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Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? #2847910
05/13/19 08:59 PM
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Arcflash Offline OP
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I was wondering what might be a better way to go for about the same money for an upgrade in the future. I currently have a Casio PX-160. It is fine right now but I would like to upgrade in the future. My two choices right now on the digital side would be the Yamaha P-515 or the Kawai ES-8. My other option for around this price point would be a used (1992) Yamaha P22. From what I have read the P22 is a very popular piano for schools and a pretty decent piano in general. There are some issues with the space required for an acoustic as well as my wife not really being on board with that but from a sound and playability perspective what do you think is the money better spent on? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated especially from those who maybe own either of these DP's and have played on pianos like the P22 as a comparison.

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Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2847918
05/13/19 09:53 PM
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I got my start on a (digital) Kawai CN34. I really liked it, and happily chugged my way through Fur Elise, some pieces from the Anna Magdalena Bach notebook, and so on.

I spent five months out of state for work, and decided to rent an acoustic piano while I was there. I ended up with a 40-year-old Yamaha U3.

The old U3 had a few disadvantages. There was something a little bit funny about the action, occasionally I would press a key and the note wouldn't sound. Moreover, the bottom ten or so notes sounded the same -- pushing any of their keys resulted in a dull, loud, metallic thud.

And, yet, it was flesh and blood. I loved it. I learned Bach Invention #1 on that thing, time very well spent. Fond memories.

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2847949
05/14/19 12:38 AM
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Arcflash,

Good acoustic and even mediocre is always better than digital, but good digital is better than crappy acoustic. I do not know how P22 sounds, but Yamaha (in general) makes bright and aggressive uprights, and, believe me, I have doubts whether you will peace and joy with cheap bright upright. Better would be to find something German made or USA made.nwith P22 you pay also for thing you don't need at home, so it's quite basic pianos, and basic acoustic are horrid.

If you can stretch a bit, than upgrading to Kawai CA78 makes much more sense. Add also Roland FP90, as it has better action than Kawai, sound is personal thing.

@Impendia,
Silent touch is a trained skill, and unless piano action was faulty, this is normal and even desired thing in a piano

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2848213
05/14/19 10:07 PM
05/14/19 10:07 PM
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Arcflash Offline OP
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That is my main question- For the cost of a pretty decent DP can you get an equal or better acoustic? Maybe, probably not? I know I like the sound of my PX-160 better than my teachers Acrosonic and the PX-160 is not very expensive. I don't like the bright setting on the PX-160 at all-very annoying. The Yamaha P22 was redesigned around 2008 to tame the brightness but the one I was looking at was made in 1992. There are a bunch of free or very cheap uprights but I think a lot of these would take an expensive amount of work to be playable.

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Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2848232
05/14/19 11:28 PM
05/14/19 11:28 PM
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It's hard to answer your question. Perhaps you could clarify "the cost of a pretty decent DP".
Originally Posted by Arcflash
That is my main question- For the cost of a pretty decent DP can you get an equal or better acoustic? Maybe, probably not? I know I like the sound of my PX-160 better than my teachers Acrosonic and the PX-160 is not very expensive. I don't like the bright setting on the PX-160 at all-very annoying. The Yamaha P22 was redesigned around 2008 to tame the brightness but the one I was looking at was made in 1992. There are a bunch of free or very cheap uprights but I think a lot of these would take an expensive amount of work to be playable.
For me a "pretty decent digital" would run at least $4000. You can get a very good used full-size upright for that money, perhaps a 50" Yamaha or Kawai upright.

But that's just me. You seem to leaning toward the Acrosonic or Yamaha P22 as the acoustic reference pianos. Those are much less expensive.
The last time I looked you could get a new P22 for that much money ... but that was 20 years ago ... not sure of today's prices.

My opinion of a "really good digital" would run $8000 to $10000, and for that money (or a little more) you can get a very good brand-new upright.

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2848282
05/15/19 03:14 AM
05/15/19 03:14 AM
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Groove On Online content
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If you have the available space, owning a digital piano and a decent acoustic is a very satisfying setup. I’ve never felt the need to upgrade my Roland FP30 because I own a Kawai K500 acoustic. Best of both worlds, without breaking the bank.

But, if you have only room for one piano/keyboard ... it’s a more challenging decision.


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Groove On] #2848293
05/15/19 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Groove On
If you have the available space, owning a digital piano and a decent acoustic is a very satisfying setup. I’ve never felt the need to upgrade my Roland FP30 because I own a Kawai K500 acoustic. Best of both worlds, without breaking the bank.

