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Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Morodiene] #2847021
05/10/19 10:53 AM
05/10/19 10:53 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
I am a piano student, not a piano teacher. However I have other topics I teach occasionally and I am very interested in ideas about teaching.

LostinidleWonder, I found your description of entering into the point of view of your autistic student to be very moving.

I found your description of ways of thinking/processing to be useful to me, because I recognized a lot about myself in the description of an abstract thinker. It leads me to think about trying to escape my usual abstract filter in certain activities I do, and see what happens if I try to immerse myself in the sensation of the experience instead.

That is what is good about forums that we can share knowledge and help others grow as well as get various perspectives from others experiences.[...]

Seriously, it's fine if you want to write such long posts, but there is a common thing called "TL;DR" - too long, didn't read - where you summarize in a few short sentences for those who don't wish to wade through everything. Having this is respectful of people's time and attention spans. Just a suggestion.

I don't write for the intention for interesting people who only want to read short responses, I am not one to follow fashions either, I do what I do I don't copy others just to fit in. I am a dissident and this goes hand in hand with my creativity. I could now respond with 10+ paragraphs on the connecton between dissidence and creativity but I will spare you. You're welcome lol.


"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
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Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Morodiene] #2847022
05/10/19 10:54 AM
05/10/19 10:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,485
Finland
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
I am a piano student, not a piano teacher. However I have other topics I teach occasionally and I am very interested in ideas about teaching.

LostinidleWonder, I found your description of entering into the point of view of your autistic student to be very moving.

I found your description of ways of thinking/processing to be useful to me, because I recognized a lot about myself in the description of an abstract thinker. It leads me to think about trying to escape my usual abstract filter in certain activities I do, and see what happens if I try to immerse myself in the sensation of the experience instead.

That is what is good about forums that we can share knowledge and help others grow as well as get various perspectives from others experiences.[...]

Seriously, it's fine if you want to write such long posts, but there is a common thing called "TL;DR" - too long, didn't read - where you summarize in a few short sentences for those who don't wish to wade through everything. Having this is respectful of people's time and attention spans. Just a suggestion.

It is understandable, but on the other hand no-one is forced to read or comment on every thread are they? How mature is it to ridicule and be rude to a poster who writes seriously about his views even if one does not agree or understand them? I do not mean you obviously, but just look at some of the posts here. They have made the thread even longer without contributing nothing constructive.

Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Morodiene] #2847023
05/10/19 10:54 AM
05/10/19 10:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by ebonykawai
I could say I am shocked that this thread is still going but I'm not, lol.

Only 346 posts to go to break the record set 10 years ago for longest thread in Piano Teachers Forum. What do you say? Shall we make a run for it?


I'm game! I'm sure we can find a way to further degrade this thread. laugh

Admiting to "degrade" threads, really that doesn't bid well for you as a contributer to pianoworld.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/10/19 10:54 AM.

"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: outo] #2847025
05/10/19 11:01 AM
05/10/19 11:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
I am a piano student, not a piano teacher. However I have other topics I teach occasionally and I am very interested in ideas about teaching.

LostinidleWonder, I found your description of entering into the point of view of your autistic student to be very moving.

I found your description of ways of thinking/processing to be useful to me, because I recognized a lot about myself in the description of an abstract thinker. It leads me to think about trying to escape my usual abstract filter in certain activities I do, and see what happens if I try to immerse myself in the sensation of the experience instead.

That is what is good about forums that we can share knowledge and help others grow as well as get various perspectives from others experiences.[...]

Seriously, it's fine if you want to write such long posts, but there is a common thing called "TL;DR" - too long, didn't read - where you summarize in a few short sentences for those who don't wish to wade through everything. Having this is respectful of people's time and attention spans. Just a suggestion.

It is understandable, but on the other hand no-one is forced to read or comment on every thread are they? How mature is it to ridicule and be rude to a poster who writes seriously about his views even if one does not agree or understand them? I do not mean you obviously, but just look at some of the posts here. They have made the thread even longer without contributing nothing constructive.

