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Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847263
05/11/19 03:23 AM
05/11/19 03:23 AM
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That may have come out wrong, but I must admit that I was a bit surprised. If suggestions are made for conducting group discussions, I see this different from teaching a student an activity such as piano playing in a private one-on-one setting. I was surprised, if I understood it right, if that were seen as the same.

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Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: keystring] #2847290
05/11/19 07:01 AM
05/11/19 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
That may have come out wrong, but I must admit that I was a bit surprised. If suggestions are made for conducting group discussions, I see this different from teaching a student an activity such as piano playing in a private one-on-one setting. I was surprised, if I understood it right, if that were seen as the same.


Excellent analysis keystring (on your long post-by post-response and here.)

One of my objections to long posts is that they tend to become a lecture rather than a conversation. I'm here for conversation - if I want a lecture there's always Coursera. Thank you for showing that it's possible with long posts, provided time and patience exist. It appears to me that his response to each of your points was simply "no you're wrong."

I see a distinct difference between a one-to-one interaction teaching a six year old a physical skill, whether it's piano or soccer, and a classroom setting focused on intellectual concepts. It seems to me that LiWs exposition and his quotes from that text have little application to the former.

There are some points that seem valid to me that might be within the original post, and others I would disagree with. I've hesitated to address them because for one, it didn't seem a conversation, and for another, his writing style makes me unsure whether he really said it.

So I'll go on to attempt to summarize, knowing this may have little to do with what his post really said.

1. A teacher should never be abusive; the old style of a demanding and harsh teacher as exemplified in the movie is not what we should do today, though it did produce some virtuoso players.

I think we'd all agree with that.

2. A teacher should always start where the student is and build from there. (Norm Bolter of Boston Symphony fame in his lectures often said "start with what they CAN do.")

I think we would not all agree with that. Many students in any physical skill have developed such bad habits the only way forward is to start all over from scratch. They need to be "smashed." Others may have some sound fundamentals and are able to be tweaked/shaped into better performance.

3. A teacher should adapt his communication style to the student's, and the way to do this is by analysis of student types according to a formal intellectual schema.

I think we would agree there is some merit to being attentive to the student's style of communicating. I do not see the value in these overly complicated systems with a young beginner learning a physical skill. Staying focused "in real time" and realizing when a student is understanding is not improved by that; in fact it is a distraction. If you insist on that type of intellectual analysis, the way to do it is to video your teaching session and review it later, using the results to improve how you communicate. (Just using less words is likely to be the first result of that!) Actually it would be extremely useful if LiW would provide a video of one of his lessons, demonstrating what he means.

4. A teacher should adapt his teaching style to the learning style of the student. Students are broadly divided (on a continuum) from goal oriented inner tennis intuitive types to mechanics oriented analytical intellectual types, and so are teachers. Some skills are better learned one way or the other; some students are flexible and others hardwired into a style.

I don't think we would have general agreement on this point and it may not exist within the OP's lecture. It probably applies less to piano than many other musical or athletic skills, at least a beginner level. For me personally it has been important, both as a student and when teaching.

Last edited by TimR; 05/11/19 07:02 AM.

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Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: keystring] #2847305
05/11/19 08:41 AM
05/11/19 08:41 AM
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Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by keystring
Perhaps one of the piano teachers here can explain the difference between leading a high school discussion, and teaching piano playing to a young child, and why there might be a difference. I won't say I haven't succeeded in doing so because I didn't try, as it seemed a given, but I might have been wrong.

I already responded how it is bound together but it seems you have missed that and not responded to it. Let me paste it for you:

"A teacher teaching one on one lessons is a part of a large classroom but the students are isolated. So teachers are actually a part of a large classroom of many students even though the students are segregated thus there is a strong connection between the classroom setting and one on one lessons from the teachers perspective."

I also gave more examples how things you thought were exclusively for a multi student classroom setting could be used in a one on one lesson but you didn't respond to them.

Originally Posted by keystring

Quote
Keystring I have responded to a number of your questions in this thread already and got no response back...

I haven't as a rule asked questions, though there might have been one or two here there. For those with responses, if comprehensible, I probably did respond. But generally I wrote statements and ideas. They were not questions. My last post did not consist of questions. In a discussion forum, it is usually a matter of exchange of ideas.

They were questions in the manner that they opposed some ideas that I wrote and criticised their purpose or use, I responded with elaborations and got no more response from you. Instead I got a new wave of postulations which are critiquing what was written which I again have responded to but it seems like there is no response again. So I am wondering if you just want to oppose ideas (put them to question) with your thoughts and leave it as that.

You also wrote a few clear questions here:

"In this thread there is a student whose entire playing was dismantled completely, who could then not apply to college, and who spend several decades not playing. Are there no thoughts about this? Should "defective" (real or imagined) playing be dismantled like that? Are there alternatives? Have people experienced variations and choices in this?"

I pointed out that I responded to this poster and a couple of times now and answered a number of issues but there has been no further response from you after asking questions about this.

Not that it really matters really but I am just wondering if you want to pose question to what is written and not continue the disucssion after I have elaborated just so I know what you want from these kind of discussions.

Originally Posted by keystring
That may have come out wrong, but I must admit that I was a bit surprised.

Surprisd about what exactly?

Originally Posted by keystring
If suggestions are made for conducting group discussions, I see this different from teaching a student an activity such as piano playing in a private one-on-one setting. I was surprised, if I understood it right, if that were seen as the same.

Suggestions I made were intended for one on one lessons and I emphasised that further after you suggested that they were meant for multi student classroom settings exclusively.



Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/11/19 08:42 AM.

