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Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: Minicoop] #2383612
02/07/15 11:14 PM
02/07/15 11:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,906
guess where in CA and WA
laguna_greg Offline
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,906
guess where in CA and WA
I think it depends entirely on the room, the instrument, and what you're doing with it/them.

My living room is quite large and resonant, with a small but noticeable echo. It's perfect to sing in but not so good for the piano alone. My M&H AA has a really big sound despite it's comparatively small size, so it usually works better for everyone if the piano is all-the-way closed. It sounds very beautiful this way. I usually practice on it closed up as it has much more definition in that very lively room.

When I work with singers, the piano is all-the-way closed unless they are professionals with enormous voices. Then I open it to half-stick, or the balance will be off.

For recording, the piano is all the way open, the string cover removed, and moved more to the center of the room.

For teaching, I keep it all closed up. It's just better to make students work a little harder than not.

For chamber music, I have to open it when playing with two or more other instruments if only out of self defense.

I've had a couple of musical events in the house that brought in more than 50 people. It's amazing just how much sound those unmoving bags of water will soak up, so I open the lid often at half-stick just to get some projection.


Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/greg-dempster/34/325/6b9/ (my day job)
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
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Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: Minicoop] #2383736
02/08/15 12:33 PM
02/08/15 12:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,087
J
joe80 Offline
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joe80  Offline
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J

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,087
unmoving bags of water.... hilarious

Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: Minicoop] #2846370
05/08/19 09:57 AM
05/08/19 09:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 106
UK
J
Jt2nd Offline
Full Member
Jt2nd  Offline
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J

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 106
UK
I read half way through so-- Dust , Cats ,Heavy Lids and Going Deaf with Scales .
I now have to look up best vaccuum cleaners to keep the sound board clean .

Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: Minicoop] #2846386
05/08/19 10:33 AM
05/08/19 10:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11
J.D. Ford Offline
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J.D. Ford  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11
I normally tell clients it's completely up to them. If the lid is propped open it's going to cause more resonance to come from the sound board. If the lid is closed it's going to be quieter. I do always tell people to take into account the acoustics of the room. The size of the room, the material of the flooring, the height of the ceilings and any other furniture that might absorb sound in the room.

I also always point out that the tone and sound it will seem different from different locations in the room. So wherever guest might be sitting on furniture I suggest sitting there while the piano is being played.

Hope that helps, JD

Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: Minicoop] #2846432
05/08/19 12:04 PM
05/08/19 12:04 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,977
Florida
dogperson Offline
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dogperson  Offline
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,977
Florida
I always have the lid up. When I bought my piano, the lid had been closed for years but the piano was still full of dust, so I decided that I would keep it up as I preferred and deal with the dust. I bought a set of tools needed to clean the inside of a piano. The dust adheres to the end, and then a use a hand held vacuum cleaner to remove the dust from the tool.

My cat jumped inside only once, satisfied his curiosity, and has stayed out

I don’t remember the name of the set that I ordered. Probably one of the techs here can provide the information
My tech Will also clean it for an extra fee.

Last edited by dogperson; 05/08/19 12:07 PM.

"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: Minicoop] #2846503
05/08/19 03:22 PM
05/08/19 03:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,156
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,156
New Hampshire
I'm not going to read 3 pages of posts here. In case it was not mentioned, the lid can go up for playing, but should otherwise always be down. If it is up 24/7 (ESP on the short stick) you WILL warp the lid.

I have seen lids so warped they will no longer sit anywhere near flat, and also impossible to fully close anymore.

Dust till get in whether the lid is up or down.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: Minicoop] #2846541
05/08/19 06:19 PM
05/08/19 06:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,371
Georgia, USA
Rickster Offline
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Georgia, USA
Originally Posted by P W Grey
I'm not going to read 3 pages of posts here. In case it was not mentioned, the lid can go up for playing, but should otherwise always be down. If it is up 24/7 (ESP on the short stick) you WILL warp the lid.

I have seen lids so warped they will no longer sit anywhere near flat, and also impossible to fully close anymore.

Dust till get in whether the lid is up or down.

Pwg

A local Church where I was a member for many years, (met my wife there and we got married there) has a small Young Chang baby grand, 5 feet or so. It sounds and plays nice to be so small, but they keep the lid up and on the short stick. You don't need to close the lid to see the warpage, but is easy to see and is warped pretty badly. It doesn't seem to bother the pastor and congregation, so I guess it doesn't matter, if it doesn't bother them.

But you are absolutely right, Peter. The lid will warp if kept on the short stick especially for long periods of time I open the lid on full stick sometimes and close the lid with fly-lid open sometimes, depending on my mood. The dust doesn't bother me as much as it used to. Same way the warped lid on that Young Chang doesn't bother the folks at the small country Church, I suppose. smile

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: ando] #2846561
05/08/19 07:13 PM
05/08/19 07:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,794
The Heart of Screenland
K
KurtZ Offline
1000 Post Club Member
KurtZ  Offline
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K

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,794
The Heart of Screenland
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by jdw


Ok, I get Hierarchical Data Format, Human Development Fund, and Housing Development Fund. Thanks! (Actually I had googled it already.)