I agree outo, it doens't bid well for these people who I assume are supposed to be teachers. What kind of teachers behave in this fashion? Ignoring the actual content of the work, crying about length of posts, trying to poke fun and joke around, quite immature. Their initial attempts to try and argue my work by contending with the actual infromation I have given were all responded to by me and further elaborated then I found because they have no idea how to continue the discussion or respond to my elaborations to still be heard they band together and play games kibitizng unconstructive remarks. At least I get to know who really is worth something here. Again it is the small minority which are loud and argumentative, the vast majority actually read intelligently and quietly and that is who I cater for more so though I am open to have serious discussion with anyone and I think I have shown that with anyone who has asked serious questions or shared interesting experiences.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/10/19 11:03 AM.

"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: outo] #2847029
05/10/19 11:17 AM
05/10/19 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by outo
I do not mean you obviously, but just look at some of the posts here. They have made the thread even longer without contributing nothing constructive.

Hey! I resemble that remark! I'm here to contribute a very useful count. 331 more posts to go before this thread breaks the Piano Teacher Forum record - currently 40th longest thread, and counting!grin

Gonna stick around for that.

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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Morodiene] #2847041
05/10/19 11:56 AM
05/10/19 11:56 AM
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Virginia, USA
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Seriously, it's fine if you want to write such long posts, but there is a common thing called "TL;DR" - too long, didn't read - where you summarize in a few short sentences for those who don't wish to wade through everything. Having this is respectful of people's time and attention spans. Just a suggestion.


Ah yes, TL/DR.


1. Editing and condensing a stream of consciousness style information dump can force one to focus, think clearly, and produce a better end product. (those of us who do church music certainly see the difference during the sermon!)

2. Making posts concise with clear points allows for reasoned response, which can also help the OP think through topics more deeply.

3. Is feedback about communication style so offensive? Nobody improves as a musician without some constructive feedback about how to do it better - why would someone utterly reject the same about their writing? I don't know anyone who's perfect at either.


gotta go practice
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2847043
05/10/19 11:58 AM
05/10/19 11:58 AM
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Posts: 4,300
Virginia, USA
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
ey! I resemble that remark! I'm here to contribute a very useful count. 331 more posts to go before this thread breaks the Piano Teacher Forum record - currently 40th longest thread, and counting!grin

Gonna stick around for that.



We can ensure that, if we invite LiW's old nemesis nyiregyhazi back to the fold.


gotta go practice
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847046
05/10/19 12:03 PM
05/10/19 12:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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I thought I would share one way of building up and developing beginner,intermediate and some advanced students in terms of building practice craft. Essential it is to: "Learn as many easier pieces that can be learned fast without necessarily perfecting them rather than studying few pieces that are near the maximum playing potential and aiming to mastering them." This is separate from studying how to polish pieces to their highest potential which will be absent from the following.

The benefits is that students that go through a lot of works understand many examples of the learning procedure of a pieces from start to finish in quick time and develop good reading skills. They also understand the analysis that we go through to learn a piece and a layered approach to tackle difficult situations. Their skills to learn are built up, it is efficient and well practiced. Most importantly their practice method has had a large experience base to develop with and draw from. Naturally students with poor reading skills may have to start at a very low level which may be many times lower than their playing ability and this can be diffciult to deal with for the student.

It is not unusual with some of my diligent students who study practice craft intensely with me to study a hundred or so pieces a month, working the learning process quite hard. It is this action of taking a piece and learning it from scratch in quick time that is very useful when teaching students training practice craft. This of course requires that you choose a level of repertoire that they can grasp hold of quickly and often represents pieces many levels lower than their potential maximum playing ability. There has to be some kind of acceptable standard to the playing which is achieved fast and if you choose pieces that are not easy it will be will be very noticeable that this standard is not met rapidly.

Some teacher only give students pieces which take many weeks and even months to learn, pieces at near their maximum potential. Of course our hands are tied if a student must do examinations which expect us to jump through certain hoops, but outside of exams I would keep away from exclusively doing such things. It is ok to study more difficult projects that take a long time but the point is that it should not become the main focus or you risk becoming inefficient with your progress. One should make it a priority to sharpen practice method with numerous examples and importantly have a grasp of what the level is for pieces can be done quick and efficeintly. I let my students take on difficult projects that stretch their capabilities if they insist but encourage them to focus on smaller manageable pieces, the problem is that some are so obsessed over their big projects that they blind themselves from the fact they are burning away so much time learning things that are difficult for them and this should not be a main focus.