"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: TimR] #2847306
05/11/19 08:45 AM
05/11/19 08:45 AM
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Posts: 184
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Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by TimR
Originally Posted by keystring
That may have come out wrong, but I must admit that I was a bit surprised. If suggestions are made for conducting group discussions, I see this different from teaching a student an activity such as piano playing in a private one-on-one setting. I was surprised, if I understood it right, if that were seen as the same.


Excellent analysis keystring (on your long post-by post-response and here.)

One of my objections to long posts is that they tend to become a lecture rather than a conversation. I'm here for conversation - if I want a lecture there's always Coursera. Thank you for showing that it's possible with long posts, provided time and patience exist. It appears to me that his response to each of your points was simply "no you're wrong."

I see a distinct difference between a one-to-one interaction teaching a six year old a physical skill, whether it's piano or soccer, and a classroom setting focused on intellectual concepts. It seems to me that LiWs exposition and his quotes from that text have little application to the former.

There are some points that seem valid to me that might be within the original post, and others I would disagree with. I've hesitated to address them because for one, it didn't seem a conversation, and for another, his writing style makes me unsure whether he really said it.

So I'll go on to attempt to summarize, knowing this may have little to do with what his post really said.

1. A teacher should never be abusive; the old style of a demanding and harsh teacher as exemplified in the movie is not what we should do today, though it did produce some virtuoso players.

I think we'd all agree with that.

2. A teacher should always start where the student is and build from there. (Norm Bolter of Boston Symphony fame in his lectures often said "start with what they CAN do.")

I think we would not all agree with that. Many students in any physical skill have developed such bad habits the only way forward is to start all over from scratch. They need to be "smashed." Others may have some sound fundamentals and are able to be tweaked/shaped into better performance.

3. A teacher should adapt his communication style to the student's, and the way to do this is by analysis of student types according to a formal intellectual schema.

I think we would agree there is some merit to being attentive to the student's style of communicating. I do not see the value in these overly complicated systems with a young beginner learning a physical skill. Staying focused "in real time" and realizing when a student is understanding is not improved by that; in fact it is a distraction. If you insist on that type of intellectual analysis, the way to do it is to video your teaching session and review it later, using the results to improve how you communicate. (Just using less words is likely to be the first result of that!) Actually it would be extremely useful if LiW would provide a video of one of his lessons, demonstrating what he means.

4. A teacher should adapt his teaching style to the learning style of the student. Students are broadly divided (on a continuum) from goal oriented inner tennis intuitive types to mechanics oriented analytical intellectual types, and so are teachers. Some skills are better learned one way or the other; some students are flexible and others hardwired into a style.

I don't think we would have general agreement on this point and it may not exist within the OP's lecture. It probably applies less to piano than many other musical or athletic skills, at least a beginner level. For me personally it has been important, both as a student and when teaching.

The body of keystrings reply to me was that the much of what I wrote was meant more for a multi student classroom than a one on one lesson which is why I defined why it can be used for one on one lessons, it is not me saying YOU ARE WRONG as you are trying to make it look out to be.

Do you notice TimR that it is so easy to write out lists but then look at your comments on those lists, for instance the one from number 3 is like 4 times longer than the summarized point and still could dig deeper to support your stance and explain the "why" not just the "what". So just writing a list is useless because it doesn't define anything at all in a comprehensive manner, thus why I write a lot to answer questions and dig deeper into the issue. Just writing a summary without defining generalized terms doesn't provide much food for thought, certainly not on the deeper issues which are of more interest for teachers who know the basics quite well already. We want the deeper meanings. Sure some may be satisfied with small answers and not interested in the rabbit hole of knowledge that leads from that, thats fine, but we should allow freedom for those who want to go as deep as they like.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/11/19 08:53 AM.

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Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847316
05/11/19 10:26 AM
05/11/19 10:26 AM
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I took the time to examine the points as they occurred in the source, and also the context in which those points were made. I doubt that anyone else bothered to do so - mostly because of a probable disinterested, and that due to an early alienation. When considering advice from any outside source, one should know more about this advice. If you study a book, and you have knowledge of your own field, you will understand it as a whole and know how you want to apply it. If otoh a group of strangers is given a list,and they don't have any context, it is harder for this to happen. So I did the research, which was also for my own sake. From the start it felt off, because it felt like something designed for group and academic instruction. It turned out to be so. For the group, for all of us, the context is important to know.

The one list was generated from aims to foster better group discussions among high school students, created by a researcher.

This is important to know. It is not some trivial side fact such as "the writer has blue eyes". If a teacher of private music lessons is considering these points and knows their original context, he'll have to say "Ok, this is for something totally different. But can I adapt some of these ideas? Which can still apply to my own teaching scenario, and which don't?" "Which of these things are too far removed from my reality?" The fact that the list was designed by a researcher for the purpose of facilitating group discussions among teens needs to be known.

I was exasperated when this seemed glossed over, seemingly trivialized as not mattering at all. I asked the other teachers for help in maybe explaining the point. Yes, I read the comment about the sameness of classroom and private teaching. That is what elicited that short post of mine. I wanted someone else to explain how fostering high school group discussions is different from teaching music to a young individual in a private lesson. I addressed this to the other members, for their views.

-------
One impression that is crystalizing is that maybe this is not being conducted like a group discussion ---- this being where there is an exchange of ideas among participants, new ideas being welcome and entertained, the flow of conversation being multi-directional. I'm picturing another model at this moment. A lecture by an expert professor. He has the knowledge to impart to the students in the lecture hall. Anything coming from them should be questions for clarification on his points, but his actual points are what he is teaching, and they stand firm. The students do not have ideas to contribute; they have the status of student. If I, and all of us, took on the roles of students in a lecture by an expert with knowledge that we are expected to absorb, I have a feeling that this thread would then run smoothly as intended. I don't know if I'm right, but that's a picture that has popped up. Everyone here seems to be groping with the message in each of those posts so maybe it's ok to grope.

Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847320
05/11/19 10:43 AM
05/11/19 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
The body of keystrings reply to me was that the much of what I wrote was meant more for a multi student classroom than a one on one lesson .............


No, a main point in my post to the group was to be sure to know the nature of the original list, so that we know what we're examining. It is also not what you wrote, but what the author wrote. The author is a researcher who was proposing ways to improve group discussions in a high school settings. We need to know that in order to get any kind of perspective on that list.

For anyone in the group that is important information when considering these things.

When considering anything that a person proposes, one must know something about where those ideas are coming from, the context; the individual's background has a bearing - and then we can have a proper picture of the idea. THEN you decided whether and how you might adapt those ideas, after understanding them.

If someone has tried to solve a problem, and is proposing solutions, if you're solving the same problem and you're a novice, if the person and his ideas seem trustworthy, you may adopt the ideas "as is". If as a novice you come across someone's solutions, where that person is solving a different problem in a different context, then adopting his ideas "as is" will be wrong. (If experienced, you'll know it's wrong, and you also have the facility to adapt vs. adopt). Knowing the background of solutions someone has found is a crucial thing to do - especially when picking up things on the Internet.

That was the reasoning in my post.

Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847331
05/11/19 11:14 AM
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On this one, which was highlighted later and pointed out to me:
Originally Posted by LostinIdleWonder
Of course it applies to one on one lessons as well, could you explain how there is a total separation between the two in this instance? A teacher teaching one on one lessons is a part of a large classroom but the students are isolated. So teachers are actually a part of a large classroom of many students even though the students are segregated thus there is a strong connection between the classroom setting and one on one lessons from the teachers perspective.


This came directly after my intro, where summarized what I found about the contexts of the two separately quoted sources. It was a context to be kept in mind for exploring each of the points that followed. A thing gets defined in the intro., so that there is clarity as the body of the posts unfolds. It's a rather classical format.

I will not explain about "total separation" because I did not postulate anything about "separation". I postulated absolutely nothing. I simply brought out the facts, so that we know what we're dealing with. The first of the two I explored was a set of suggestions put forth by a researcher as to how to foster group discussions in high schools. The considerations of the context were then kept in mind via the various posts.

I also asked you whether you taught one-on-one, in the classroom, or both. Knowing this would facilitate exploring the broader ideas.

At present, I can't quite engage in what you quoted and want me to respond to. I actually find it rather vague and thus difficult to understand. This:
Quote
... So teachers are actually a part of a large classroom of many students even though the students are segregated thus there is a strong connection between the classroom setting and one on one lessons from the teachers perspective.

is sort of swimming around; the words make sense grammatically, the connection between the two sentences is there, but from a teaching perspective I'm lost, as it is too vague.

I have taught one-on-one, as well as teaching in the classroom for which I received professional training, internship and the rest, and have also been a private music student. Some things off the top of my head:

- In a classroom setting, while we were advised to mingle and interact one-on-one "as much as possible" with every student every day (that is in fact close to an impossibility with 30+ young students), mostly we found ourselves addressing a group. If I work one-on-one with a student, I can see comprehension in the student's eyes, actions, body language, and it is rather immediate. "Assessment" is continual and on the spot. In the classroom, tests and homework are a major means of assessing. It is more distant, less interpersonal. One-on-one, I can adjust what I'm teaching on the spot, based on what I'm seeing as we interact. My assignments and plans for next week may alter due to this interaction. In the classroom, there is a master lesson plan for the group as a whole, usually in "modules" broken into a series of lesson plans. A good teacher will try to build flexibility into the teaching plans, but it is still limited compared to what I've written about the private lesson. If government interferes through external policies such as testing and such, the teacher's ability to teach responsively may become even more limited in public institutions.

The two scenarios will have different challenges, and be different in a lot of ways. Someone dealing with the scenario of fostering group discussions among adolescents, or dealing with classroom teaching, will be addressing challenges unique to those scenarios. However, there will also be things one can adapt directly or indirectly from those solutions or observations. With that I agree. I would want to sort this factor out, however. And so I did.

Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: keystring] #2847333
05/11/19 11:17 AM
05/11/19 11:17 AM
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Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
The body of keystrings reply to me was that the much of what I wrote was meant more for a multi student classroom than a one on one lesson .............


No, a main point in my post to the group was to be sure to know the nature of the original list, so that we know what we're examining. It is also not what you wrote, but what the author wrote.

I elaborated upon them so I did write about them especially when you suggested they were only for group lessons and was not sure how it applied to one on one students, I also mentioned the source so I didn't suggest that I WROTE IT ALL.

Originally Posted by keystring

The author is a researcher who was proposing ways to improve group discussions in a high school settings. We need to know that in order to get any kind of perspective on that list.

That is not relevant to what we are writing about though to apply it to our single students, unless teachers here are teaching classrooms, but importantly I wanted to relate it to how we deal with our one on one students. You seem to think that because the source studied with multiplle student classrooms that it must be difficult or there must be some inability to apply it to one on one students which I have not see you support yourself on this ideology.

Originally Posted by keystring

When considering anything that a person proposes, one must know something about where those ideas are coming from, the context; the individual's background has a bearing - and then we can have a proper picture of the idea. THEN you decided whether and how you might adapt those ideas, after understanding them.

Which is fine that is what we are doing, we are elaborating how it is useful for one on one lessons, the fact that it was created with classroom teachers in mind does not orphan its useage for private piano lesson lesson which involve predominantly one on one students.

Originally Posted by keystring

If someone has tried to solve a problem, and is proposing solutions, if you're solving the same problem and you're a novice, if the person and his ideas seem trustworthy, you may adopt the ideas "as is". If as a novice you come across someone's solutions, where that person is solving a different problem in a different context, then adopting his ideas "as is" will be wrong. (If experienced, you'll know it's wrong, and you also have the facility to adapt vs. adopt). Knowing the background of solutions someone has found is a crucial thing to do - especially when picking up things on the Internet.