Well, ok, eventually you get to the high density fiberboard. But it's a pretty long way down.


Context, my friend, context. You must have a heck of a time with Google searches. You didn't pick anyone up for mentioning the word MDF - which is mentioned on this forum all the time.


I know it's a zombie thread but here I go on general principle. The Forum is not just for insiders and long time members nor will all members have Ando's clearly extensive experience with construction sheet goods. Offering as much clarity as we can manage as writers is just good manners towards the reader.

Relevant citations:

APA style manual:

"Some abbreviations may not be in the dictionary but appear frequently in the journal for which you are writing. Although probably well understood by many readers, these abbreviations should still be explained when first used."

And from the MLA Style Manual:

"In text, spell out most initialisms and acronyms the first time they appear, followed by the initialism or acronym in parentheses; use the initialism or acronym alone thereafter. "


**********************************************************************************************************
Co-owner (by marriage) and part time customer service rep at an electronic musical equipment repair shop.
Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: Minicoop] #2846566
05/08/19 07:55 PM
05/08/19 07:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,037
London
D
David-G Offline
2000 Post Club Member
David-G  Offline
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D

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,037
London
An initialism is an entirely new concept to me. I definitely haven't come across one of those before.

Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: Minicoop] #2846788
05/09/19 12:45 PM
05/09/19 12:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 38
A
astrotoy Offline
Silver Supporter until Feb 1 2020
astrotoy  Offline
Silver Supporter until Feb 1 2020

A

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 38
We keep both our grands lids closed normally. However, for special occasions we open the pianos up. When we had Jon Nakamatsu play in late April (the Rach 2 with accompanist Chris Salocks), I had set the two piano lids up in lower open position, knowing the dynamic range reached by professional pianists. Jon started by trying out the piano (he was playing our Bosie 225) and very quickly decided that he preferred the lid all the way open. I asked him why, and he said that with the lid partly down, the sound was focusing toward him too much and overwhelming him, and the lid fully up was much better, with the sound going out into the room. He also raised the lid of the Yamaha which Chris would play, since he said otherwise, the Bosie with the lid up would drown out the sound of Yamaha playing the piano reduction of the orchestra.


Boesendorfer 225 (1985)
Yamaha S400E (predecessor to CF4) Disklavier (1992)
Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: jazzyprof] #2846819
05/09/19 03:08 PM
05/09/19 03:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,067
🎹
Retsacnal Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
Retsacnal  Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,067
🎹
Originally Posted by jazzyprof
Originally Posted by AJF
Not to be a smart ass, but do we need to have a thread like this every three months on piano world?

Actually we do...since I haven't yet answered the query. grin

Best thing I've read all day! thumb
And why I have otherwise not answered. wink


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: Minicoop] #2846846
05/09/19 05:00 PM
05/09/19 05:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 53
J
Jack Knuckle Offline
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Jack Knuckle  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 53
How much of an issue is warping and does it depend on the material the lid is made of (solid wood versus MDF for instance)? Reading this thread has got me paranoid now; I'm very precious about touching anything (other than the keys) of my Bechstein Model V and the lid is so heavy, I'm fearful I might drop it if I raised and lowered it for each practice session. So it just stays up all the time, which makes the piano stand out even more in the room. I'm happy with it, but will I still be happy with that arrangement in a few years' time if the lid starts to warp under its own weight?

As the piano is a rebuild and coated in glossy black polyester I have no idea if the lid is original or not ( if new, I expect it would be made from MDF). Is there any way of finding out?

Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: Minicoop] #2846859
05/09/19 06:14 PM
05/09/19 06:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,371
Georgia, USA
Rickster Offline
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Rickster  Offline
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Georgia, USA
Originally Posted by Jack Knuckle
How much of an issue is warping and does it depend on the material the lid is made of (solid wood versus MDF for instance)? Reading this thread has got me paranoid now; I'm very precious about touching anything (other than the keys) of my Bechstein Model V and the lid is so heavy, I'm fearful I might drop it if I raised and lowered it for each practice session. So it just stays up all the time, which makes the piano stand out even more in the room. I'm happy with it, but will I still be happy with that arrangement in a few years' time if the lid starts to warp under its own weight?

As the piano is a rebuild and coated in glossy black polyester I have no idea if the lid is original or not ( if new, I expect it would be made from MDF). Is there any way of finding out?

It's easy to tell if your grand piano lid is MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard) or the higher quality veneered plywood; the MDF will be heavier than the veneered plywood. My Baldwin R (5'8") has a relatively light lid. In fact, I've left the lid up on the tall stick on the Baldwin R for months and months. When I saw this thread had been resurrected, I checked the lid on the Baldwin R and it is as straight as an arrow; no warpage whatsoever.

The lid on my Howard/Kawai 550 (5'10") is also lighter and is made of the higher quality veneered plywood. The lid on my Yamaha C7 is fairly heavy but I figure that is due to the fact the it is just a big lid; the piano is 7'4". That is a lot of lid! I doubt it is MDF, but it too is straight as an arrow.

I've seen other grand pianos at just over 5 feet with a very heavy lid, which led me to believe it was MDF.