The empowerment is that the more "easy pieces" (pieces that can be completed rapidly with little challenges) you work through the higher the bar raises as to what is easy for your to learn. Some people approach this oppositely and do things much too difficult for them in hope that it raises the bar, this can however take uncontrolled extended periods of time which doesn't meet well with efficiency issues though of course it can be useful and act as a catalyst to ones progress but I feel it must have a connection to their easy base level to fully apprecaite that and should represent the majority of their study focus.

Some students tell me they are not interested in being able to approach music in this fashion and much prefer simply playing a small selection of pieces they like. I feel this is missing a bigger picture, they could play all the pieces in their list much faster and rapidly and explore even more works if they only built up towards it. So one needs to be careful in building them up to a point where they understand the benefits of studying many easy peices to raise the level of what is actually easy for them to learn.

I think it is challenging to build a bottom-up repertoire program that creates an efficient progress in a given student. You will find sometimes you push them too far with a given set of pieces and must abandon may of them it due to efficiency issues, sometimes you give pieces which are just too basic and offer nothing new, both of these are useful of course and none of this is wasted work but in terms of efficiency you want to find something that is easy but not too easy and which offers slight challenge which can be conquered efficiently. It is better to miss the mark and give works that are too easy rather than harder ones. Though you can mix up the groupings by giving pieces which are more challenging but insist that the students don't waste time trying to master trouble parts but just try to get their hands around them fast and even neglecting parts which pose as too difficult. You can get them to circle parts which are too difficult to learn in quick time and this can provide interesting analaysis in lesson as to why these parts are too hard. Some students have a very fast learning curve so the groups of pieces need to be more steeply progressive and then taper off as you reach saturation points in terms of their capability to complete the groups efficiently, others have a snail speed and thus the gradient of the difficult/time is much flatter.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/10/19 12:06 PM.

"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: TimR] #2847048
05/10/19 12:05 PM
05/10/19 12:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by TimR
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
ey! I resemble that remark! I'm here to contribute a very useful count. 331 more posts to go before this thread breaks the Piano Teacher Forum record - currently 40th longest thread, and counting!grin

Gonna stick around for that.



We can ensure that, if we invite LiW's old nemesis nyiregyhazi back to the fold.

Don't you like the effect I have on people, I really get forums juices flowing smile

Poor nyir, he doesn't like interacting with me anymore, though the responses from some of you guys on this thread requires much less thought than what he had.

Last edited by Lostinidlewonder; 05/10/19 12:08 PM.

"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Dr. Rogers] #2847112
05/10/19 02:53 PM
05/10/19 02:53 PM
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Posts: 8,206
Orange County, CA
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Originally Posted by Dr. Rogers
Moderators, would it be possible to get a forum ONLY for piano teachers, with some sort of validation process?

Well, I like the input from some parents and students.

People have the right to express themselves, even if it makes them look stupid, arrogant, and narcissistic. In fact, I am enjoying this train wreck.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: outo] #2847115
05/10/19 02:59 PM
05/10/19 02:59 PM
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Orange County, CA
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Originally Posted by outo
How mature is it to ridicule and be rude to a poster who writes seriously about his views even if one does not agree or understand them?

Freedom of expression is a two-way street.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Morodiene] #2847152
05/10/19 04:47 PM
05/10/19 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
I am a piano student, not a piano teacher. However I have other topics I teach occasionally and I am very interested in ideas about teaching.

LostinidleWonder, I found your description of entering into the point of view of your autistic student to be very moving.

I found your description of ways of thinking/processing to be useful to me, because I recognized a lot about myself in the description of an abstract thinker. It leads me to think about trying to escape my usual abstract filter in certain activities I do, and see what happens if I try to immerse myself in the sensation of the experience instead.

That is what is good about forums that we can share knowledge and help others grow as well as get various perspectives from others experiences.[...]

Seriously, it's fine if you want to write such long posts, but there is a common thing called "TL;DR" - too long, didn't read - where you summarize in a few short sentences for those who don't wish to wade through everything. Having this is respectful of people's time and attention spans. Just a suggestion.
.

TL:DR is a nice convention, but I don’t remember it being used on PW......., and there are many cases where it would be fitting.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847160
05/10/19 05:23 PM
05/10/19 05:23 PM
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LostinidleWonder, I am particularly struck in your recent posts by what you say about assigning tasks that a student can succeed at — just as they are, not as some idealized perfect-student version of themselves. I also like how you talk about repertoire and having an awareness of the kinds of skills each piece can be used to teach.