That was the reasoning in my post.

So explain how knowing the background is helpful? You merely pose question that because this was meant for classrooms that it cant possbilty be as important for one on one lessons, just look at your responses which criticise it. So what is your real point in bringing this up as a matter for discussion? How is expressing your inability to find how some of them apply to one on one lessons (even though I gave examples how they would apply which you still have not adressed) and saying we must look at the source and look that it was written for classroom situations, how is that helpful? Can you describe how it assists one on one lessons if you are trying to make it apply only to classroom situations?


"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: keystring] #2847335
05/11/19 11:27 AM
05/11/19 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
So I did the research, which was also for my own sake. From the start it felt off, because it felt like something designed for group and academic instruction. It turned out to be so. For the group, for all of us, the context is important to know.

So I guess we have to believe you on this one? You read it, researched it and come to the conclusion that it is designed only for group and academic instruction and that there is absolutely no application to one on one piano lessons. That is quite a bad statement if you ask me since I have already shown how it applies to one on one lessons and others surely can can also connect to that and understand how to use it in one on one lessons that they give.

Originally Posted by keystring

If a teacher of private music lessons is considering these points and knows their original context, he'll have to say "Ok, this is for something totally different. But can I adapt some of these ideas? Which can still apply to my own teaching scenario, and which don't?" "Which of these things are too far removed from my reality?" The fact that the list was designed by a researcher for the purpose of facilitating group discussions among teens needs to be known.

You have not presented a clear idea as to why you think these skills are meant ONLY for group lessons and no one on earth possibly could fathom how to use it on one on one lessons. Don't you realize that even in classroom situations teachers deal with students one on one? Are you suggesting that there must be another book which deals with feedback that is meant only for one on one lesson? Please provide the source of this information and show how it is mutually exclusive or of great difference to the source I have given.

Originally Posted by keystring

I was exasperated when this seemed glossed over, seemingly trivialized as not mattering at all.

It certainly seem you are making a storm out of a tea cup, it seems you are unable to see past a small box you are stuck within, I have already elaborated how all of these apply to one on one lessons yet you are not willing to consider this and merely because the source has connection to classroom situation that there must be some fear that it is too difficult to apply to one on one lessons. This is ridiculous in my opinion.

Originally Posted by keystring

I asked the other teachers for help in maybe explaining the point. Yes, I read the comment about the sameness of classroom and private teaching. That is what elicited that short post of mine. I wanted someone else to explain how fostering high school group discussions is different from teaching music to a young individual in a private lesson. I addressed this to the other members, for their views.

I am offering tools that teacher smay use to deal with individual students, you however seem to want to pose question to it and make it seem like it is only for classroom situations which it isn't.


"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: keystring] #2847336
05/11/19 11:49 AM
05/11/19 11:49 AM
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Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by keystring
On this one, which was highlighted later and pointed out to me:
Originally Posted by LostinIdleWonder
Of course it applies to one on one lessons as well, could you explain how there is a total separation between the two in this instance? A teacher teaching one on one lessons is a part of a large classroom but the students are isolated. So teachers are actually a part of a large classroom of many students even though the students are segregated thus there is a strong connection between the classroom setting and one on one lessons from the teachers perspective.


This came directly after my intro, where summarized what I found about the contexts of the two separately quoted sources. It was a context to be kept in mind for exploring each of the points that followed. A thing gets defined in the intro., so that there is clarity as the body of the posts unfolds. It's a rather classical format.

It came after your intro because I thought it was a rather obvious situation that did not require to be mentioned at all. You are making it seem that all these skills cannot be used in a one on one situation becasue all the students are not present, but the teacher of course in one on one lessons has many students that they deal with all the time so is able to bring forth opinions of others to their individual students and gain feedback from them.

Originally Posted by keystring

I will not explain about "total separation" because I did not postulate anything about "separation". I postulated absolutely nothing. I simply brought out the facts, so that we know what we're dealing with.

So you have no stance, you are merely a fence sitter, you find that the source was talking about classroom settings so you are going to run with that and say any attempt to make it fit with one on one lessons is ignoring the source. This is not the way a teacher should be thinking, and any teacher who has gone to university to study teaching will laugh at you for such attempts. Are you saying that a teacher who studies teaching at university to teach a classroom is totally not equiped to use the tools they learned for classroom to work for individual students in isolation? This is extremely far fetched. This is also why you don't see teaching degrees which separete individual teaching degree and classroom teaching degree they are both together and the skills are strongly interconnected.

Originally Posted by keystring

I also asked you whether you taught one-on-one, in the classroom, or both. Knowing this would facilitate exploring the broader ideas.

I've done both. How will this facilitate broader ideas? I have done both extensively though more one on one lessons, I see a connection between the two which is extremely strong, I use the techniques I have listed here in both situations just as easily. I don't see any relevance isolating the skills to one or the other, that is not what they are intended for otherwise there would have been disclaimers in these texts saying IT IS ONLY FOR CLASSROOM DONT DARE USE IT ELSEWHERE. lol

Originally Posted by keystring

At present, I can't quite engage in what you quoted and want me to respond to. I actually find it rather vague and thus difficult to understand. This:
Quote
... So teachers are actually a part of a large classroom of many students even though the students are segregated thus there is a strong connection between the classroom setting and one on one lessons from the teachers perspective.

is sort of swimming around; the words make sense grammatically, the connection between the two sentences is there, but from a teaching perspective I'm lost, as it is too vague.

How is this vague at all? Look at what you questioned.