However, I'm no pro at determining whether a piano lid is MDF or not. But the weight is a sure indicator, in my opinion.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: Minicoop] #2846895
05/09/19 10:01 PM
05/09/19 10:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,156
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Offline
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P

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,156
New Hampshire
Whatever it is, whenever I am asked about the matter, I always recommend lid down when not playing. Just to be safe.

BTW, there's a device that will practically lift the lid for you. Can't remember the name presently, but it looks over the spine and hydraulically assists the lift. Great device.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: Rickster] #2846910
05/09/19 11:49 PM
05/09/19 11:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 765
Wisconsin, USA
L
Lakeviewsteve Offline
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Lakeviewsteve  Offline
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L

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 765
Wisconsin, USA
Originally Posted by Rickster
Originally Posted by P W Grey
I'm not going to read 3 pages of posts here. In case it was not mentioned, the lid can go up for playing, but should otherwise always be down. If it is up 24/7 (ESP on the short stick) you WILL warp the lid.

I have seen lids so warped they will no longer sit anywhere near flat, and also impossible to fully close anymore.

Dust till get in whether the lid is up or down.

Pwg

A local Church where I was a member for many years, (met my wife there and we got married there) has a small Young Chang baby grand, 5 feet or so. It sounds and plays nice to be so small, but they keep the lid up and on the short stick. You don't need to close the lid to see the warpage, but is easy to see and is warped pretty badly. It doesn't seem to bother the pastor and congregation, so I guess it doesn't matter, if it doesn't bother them.

But you are absolutely right, Peter. The lid will warp if kept on the short stick especially for long periods of time I open the lid on full stick sometimes and close the lid with fly-lid open sometimes, depending on my mood. The dust doesn't bother me as much as it used to. Same way the warped lid on that Young Chang doesn't bother the folks at the small country Church, I suppose. smile

Rick


My technician works on a lot of church pianos and claims they are never taken care of and have terrible lack of humidity issues in the winter. He says the same about University pianos he works on.

Not only do I keep the hood down if I'm not playing it, I have a great vinyl / felt lined cover I keep over it all the time. A technician on here recommended this and mentioned that will also help with humidity swings.

With your church leaving the hood up all the time it sounds like it isn't well taken care of. Is that the case?

Last edited by Lakeviewsteve; 05/09/19 11:51 PM.

Bösendorfer 170
Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: P W Grey] #2846911
05/09/19 11:52 PM
05/09/19 11:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,669
Hobart, Australia
A
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
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A

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,669
Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Whatever it is, whenever I am asked about the matter, I always recommend lid down when not playing. Just to be safe.

BTW, there's a device that will practically lift the lid for you. Can't remember the name presently, but it looks over the spine and hydraulically assists the lift. Great device.

Pwg

Most of the Hailun grands come with this device from the factory. It's incredibly easy to use. All new grands should come with this device.

Re: Grand Piano Lid Open or Closed? [Re: Rickster] #2846941
05/10/19 05:44 AM
05/10/19 05:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 162
Hawai'i Island
B
BigIslandGuy Online content
Full Member
BigIslandGuy  Online Content
Full Member
B

Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 162
Hawai'i Island
Originally Posted by Rickster
Originally Posted by Jack Knuckle
How much of an issue is warping and does it depend on the material the lid is made of (solid wood versus MDF for instance)? Reading this thread has got me paranoid now; I'm very precious about touching anything (other than the keys) of my Bechstein Model V and the lid is so heavy, I'm fearful I might drop it if I raised and lowered it for each practice session. So it just stays up all the time, which makes the piano stand out even more in the room. I'm happy with it, but will I still be happy with that arrangement in a few years' time if the lid starts to warp under its own weight?

As the piano is a rebuild and coated in glossy black polyester I have no idea if the lid is original or not ( if new, I expect it would be made from MDF). Is there any way of finding out?

It's easy to tell if your grand piano lid is MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard) or the higher quality veneered plywood; the MDF will be heavier than the veneered plywood. My Baldwin R (5'8") has a relatively light lid. In fact, I've left the lid up on the tall stick on the Baldwin R for months and months. When I saw this thread had been resurrected, I checked the lid on the Baldwin R and it is as straight as an arrow; no warpage whatsoever.

The lid on my Howard/Kawai 550 (5'10") is also lighter and is made of the higher quality veneered plywood. The lid on my Yamaha C7 is fairly heavy but I figure that is due to the fact the it is just a big lid; the piano is 7'4". That is a lot of lid! I doubt it is MDF, but it too is straight as an arrow.

I've seen other grand pianos at just over 5 feet with a very heavy lid, which led me to believe it was MDF.

However, I'm no pro at determining whether a piano lid is MDF or not. But the weight is a sure indicator, in my opinion.

Rick

Just goes to show that if I pay attention, I can learn something every day. I was kind of wondering why my little 5'3" Story & Clark's lid was a good bit heavier than the lid on the near 7' Steinway I replaced it with. Fortunately, I almost never left the lid at half-stick, so when the Story & Clark was shipped out, the lid was still nice and flat.

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