I’m intrigued by your 100+ pieces approach.


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Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2847174
05/10/19 06:19 PM
05/10/19 06:19 PM
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Posts: 17,153
Canada
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
]331 more posts to go before this thread breaks the Piano Teacher Forum record....

Please stop already.

Thank you.

Last edited by keystring; 05/10/19 06:19 PM.
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: keystring] #2847175
05/10/19 06:23 PM
05/10/19 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
331 more posts to go before this thread breaks the Piano Teacher Forum record....

Please stop already.

Thank you.

Why?

In a thread where insults seem to be the common currency, what I do is the mildest form of poking fun, not at the people, but the entire thread itself.

Don't take yourself so seriously. Seriously wink


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847187
05/10/19 07:22 PM
05/10/19 07:22 PM
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Posts: 17,153
Canada
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Catching up.

I looked at the two lists:
1) the one by Dilton: declarative statements, reflective restatements, prescriptions, "declarations of perplexity", "invitations to elaborate", "questions generated from other people", "deliberate silence".

2) the other written by a pair: "negligent supporter", "negative contributor", "dilatory grader", "feckless diagnosition etc." (types of teachers)

Dilton, is addressing group discussions in a high school setting, probably for academic subjects. "Analysis of teacher-student exchanges in high-school discussion classes .... " He seems to be an observing researcher rather than a practising teaching drawing on his experiences with students.

Since the other resource also seemed to reflect classroom practices, I realize that I have neglected to ask whether you teach in the classroom, or one-on-one?

Imagining that almost everyone here teaches piano, one-on-one, probably mostly younger students ---- while some of us might have a teaching background but be piano students, or just be piano students, taking one-on-one lessons ... looking at Dilton's examples:
Quote
1) Declarative statements: The teacher expresses points of view, thoughts, summary statements etc about a topic. Subject statements will often prompt students to express their own views.

In a piano lesson, will you be having "summary statements" about a topic, and is your goal to prompt students to say things about it? If so, in what kind of circumstance?
Quote
2) Reflective restatements: The teacher summarizes and reflects on what has been previously said. Such statements allow the teacher to focus on important aspects of content previously stated by students.

I do see this one, actually. I will sometimes restate what my teacher said, reflecting what I understood, to make sure I understood it. Sometimes I need to put it into my own words. Most often, the teacher wants to see his statement "reflected" through action - hands on the piano doing something. wink If a student says a thing, rather than the teacher "reacting", it may be good to reflect back, to make sure it was understood properly in the first place.

Actually that might be good in this thread, including when I have stated something and got a "reaction" above all.

Quote
3) Prescriptions: The teacher tells a student to contribute to the discussion (eg: "tell me what you think?")

Remember, all of this was set out for high school discussions. Does this have a place in a piano lesson, working on The Happy Farmer and whatever needs to be sussed out there?

Quote
4) Declarations of perplexity: Express concern or difficulty in finding a solution to a problem. This will often prompt the student to offer suggestions or solutions.

Important point. HONESTY. If you, as a teacher in a one-on-one relationship, pretend to be perplexed when you're not, then you're playing games and that is dishonest. If you want me to find a solution myself, say so. When I've worn the teacher hat, I've always been honest.
Quote
5) Invitations to elaborate: Invite the student to elaborate on statements made during the discussion. Students are often encouraged by such requests since in doing so the teacher is offering support to original statements made by the student.

This furthers a high school discussion. Do you want to "offer support to a statement" in one-on-one piano lessons?
Quote
6) Questions generated from other people: Ask the student to talk to their peers, friends or family about certain issues and come up with questions that they might be able to ask the teacher.

You might well got, "My aunt told me what you're teaching is all wrong. My neighbour says her teacher does it better than you." Piano teachers often pull their hair out at the interference they get in their teaching from outside. Do you want your student to "talk to peers, friends, or family" about piano study issues?
Quote
7) Deliberate silence: Silence will allow students an opportunity to reflect on subject matters. It is sometimes appropriate to have "think time" of silence at set intervals during discussion.

Maybe. In piano lessons we're not in "during discussion mode" - but there are moments during the lesson.