5) Invitations to elaborate: Invite the student to elaborate on statements made during the discussion. Students are often encouraged by such requests since in doing so the teacher is offering support to original statements made by the student.

Keystring said: This furthers a high school discussion. Do you want to "offer support to a statement" in one-on-one piano lessons?

I responded: .......You can also say what other students you have come across mention and see what they think about it, if you have taught a particular subject many times you can draw upon statements from other students and see what they think about it and allow them to elaborate and present their ideology. So there is no separation betwen the classroom and one on one lesson because the teacher is a part of a large classroom dealing with isolated individuals.

So you still didn't get this so I reworded it again for you and now you say it is vague. How many different ways does it need to be said? You are trying to isolate it so it is exclusively a multi student classroom tool but it is not.

Originally Posted by keystring

- In a classroom setting, while we were advised to mingle and interact one-on-one "as much as possible" with every student every day (that is in fact close to an impossibility with 30+ young students), mostly we found ourselves addressing a group. If I work one-on-one with a student, I can see comprehension in the student's eyes, actions, body language, and it is rather immediate.

Maybe you should try to say something another student has said to you about a topic and see how another student reacts, there are situations where this may be useful as a means for feedback. I have already stated this possiblity several times to you now.

Originally Posted by keystring

In the classroom, tests and homework are a major means of assessing. It is more distant, less interpersonal. One-on-one, I can adjust what I'm teaching on the spot, based on what I'm seeing as we interact. My assignments and plans for next week may alter due to this interaction. In the classroom, there is a master lesson plan for the group as a whole, usually in "modules" broken into a series of lesson plans. A good teacher will try to build flexibility into the teaching plans, but it is still limited compared to what I've written about the private lesson. If government interferes through external policies such as testing and such, the teacher's ability to teach responsively may become even more limited in public institutions.

You didn't make it cleaer but I assume you are discussing the "Dilatory grader" commentary. I responded that in one on one lessons: "You can give theory worksheets that are not reviewed early enough, you can also set them pieces to study and move onto something else without checking whether the work you set them in those pieces was done correctly or not until much later down the track when the student no longer is studying that piece in detail. You can set weekly goals for pieces and then not check if they were met or done appropriately during the next lesson." This is an example of feedback from the teacher that should be avoided, you have not shown that the dangers of a dilatory grader is only a classroom setting problem and has no relevance to one on one lessons. I want to talk about one on one lessons more since that is what most teachers that teach piano deal with, if you want to bring this all towards a classroom type observation then you can of course start a thread on your own that does this.

Originally Posted by keystring

The two scenarios will have different challenges, and be different in a lot of ways. Someone dealing with the scenario of fostering group discussions among adolescents, or dealing with classroom teaching, will be addressing challenges unique to those scenarios. However, there will also be things one can adapt directly or indirectly from those solutions or observations. With that I agree. I would want to sort this factor out, however. And so I did.

I do not see a separation between the two, I am interested in applying the tools to one on one lessons and not focus on classroom situation, if you go ahead and show exaclty how both are used then you will see very little difference between the two, the difference will not be so much so that the tools are predominantly only useful for one or the other teaching environment.


"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847341
05/11/19 12:03 PM
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Going to details of replies.

This one was in regard to the "summary statement" in the section of ideas by the researcher re: adolescent discussion groups.
Quote
This can usually be done at the end of studying a section or the end of the lesson where you recapitulate the main ideas that were covered in that day. If something particular was for example challenging for the student when you recap in a way which prompts them to respond by mentioning the experiences we went through that were was challenging, you could also go though any other category other than "challenging" many will encourage feedback from the student. This way you can gauge whether they have recognized the types of challenges within the lesson


There were a few other exchanges in regard to that researcher's ideas that went similarly so for the sake of space I'm only staying with this one. I see how you're applying it to private piano lessons.

The first thought I have is "what age?" In my own training in education, there were different ages needing different approaches. I specialized in the "formative years" and here you wanted to be rather concrete, not that abstract, and little bites rather than large chunks. An example we were given was: "take our your spellers" (pause while they do it), "and your note book" (pause), "open your speller to page 17" (make sure they've all found it) etc. -- concrete things more than abstract: pour water from glasses into a pitcher and draw pictures for teaching volume rather than just 100 ml. = 1 liter etc. - solids, liquids, gases; hotter expands - we made popcorn! laugh I'm seeing your scenario mostly for the older student than young ones, would that be right?

The other things were similar, probably because the context was "discussion groups", so verbal things. Piano teaching is only in part verbal.

Going on to the other resource, which felt more pertinent:
Quote
A negligent supporter will just demonstrate the correct manner and if the student says that they understand that is good enough for them, they don't test out whether the student really knows or not.

This immediately elicited questions about how piano teaching is actually done. I'd like to break this down a bit if you don't mind:

So teacher demonstrates "the correct manner". I got stuck on "student says they understand". My mind immediately went, "After the demonstration, isn't the next step that the student does what was demonstrated?" How did we get from "demonstrate" to "say"? This brought out several scenarios:

- you demonstrate. The student says nothing, but does what you have demonstrated. In the manner that the student does it, you as a teacher can see whether the student understood it.

- you demonstrate. You expect the student to practise this at home. You don't ask the student to do anything.

- you demonstrate. You ask the student if he understands, or ask him to verbalize what he understands Then the student plays, to show he understands.

- you demonstrate. You ask the student if he understands, or to verbalize what he understands. Then you assume he understood and that's that.

In my mind, only the 1st and 3rd example are "non-negligent" along this list.

This one was on "assessing and returning results"

Quote
It sure can happen in piano lessons. You can give theory worksheets that are not reviewed early enough, you can also set them pieces to study and move onto something else without checking whether the work you set them in those pieces was done correctly or not until much later down the track when the student no longer is studying that piece in detail. You can set weekly goals for pieces and then not check if they were met or done appropriately during the next lesson.


