (and others') inadequacies lol. Has he turned his attention to Liszt and Ravel yet? Did they have faulty metronomes too? ;-)


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2848710
05/16/19 09:36 AM
05/16/19 09:36 AM
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New York City
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I certainly am not convinced by his arguments for slow tempos. OTOH I think quite a few of the comments on this thread are over the top nasty. Having outlier ideas about tempo dies not harm anyone so why such mean spirited comments?

Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: pianoloverus] #2848714
05/16/19 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I certainly am not convinced by his arguments for slow tempos. OTOH I think quite a few of the comments on this thread are over the top nasty. Having outlier ideas about tempo dies not harm anyone so why such mean spirited comments?


My comments are slightly tongue in cheek pianoloverus, sorry if not clear. It kind of does do harm though, because is it not lulling some people into a false sense of security in respect of their own playing?


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2848718
05/16/19 09:50 AM
05/16/19 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Just because you can't comfortably play a work at the composer's recommended speed doesn't mean it isn't still the optimum speed from the composer's point of view.

Except that this is not Wim. He is arguing that the incredibly slow tempo is indeed the composer's tempo. Wim disgusts me in a similar way that historical revisionists and Holocaust deniers disgust me, and he argues in exactly the same way - if you see any so-called "academic" Youtube videos of revisionists and deniers, you'll see that's true. (Sorry to have such an extreme point of view on this "man." frown )


Please no not associate historical revisionism only with the grazy youtube stuff. It's also a healthy and necessary part of scientific process when looking into written history.

Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: ShyPianist] #2848727
05/16/19 10:07 AM
05/16/19 10:07 AM
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Michael P Walsh Online content
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Just because you can't comfortably play a work at the composer's recommended speed doesn't mean it isn't still the optimum speed from the composer's point of view.

Except that this is not Wim. He is arguing that the incredibly slow tempo is indeed the composer's tempo. Wim disgusts me in a similar way that historical revisionists and Holocaust deniers disgust me, and he argues in exactly the same way - if you see any so-called "academic" Youtube videos of revisionists and deniers, you'll see that's true. (Sorry to have such an extreme point of view on this "man." frown )


It kind of is though? It's just he's invented a handy historical "proof" to justify his own (and others') inadequacies lol. Has he turned his attention to Liszt and Ravel yet? Did they have faulty metronomes too? ;-)


He's invented nothing. The idea of double beat has been around long before Wim started banging on about it on U-tube. After all some of the metronome markings given by composers in the 19th century are clearly suspect. In fact they are ignored by many modern pianists. Double beat is an attempt to explain some of the odd tempo markings. I'm yet to be convinced but it doesn't upset me that someone is trying to find an answer. I suspect that many people take exception to his belief that he is irrefutably correct in this. I think he would have been served better by taking a much more relaxed and less partisan attitude towards the whole thing.

Re: Wim Winters and his AuthenticSound: do we play too fast? [Re: outo] #2848753
05/16/19 11:16 AM
05/16/19 11:16 AM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Except that this is not Wim. He is arguing that the incredibly slow tempo is indeed the composer's tempo. Wim disgusts me in a similar way that historical revisionists and Holocaust deniers disgust me, and he argues in exactly the same way - if you see any so-called "academic" Youtube videos of revisionists and deniers, you'll see that's true. (Sorry to have such an extreme point of view on this "man." frown )
Please no not associate historical revisionism only with the grazy youtube stuff. It's also a healthy and necessary part of scientific process when looking into written history.

I hereby retract my comparison with Holocaust denial. Was wrong to compare against something so serious. But how is what Wim is doing not historical revisionism? He is changing the both the factual and interpretive basis of events that happened over a hundred years ago. That is historical revisionism.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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