========================
The other - the "types of teachers".
My impression here was that this involved classroom teachers, teachers of academic subjects, and not piano teachers. I may be wrong.
Quote
- Negligent supporter:
Simply these teachers neglect to give students feedback and correctives. They are usually satisfied that they are able to explain subjects the first time and the students will absorb it all. After explaining or demonstrating they fail to check that the student has really understood the lesson. They do not allow much room if at all for questioning from the student during the lesson so there is little feedback and correctives being used.

Thinking that "explained / demonstrated once - it's understood" - yes, that can be a failing.

However, in a piano setting, aren't you finding out what the student has understood by observing how they play after the demonstration/explanation?

Quote
- Dilatory grader:
These teachers are so slow in assessing and returning results to students that the results and comments are of little help as feedback. Routine work tasks are rarely assessed on time and the students have to wait for knowledge of results on their learning process. Feedback is always so late that the students are unable to take advantage of the information when it is provided.


Does this occur in a piano teaching setting? "Assessing and returning results" sounds like classroom, academics, homework, study. In a private lesson, can you have a "dilatory grader"? Do you not have feedback during the lesson each time, maybe multiple times in a lesson.

Can "dilatory grading" happen in piano lessons?

Quote
- Feckless diagnostician and poor provider of correctives:
Unable to give appropriate correctives because of inadequate knowledge of the students learning problems. They do not attend to the details of the students responses and often fail to diagnose gaps in the students understanding of the subject matter. They are thus unable to provide the required correctives that will help students overcome their problems, or they are reluctant to modify their teaching methods so their corrective instruction can become effective.


This one probably applies. It goes with what I wrote about:
- see your student (know how to observe)
- have the knowledge to impart in the first place, and the teaching skills to do so.

That's what I seen in those lists.

Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847198
05/10/19 08:04 PM
05/10/19 08:04 PM
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Posts: 5,444
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Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder

...I agree outo, it doens't bid well ...


I think you mean "...it doesn't bode well..."
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/bode


Learner
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: keystring] #2847239
05/10/19 11:29 PM
05/10/19 11:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
Full Member
Lostinidlewonder  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Keystring I have responded to a number of your questions in this thread already and got no response back, it seems as if you are merely thowing questions at me and not continuing on the discussion, that is fine but I would also like you to respond to my answers to you it may lead to further elaborations which are useful.

Originally Posted by keystring
Catching up.
I looked at the two lists:
1) the one by Dilton: declarative statements, reflective restatements, prescriptions, "declarations of perplexity", "invitations to elaborate", "questions generated from other people", "deliberate silence".

2) the other written by a pair: "negligent supporter", "negative contributor", "dilatory grader", "feckless diagnosition etc." (types of teachers)

Dilton, is addressing group discussions in a high school setting, probably for academic subjects. "Analysis of teacher-student exchanges in high-school discussion classes .... " He seems to be an observing researcher rather than a practising teaching drawing on his experiences with students.

Since the other resource also seemed to reflect classroom practices, I realize that I have neglected to ask whether you teach in the classroom, or one-on-one?

Of course it applies to one on one lessons as well, could you explain how there is a total separation between the two in this instance? A teacher teaching one on one lessons is a part of a large classroom but the students are isolated. So teachers are actually a part of a large classroom of many students even though the students are segregated thus there is a strong connection between the classroom setting and one on one lessons from the teachers perspective.

Originally Posted by keystring

Quote
1) Declarative statements: The teacher expresses points of view, thoughts, summary statements etc about a topic. Subject statements will often prompt students to express their own views.

In a piano lesson, will you be having "summary statements" about a topic, and is your goal to prompt students to say things about it? If so, in what kind of circumstance?

The exact circumstance you will be able to apply to your very own surely if you are teaching you can imagine situations where it can be done. This can usually be done at the end of studying a section or the end of the lesson where you recapitulate the main ideas that were covered in that day. If something particular was for example challenging for the student when you recap in a way which prompts them to respond by mentioning the experices we went through that were was challenging, you could also go though any other category other than "challenging" many will encourage feedback from the student. This way you can guage whether they have recognised the types of challenges within the lesson. If the student is not prompted to respond this can sometimes highlight that they need to be made more aware of the issues and their thoughts on it.


Originally Posted by keystring

Quote
2) Reflective restatements: The teacher summarizes and reflects on what has been previously said. Such statements allow the teacher to focus on important aspects of content previously stated by students.