I had not thought of "theory worksheets" - this being more of an academic setting. In my mind, the first theory happens directly, getting inserted into the lesson itself. For example, as you start playing major or minor chords, that can be demonstrated in a simple way, so that later when a student gets "major / minor" in written theory, he associates it with something. But yes, definitely for theory.

The idea that a teacher would assign a piece, and then not hear that piece the next lesson, never occurred to me. In my mind, the assignments for practising and the hearing this in the next lesson are so integrally linked together, that I didn't picture this not happening. But I can see that it can and probably does.

Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847344
05/11/19 12:14 PM
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Ok, I just saw the latest response to my post. There is an overall lack of comprehension most of the time, no possible communication. Other people have bowed out way before I have, probably for similar reasons. You are also going close to attack mode in some places, which I don't appreciate, with sarcasm and such. When a friendly and neutral conversation takes that kind of turn, with things understood who knows how, then it is time to bow out.

An observation here: Some of the points in the list had to do with ensuring comprehension, listening to the student and such. But if someone indicates that a thing is unclear and difficult to understand, the response is defensive and close to aggressive. This is certainly not what I expected, given everything.

What is clear is that there is a serious communication problem, where what I read cannot be understood, or gets understood to mean something else, and I don't think that this communication gap can be bridged. So regretfully, I am bowing out. I'm leaving the floor to anyone else who may feel like participating in this thread.

I'll leave up my last post, which was written in good faith, just because it was written. If it contributes anything positive, good. If not, oh well. smile

Best of luck.

Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: keystring] #2847350
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Originally Posted by keystring

-------
One impression that is crystalizing is that maybe this is not being conducted like a group discussion ---- this being where there is an exchange of ideas among participants, new ideas being welcome and entertained, the flow of conversation being multi-directional. I'm picturing another model at this moment. A lecture by an expert professor. He has the knowledge to impart to the students in the lecture hall. Anything coming from them should be questions for clarification on his points, but his actual points are what he is teaching, and they stand firm. The students do not have ideas to contribute; they have the status of student.


I believe that is precisely the model being demonstrated. I had tried to move towards the conversation model but it appears futile.


gotta go practice
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: keystring] #2847357
05/11/19 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Ok, I just saw the latest response to my post. There is an overall lack of comprehension most of the time, no possible communication.

Why don't you quote exact parts where you think this is occuring? Words can often be left to misinterpretations perhaps if you highlight them I can elaborate and make myself better understood.

Originally Posted by keystring

Other people have bowed out way before I have, probably for similar reasons. You are also going close to attack mode in some places, which I don't appreciate, with sarcasm and such. When a friendly and neutral conversation takes that kind of turn, with things understood who knows how, then it is time to bow out.

Other do whatever they like let them, I have a strong opinion on what I wrote so it may seem like attacking but there is no tone of voice on the internet so best thing to do is quote passages you feel need further discussion. We have a lot of private messages to each other which is of a different nature so you should realize that when we are in public discussion we are only debating with what is being said not the person and it is not going to be be a debate especially if one side is trying to assume that content of the other is inappropriate for what they are suggesting (eg: you often suggest my posts on feedback and correctives mostly belong in a classroom and should not be considered for one on one lesson). So you will have me provoking you to make your stance better understood with further commentary on my thoughts of your posts.

Originally Posted by keystring

An observation here: Some of the points in the list had to do with ensuring comprehension, listening to the student and such. But if someone indicates that a thing is unclear and difficult to understand, the response is defensive and close to aggressive. This is certainly not what I expected, given everything.

So when you get the time quote me on all of this and lets discuss it, you will have to include the thread of discussion that lead up to the responses though, just taking things out of context just makes things messy.

Originally Posted by keystring

What is clear is that there is a serious communication problem, where what I read cannot be understood, or gets understood to mean something else, and I don't think that this communication gap can be bridged. So regretfully, I am bowing out. I'm leaving the floor to anyone else who may feel like participating in this thread.

Thats a shame but I can't force you into anything, perhaps you will change your mind later.

Originally Posted by keystring

I'll leave up my last post, which was written in good faith, just because it was written. If it contributes anything positive, good. If not, oh well. smile

Best of luck.

Well perhaps you can quote where you think I have treated you unfairly and perhaps then I can explain my stance on it again depending on what you think I missed. It is nothing personal.


"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: TimR] #2847358
05/11/19 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TimR
Originally Posted by keystring

-------
One impression that is crystalizing is that maybe this is not being conducted like a group discussion ---- this being where there is an exchange of ideas among participants, new ideas being welcome and entertained, the flow of conversation being multi-directional. I'm picturing another model at this moment. A lecture by an expert professor. He has the knowledge to impart to the students in the lecture hall. Anything coming from them should be questions for clarification on his points, but his actual points are what he is teaching, and they stand firm. The students do not have ideas to contribute; they have the status of student.


I believe that is precisely the model being demonstrated. I had tried to move towards the conversation model but it appears futile.

You keep respond with critque about length of posts. I have already asked you to consider some points in my last repsonse to you before this one which you do not want to take up and discuss with me, that is your unwillingness to continue the conversation.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/11/19 12:47 PM.

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Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: keystring] #2847368
05/11/19 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Going to details of replies.
This one was in regard to the "summary statement" in the section of ideas by the researcher re: adolescent discussion groups.
Quote
This can usually be done at the end of studying a section or the end of the lesson where you recapitulate the main ideas that were covered in that day. If something particular was for example challenging for the student when you recap in a way which prompts them to respond by mentioning the experiences we went through that were was challenging, you could also go though any other category other than "challenging" many will encourage feedback from the student. This way you can gauge whether they have recognized the types of challenges within the lesson


There were a few other exchanges in regard to that researcher's ideas that went similarly so for the sake of space I'm only staying with this one.