But, if you have only room for one piano/keyboard ... it’s a more challenging decision.


I came to the same conclusion, that owning a digital piano and a good acoustic upright piano makes the most sense and can be the cheapest way to go. Combining both in one instrument can be significantly more expensive and, in some ways, I would rather not couple the digital technology with the analog technology in one piano.

I have decided not to upgrade the digital side anymore, my P-515 is good enough, and to look to the future when I can buy a high quality acoustic upright. I’m going to try to wait five years. This assumes that I can convince my wife that this is the most sensible approach. Most people can probably find the room for both if I can do it in a one bedroom apartment in Manhattan. :-)


Last edited by LarryK; 05/15/19 04:33 AM.

Yamaha P-515, Pianoteq Standard 6
Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2848300
05/15/19 04:58 AM
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I think at almost any price point you can get better value from a second hand Acoustic than you can from a new DP - but of course making sure that a second acoustic is a good instrument is not always easy if you are not an expert.

In fact at the higher end you can argue that a new Acoustic is better value than a new DP.

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: percy64] #2848302
05/15/19 05:18 AM
05/15/19 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by percy64
I think at almost any price point you can get better value from a second hand Acoustic than you can from a new DP.

On the other hand, shouldn't a piano be tuned at least once a year? So at the lower price point the new DP will give much better value than a second hand Acoustic - after a couple of years the tuning will have cost you more than the new DP.


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: percy64] #2848304
05/15/19 05:24 AM
05/15/19 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by percy64
I think at almost any price point you can get better value from a second hand Acoustic than you can from a new DP - but of course making sure that a second acoustic is a good instrument is not always easy if you are not an expert.

In fact at the higher end you can argue that a new Acoustic is better value than a new DP.

There is just so much wrong with this. LOL. I better not touch it. wink


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Animisha] #2848354
05/15/19 06:12 AM
05/15/19 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by percy64
I think at almost any price point you can get better value from a second hand Acoustic than you can from a new DP.

On the other hand, shouldn't a piano be tuned at least once a year? So at the lower price point the new DP will give much better value than a second hand Acoustic - after a couple of years the tuning will have cost you more than the new DP.

Ah but that wasn't the question was it smile

An acoustic piano will tend to hold its value much better than a DP which would probably more than make up for the cost of tuning it

But really the choice Acoustic or Digital is not one about price but many other factors.

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2848367
05/15/19 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

There is just so much wrong with this. LOL. I better not touch it. wink

Just suppose you were in the market for a new piano - how would you compare say an N1X against a GB1K or a Clavinova CLP685 against a B2?

Do you actually prefer the N1X to the GB1K or was it other factors that made you go for the digital not the acoustic?

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: percy64] #2848375
05/15/19 06:20 AM
05/15/19 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by percy64
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

There is just so much wrong with this. LOL. I better not touch it. wink

Just suppose you were in the market for a new piano - how would you compare say an N1X against a GB1K or a Clavinova CLP685 against a B2?

Do you actually prefer the N1X to the GB1K or was it other factors that made you go for the digital not the acoustic?


I tested some new acoustic uprights for comparison when choosing my digital. I prefer the digital any day of the week. All acoustic pianos are not equal. Many are better than an excellent digital, many are considerably worse.


“If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) - stolen from Kreisler
Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: ShyPianist] #2848463
05/15/19 12:35 PM
05/15/19 12:35 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by percy64
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

There is just so much wrong with this. LOL. I better not touch it. wink

Just suppose you were in the market for a new piano - how would you compare say an N1X against a GB1K or a Clavinova CLP685 against a B2?

Do you actually prefer the N1X to the GB1K or was it other factors that made you go for the digital not the acoustic?

I think one of the important factors is while I've attended a lot of classical concerts with pianos and been in piano bars, I've never really been up close and personal with a piano. It's like watching a movie with beautiful people vs being up close to them and finding that they pass wind like every else.

An example from yesterday should suffice. I was testing the NV10 and decided to try the Kawai GL30 grand first to get a baseline. I sat down. Played a piece I have been learn in my piano lessons which is p and heavily pedal throughout. Wait. What is that loud noise? Every time I press the pedal it makes that noise! It's louder than my playing! The salesman walks over. I tell him, this piano might be broken. It's wooshing every time I press the pedal. Of course he pointed out that acoustic pianos are supposed to woosh.

What the heck? I'm sorry, we live in 2019, not 1819 and this piano was made in a shop in Japan either this year or last year and not by Bartolomeo Cristofori 250 years ago. Making rude noises, like f@rting, is not a feature. And why do DPs like the NV10 try to simulate these misfeatures?