I do see this one, actually. I will sometimes restate what my teacher said, reflecting what I understood, to make sure I understood it. Sometimes I need to put it into my own words. Most often, the teacher wants to see his statement "reflected" through action - hands on the piano doing something. wink If a student says a thing, rather than the teacher "reacting", it may be good to reflect back, to make sure it was understood properly in the first place.

Actually that might be good in this thread, including when I have stated something and got a "reaction" above all.

The key word in "reflective restatements" is that you are summarizing what the students have said about the content of the lesson rather than the teacher. So you are using the students very own words as a point of discussion. In the declarative statement, the teacher is prompting the student to make a realisation of the content then often this will lead to reflective restatement process.

Originally Posted by keystring

Quote
3) Prescriptions: The teacher tells a student to contribute to the discussion (eg: "tell me what you think?")

Remember, all of this was set out for high school discussions. Does this have a place in a piano lesson, working on The Happy Farmer and whatever needs to be sussed out there?

Again I don't understand your concern that this is meant only for a multiple student classroom situation and it is totally excluded from one on one lessons. When a teacher describes something to the student at the end of the description you can simply ask questions to get them to contribute to what was said. "What else do you think we could add? Tell me what you think? Do you feel that this is hard? Do you feel that this easy? Do you agree with this? How else do you think we could do this?" etc etc.

Originally Posted by keystring

Quote
4) Declarations of perplexity: Express concern or difficulty in finding a solution to a problem. This will often prompt the student to offer suggestions or solutions.

Important point. HONESTY. If you, as a teacher in a one-on-one relationship, pretend to be perplexed when you're not, then you're playing games and that is dishonest. If you want me to find a solution myself, say so. When I've worn the teacher hat, I've always been honest.

I think you are misunderstanding the way in which this is done. A student can know you are not actually perplexed at all but prompting them to give the solution. This works very well in many cases. For young children they like to be able to answer something that the teacher is pretending to not know the answer to, it is good fun for them if you have ever tried it. For older students they realize that you are challening them to answer in a playful manner, they also wont feel that you are being a know it all authoriarian and actually lowering yourself to their level and inviting to solve the problem with them at their level. There is nothing about being dishonest at all.

Originally Posted by keystring

Quote
5) Invitations to elaborate: Invite the student to elaborate on statements made during the discussion. Students are often encouraged by such requests since in doing so the teacher is offering support to original statements made by the student.

This furthers a high school discussion. Do you want to "offer support to a statement" in one-on-one piano lessons?

You can start a statement on something and pause and invite the student to continue. You can also explain something very simply and encourage the student to elaborate upon it. You can also say what other students you have come across mention and see what they think about it, if you have taught a particular subject many times you can draw upon statements from other students and see what they think about it and allow them to elaborate and present their ideology. So there is no separation betwen the classroom and one on one lesson because the teacher is a part of a large classroom dealing with isolated individuals.

Originally Posted by keystring


6) Questions generated from other people: Ask the student to talk to their peers, friends or family about certain issues and come up with questions that they might be able to ask the teacher. [/quote]
You might well got, "My aunt told me what you're teaching is all wrong. My neighbour says her teacher does it better than you." Piano teachers often pull their hair out at the interference they get in their teaching from outside. Do you want your student to "talk to peers, friends, or family" about piano study issues?
[/quote]
Certainly it is encouraged for them to discuss their lessons outside of the lesson environment. Many of my younger students work with their parents/guardians while practicing outside of the lessons and I encourage them to write down any concerns, challenges etc that they come up with during their discussions. I don't see how this would interfere with lessons, there is can always be a negotiation as to what is done in lessons anyway it doesn't have to be dictated by the teacher alone though we should have most say.

Originally Posted by keystring

Quote
7) Deliberate silence: Silence will allow students an opportunity to reflect on subject matters. It is sometimes appropriate to have "think time" of silence at set intervals during discussion.

Maybe. In piano lessons we're not in "during discussion mode" - but there are moments during the lesson.

Deliberate silence is a handy tool to use after something deep or very important has been said, it allows them time to absorb or prompts them to realize what has been said should be considered closely. I can sometimes ask a question and ask them to think about it for a while before responding, this will require deliberate silence while they process their answer. Thinking deeply before they speak requires that extended silence and should be encouraged.

Originally Posted by keystring

========================
The other - the "types of teachers".
My impression here was that this involved classroom teachers, teachers of academic subjects, and not piano teachers. I may be wrong.