I see how you're applying it to private piano lessons.
.......I'm seeing your scenario mostly for the older student than young ones, would that be right?

No, I don't see how this would be isolated only for older students.What is wrong with asking young students these kind of thing?

Here is a made up situation which actually happens a lot to me in lessons with young kids:

Teacher: "Wasn't that part x quite tricky today but you did well and got though it really well don't you think?"
[positive reenfocement and using declarative statement to focus students attention on an important issue and prompting them to give feedback on that key point of the lesson that was a challenge]

Young student: *gives a cheesy grin and kicks feet which are dangling from the piano stool
[this non verbal communication generally shows that they agree with what has been said, if there is no happy response then usually they don't know what you are talking about but is not enough in terms of feedback so you will need to prompt again.]

Teacher: "What was it that helped you get through it?"
[inviting elaboration on my declarative statement]

Young student: "I dont know. Are we finished with todays lesson?"
[Naturally some children want to avoid having to go through more work near end of lessons, not all will but I added this just because it happens a lot lol]

Teacher: Come on, what did we do when we faced this problem?"
[not accepting their laziness, prompting them again in a upbeat and happy manner]

Young student: We did *explains the process from their perspective in a flippant manner*

Teacher: So this part was a challenge because of (use part of their previous response) but what helped you get through it did we do something that really helped?
[restating the declarative statement connecting it to some of their feedback. Now what really had helped them in this lesson was mentioned a lot in during the lesson before this dialogue so I would expect if they payed attnetion in the lesson that they will know, if not I will prompt them or give hints until they say it, it is not like they are coming up with this all on the spot now, we actually solved it many times during the lesson*

Young student: * repeats the xxxxxx process in their own words with more consideration*
[teacher recieves the feedback appropriately in words]

Teacher: Ok how about you show me one... last.... time....how you did it?
[students feedback needs to one final time be demonstrated physically]

Young student: awww but the lessons finished after that ok?

Teacher: yep quickly show me then we can finish, pretend im not here do it all on your own, no help from me!
[Encourage once more that they can do this on their own when I am not around them, encoragement that they can practice this alone for the week, this also would have been done and the game of "pretend in not here" done before so they realize they can do this all on their own without me acting as their training wheels]

young student: demonstrates.
[the of declarative statment - gettting students feedback - getting students to demonstrate their knowledge on their own completes the goal that the information requested from the declarative statement needs]

This sort of situation above is something that I am not too unfarmilar with young students. I prompt feedback from them with my declarative statement, focus their attention on a key detail of our lesson for that day, search for feedback from them, then ask them to demonstate it one last time as a recap. Of course we would have done it well in the lesson but its always good to summarize it all so the student will know they can do it again on their own.


Originally Posted by keystring

The other things were similar, probably because the context was "discussion groups", so verbal things. Piano teaching is only in part verbal.

Part verbal part physical action, you can't have one without the other.

Originally Posted by keystring

Going on to the other resource, which felt more pertinent:
Quote
A negligent supporter will just demonstrate the correct manner and if the student says that they understand that is good enough for them, they don't test out whether the student really knows or not.

This immediately elicited questions about how piano teaching is actually done. I'd like to break this down a bit if you don't mind:

So teacher demonstrates "the correct manner". I got stuck on "student says they understand". My mind immediately went, "After the demonstration, isn't the next step that the student does what was demonstrated?" How did we get from "demonstrate" to "say"? This brought out several scenarios:

- you demonstrate. The student says nothing, but does what you have demonstrated. In the manner that the student does it, you as a teacher can see whether the student understood it.

- you demonstrate. You expect the student to practise this at home. You don't ask the student to do anything.

- you demonstrate. You ask the student if he understands, or ask him to verbalize what he understands Then the student plays, to show he understands.

- you demonstrate. You ask the student if he understands, or to verbalize what he understands. Then you assume he understood and that's that.

In my mind, only the 1st and 3rd example are "non-negligent" along this list.

This one was on "assessing and returning results"

1 and 3 seem to be the same thing though since in 3 you didn't specify if the student responded with words and merely played to show they understand, I guess you mean they verbalized and demonstrated where in 1 there is no verbal just demonstration. I still think 1 is a failure on the teachers behalf because they need the student someitmes to verbalize something they have done unless it is obviously very easy and has indeed been discussed before. But if it is a new skill learned the circle of verbalization and demonstration needs to be fulfiled.


Originally Posted by keystring

Quote
It sure can happen in piano lessons. You can give theory worksheets that are not reviewed early enough, you can also set them pieces to study and move onto something else without checking whether the work you set them in those pieces was done correctly or not until much later down the track when the student no longer is studying that piece in detail. You can set weekly goals for pieces and then not check if they were met or done appropriately during the next lesson.


I had not thought of "theory worksheets" - this being more of an academic setting. In my mind, the first theory happens directly, getting inserted into the lesson itself. For example, as you start playing major or minor chords, that can be demonstrated in a simple way, so that later when a student gets "major / minor" in written theory, he associates it with something. But yes, definitely for theory.

The idea that a teacher would assign a piece, and then not hear that piece the next lesson, never occurred to me. In my mind, the assignments for practising and the hearing this in the next lesson are so integrally linked together, that I didn't picture this not happening. But I can see that it can and probably does.


It also as I said relates to pieces that you have set them, the goals you have set them to accomplish, if you don't check they have done it this can be considered a "Dilatory grader".

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/11/19 01:33 PM.

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Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847448
05/11/19 11:31 PM
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Thanks for trying, keystring, but I find that this game isn't worth the candle.