I could go on and on (like why are people sticking with that one-hump shape after all this time? What musicality reason is there for that weird hump?) I'm no fan of acoustical pianos having not grown up with them.

That said, I love the sound of the Fazioli! It is so lush! I will simply have to forgive it its Quasimodo-like hump if I ever have the space and soundproofness permitting it.

Originally Posted by ShyPianist
I tested some new acoustic uprights for comparison when choosing my digital. I prefer the digital any day of the week. All acoustic pianos are not equal. Many are better than an excellent digital, many are considerably worse.

Couldn't agree more.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: ShyPianist] #2848473
05/15/19 01:52 PM
05/15/19 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by percy64
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

There is just so much wrong with this. LOL. I better not touch it. wink

Just suppose you were in the market for a new piano - how would you compare say an N1X against a GB1K or a Clavinova CLP685 against a B2?

Do you actually prefer the N1X to the GB1K or was it other factors that made you go for the digital not the acoustic?


I tested some new acoustic uprights for comparison when choosing my digital. I prefer the digital any day of the week. All acoustic pianos are not equal. Many are better than an excellent digital, many are considerably worse.


After I heard an old Russian piano in a video posted on here, I saw my keyboard with new eyes.

I want both analog and digital, but I don’t want an awful analog piano.

Last edited by LarryK; 05/15/19 01:54 PM.

Yamaha P-515, Pianoteq Standard 6
Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2848514
05/15/19 04:46 PM
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It all depends on the condition, tone and price of the second hand upright. Usually, cheap second hand uprights are not the top of the line uprights. Thus, a mid-level to high end digital piano would be a better option.

Yamaha pianos are bright in general and the P22 would have a brighter tone as its sound board is laminated. Also if the piano is played a lot and had warn hammer heads, it would be even brighter. If you are happy with the tone and touch, then go for it.

The digital pianos you mentioned are of the high end pianos, they have 256 polyphony, so you will have good sustain and you have many things to control. Also the triple sensor would allow you to play repeated notes faster as the keyboard simulates the action of a grand piano rather than an upright piano.

The Kawai ES8 is an excellent option I played one for couple of years and I can tell you it is better than the Yamaha P515. However, if you are not going to use the piano for gigs, then you should have a look on Kawai CA series.

With these digital pianos you have the option to change the sound of piano and many other parameters technician would need a few hours to apply to any real piano for FREE!

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2848572
05/15/19 08:58 PM
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Arcflash Offline OP
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In response to MacMacMac- $4,000 for a pretty decent DP would be way beyond my budget right now. Per my beginning post I was referencing the P515 and Kawai ES-8 because those seem to come up a lot as very good DP's at least for portables and would be a big step up from my PX-160. I will readily admit my ignorance of all things piano related at this point since I have only been playing about 5 months. But it seems like for what I could get a P515 or ES-8 or similar DP for ($1,300-$1700) an acoustic in this range would not be a better way to go.

Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2848617
05/16/19 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Arcflash
But it seems like for what I could get a P515 or ES-8 or similar DP for ($1,300-$1700) an acoustic in this range would not be a better way to go.

I agree, under US$3,000 a digital piano from one of the major brands is a solid option. Even with expert guidance, a used acoustic piano in that price range can be a crap shoot.

Personally, I don’t mind the shortcomings of the under US$3,000 digital pianos, they are very good for the price. It’s probably because when I’ve shopped for an acoustic, I am generally only happy with acoustic pianos above US$10,000.


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Arcflash] #2848622
05/16/19 01:54 AM
05/16/19 01:54 AM
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For me it's kinda like burgers and steak. Under US$15 there are lots of good burgers out there, but if a burger costs US$20 - why not just head over to Peter Luger or Wolfgang and gets some really good steak! After all, under US$15 steaks can't be all that great, and a US$20++ burger is still freakin' a burger.


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Re: Thoughts on DP vs. used Acoustic? [Re: Groove On] #2848625
05/16/19 02:00 AM
05/16/19 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Groove On
For me it's kinda like burgers and steak. Under US$15 there are lots of good burgers out there, but if a burger costs US$20 - why not just head over to Peter Luger or Wolfgang and gets some really good steak! After all, under US$15 steaks can't be all that great, and a US$20++ burger is still freakin' a burger.

What steak can you get at Peter Luger's for $20? I was last there in the 90's, and I don't recall being about to get a steak there for $40 back then. Haha...


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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