Yes I feel your isolation of the two is unfounded for.

Originally Posted by keystring

Quote
- Negligent supporter:
Simply these teachers neglect to give students feedback and correctives. They are usually satisfied that they are able to explain subjects the first time and the students will absorb it all. After explaining or demonstrating they fail to check that the student has really understood the lesson. They do not allow much room if at all for questioning from the student during the lesson so there is little feedback and correctives being used.

Thinking that "explained / demonstrated once - it's understood" - yes, that can be a failing.

However, in a piano setting, aren't you finding out what the student has understood by observing how they play after the demonstration/explanation?

Well these are examples of what not to do, so of course you may find objection into actually doing these kind of things. A negligent supporter will just demonstrate the correct manner and if the student says that they understand that is good enough for them, they don't test out whether the student really knows or not.

Originally Posted by keystring

Quote
- Dilatory grader:
These teachers are so slow in assessing and returning results to students that the results and comments are of little help as feedback. Routine work tasks are rarely assessed on time and the students have to wait for knowledge of results on their learning process. Feedback is always so late that the students are unable to take advantage of the information when it is provided.


Does this occur in a piano teaching setting? "Assessing and returning results" sounds like classroom, academics, homework, study. In a private lesson, can you have a "dilatory grader"? Do you not have feedback during the lesson each time, maybe multiple times in a lesson.

Can "dilatory grading" happen in piano lessons?

It sure can happen in piano lessons. You can give theory worksheets that are not reviewed early enough, you can also set them pieces to study and move onto something else without checking whether the work you set them in those pieces was done correctly or not until much later down the track when the student no longer is studying that piece in detail. You can set weekly goals for pieces and then not check if they were met or done appropriately during the next lesson.


Originally Posted by keystring

Quote
- Feckless diagnostician and poor provider of correctives:
Unable to give appropriate correctives because of inadequate knowledge of the students learning problems. They do not attend to the details of the students responses and often fail to diagnose gaps in the students understanding of the subject matter. They are thus unable to provide the required correctives that will help students overcome their problems, or they are reluctant to modify their teaching methods so their corrective instruction can become effective.


This one probably applies. It goes with what I wrote about:
- see your student (know how to observe)
- have the knowledge to impart in the first place, and the teaching skills to do so.

That's what I seen in those lists.

This hits at the heart of my "Always build up never break down", you need to get to know your student personally.


"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: PianoStudent88] #2847241
05/10/19 11:36 PM
05/10/19 11:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Lostinidlewonder Offline OP
Full Member
Lostinidlewonder  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 184
West Australia
Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
LostinidleWonder, I am particularly struck in your recent posts by what you say about assigning tasks that a student can succeed at — just as they are, not as some idealized perfect-student version of themselves. I also like how you talk about repertoire and having an awareness of the kinds of skills each piece can be used to teach.

I’m intrigued by your 100+ pieces approach.

Thanks pianostudent88. The 100 piece approach is an excellent way to develop practice craft and forces teachers to give pieces which are easy for the students, this requires that you know closely exactly how your student functions. To be able to do works which you can succeed at in quick time is empowering for students and it is a very nice environment to build skills up without being slowed down by by frustrations. Of course we must ensure that it is not totally easy sailing there does have to be a little bit of challenge here and there but not so much so that it slows them down, they have to complete their pieces fast that is key to this method of building up practice craft. It also encourages reading skills and not so much memory work though of course good reading skills is a uses memory (eg: observing patterns that has been done many times before). If we are to memorize everything then doing this kind of work is not possible in almost all cases.


"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all"
Re: Always build up, never break down. [Re: Lostinidlewonder] #2847251
05/11/19 01:59 AM
05/11/19 01:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,153
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,153
Canada
Perhaps one of the piano teachers here can explain the difference between leading a high school discussion, and teaching piano playing to a young child, and why there might be a difference. I won't say I haven't succeeded in doing so because I didn't try, as it seemed a given, but I might have been wrong.

Quote
Keystring I have responded to a number of your questions in this thread already and got no response back...

I haven't as a rule asked questions, though there might have been one or two here there. For those with responses, if comprehensible, I probably did respond. But generally I wrote statements and ideas. They were not questions. My last post did not consist of questions. In a discussion forum, it is usually a matter of exchange of ideas.

In the responses to those lists that I explored, some of the teachers here may have thoughts. I am short on time at present.

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