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Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847450
05/11/19 11:42 PM
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Just because people are not agreeing doesn't mean that the discussion isn't worth it. Some people seem to be so scared when these things happen. Having everyone agree does not always bring about the best results, testing one anothers position allows two sides of the story to be argued. What we don't need is useless kibitzing about issues which do not draw the thread into further discussion, but the internet is a place of anarchy you can't stop people who want to post with little thought.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/11/19 11:43 PM.

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Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847635
05/12/19 10:52 PM
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I like to buy antiques, old music books are of particular interest to me, I purchased a book over 100 years old which I found quite interesting and wanted to share some of it with you all which I think is quite relevant even today as to how to build up a student.

TO THE TEACHER:
Every experienced teacher has doubtless endured the inevitable trials incident to teaching beginners, chief among which , perhaps, is the difficulty of inducing young pupils to raise and drop their fingers without sluggishness while their eyes are intent upon the music page.

Referring to this particular trial, a recent writing aptly says "I arrived at the conclusion that the pupil ought to be his own watchdog, as it were and see himself play, which is contrary to the universal dictum." And so the competent teacher of today wisely refrains from teaching the beginner to read music until a sufficient amount of prior practice by dictation shall have assured the proper position and movement of the arm, hand and fingers while the eyes are engaged by the music book. This method is well calculated to awaken early interest and to maintain it; for more so than the older custom of endeavoring to teach the proper use of the hands and finger and reading of notes simultaneously.

We assume that beginners in the profession of teaching music, have no prejudice in favor of the old way, will follow our suggestions without question; but some of the older teachers may hesitate to adopt a system so directly opposed to time-worn custom. To the latter we will simply say: Try it and let the results render a verdict.

We urgently recommend (unless the conditions positively forbid and especially if the pupil is very young) that daily half-hour lessons, or practice in the presence of the teacher, be insisted upon, at least during the first three months.

We also desire to impress upon the young teacher the great importance of encouraging, during the earlier stages of musical tuition, the habit of deep, serious thought and careful, critical listening. In other words, do your best to make the pupil use brain as well as hands.

By no means allow the pupil to ignore, in the slightest degree, the directions as to touch, in its varied forms and their applications; or to shrink the difficulties and drudgery of technical exercises, counting aloud, etc etc.

Encouraging the pupil to commit to play from memory all of the more important pieces. As a means to pomote this valuable acquirement, we have found that the following plan brings good results:

First call the pupil's attention to the general plan, form or noticeable features of the peice about to be played; then give warning that after playing the first three of four measures, you will cover the music and require them to play the passage from memory. It is astonishing how a frequent resort to this experiment will quicken the pupil's perception and promote the habit of closely scanning the music when played for the first time.

It may be almost superfluous to add that it is next to impossible to exaggerate the importance of a correct beginning.

Leading teachers now concede that a pupil can be properly taught musically and technically in such a way that much of the drudgery consequent upon old methods will be avoided, while at the same time more rapid progress will be attained; and this, too, while the studies, instead of being dry and uninteresting are made actually enjoyable.

Every effort should be made to awaken the musical instincts of the pupil. The successful teacher will know how to do this by numerous little methods which must be varied to suit the individuality of the pupil. Many players and singers are mechanical musicians because they have been taught too much mechanism and too little music. Care should be taken that the pupil's soul be not smothered in the drudgery of fingering exercises, however indispensable these may be in their proper place.

Music teachers, who are worthy of the name, make as much money by teaching as do the workers in any other profession. Many a business man does not clear as much money in a year as is earned by scores of hard working competent music teachers, and it is only the lazy, shiftless, incompetent, so called teachers of music who bring public odium on a comparatively lucrative profession. But the possession of talent is nothing unless it is accompanied by energy and industry which gives it a place in the busy world. It stands to reason, that, to secure success in life, the musician, whether teacher or artist, must cultivate the money earning talent like other men. Musicians must learn to take practical views of art life. Whether they are willing or not, the world will force them to learn the hard lesson of life.


TO THE PARENTS:
In the better class of public schools it is now the practice to teach children to read before they have learned the alphabet. A generation ago such a process would have been considered as evidence of insanity, which proves that we are progressing in our educational methods. If, therefore, the plan employed by music teachers of your selection shall prove to be a radical departure from the methods formerly in vogue, remember that this fact may be a strong recommendation of it.

If there be a choice of teachers, you will find that the best results will be attained by employing the most competent instructor; if possible, one of experience and established reputation.

Parents should willingly cooperate with the teacher in enforcing the observance of regular practice hours and doubtless would do so far more faithfully if they could realize how largely a pupil's success and advancement depends upon such parental cooperation.

With our modern system of teaching beginners, there is no reason why children in good health may not begin their musical studies at the age of six or seven years, especially if circumstances permit the pupil to take daily lessons, which should certainly be done at the outset, if possible.

It is a mistake to expect great results simply because a child displays unmistakable talent. Parents should remember that without the talent for hard work natural gifts are practically worthless.

Among other things that indicate the advisability of an early beginning, is the fact that school duties are likely to crowd hard after a child reaches the "teens" and later the demands of society are more or less exacting. Moreover, when children being early, music becomes a part of their school life; and, by the way, when the summer vacation comes let it be a vacation in music also.


1906, P . F Banes

extracted from: Cornish's Practical Instructor


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Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847683
05/13/19 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Just because people are not agreeing doesn't mean that the discussion isn't worth it. Some people seem to be so scared when these things happen. Having everyone agree does not always bring about the best results, testing one anothers position allows two sides of the story to be argued. What we don't need is useless kibitzing about issues which do not draw the thread into further discussion, but the internet is a place of anarchy you can't stop people who want to post with little thought.


I don't have a problem with disagreement.
I do find that the more the participants stray from the cooperative principle, the less effective the communication becomes.

https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/dravling/grice.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_principle


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