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Well I said that feedback can be done in many ways, this includes reversing the roles of who gives the feedback. It is a known technique to provoke feedback from your students to get them to think then reflect back what you think about that with a response to that with feedback of your own, this is to avoid it being simply a one way street. So I am not neglecting the comment at all but offering the ways in which it can occur from the students perspective also which is a critical point of this thread if one is to know how a student works as to build them up appropriately and not just teach over the top of their individuality.

As to your comment " What do you think about the concept of giving a student concrete, doable feedback - guiding as to what to do - as opposed to telling a student what she did wrong and must not do? This was also my concept that I put forth."

Throughout this entire thread I have described ways in which we present our lesson to our student, so you will not get me summarizing everything I said, you might want to read through everything I wrote. I may elaborate on correctives as such however:

When we are giving a lesson to a student and assessing their work we need to take care as to how we provide the students feedback and corrective measures to improve their knowledge/capability. I would like to briefly discuss a number of inappropriate examples that should be avoided thus perhaps you can gain insight into what to do.

- Negligent supporter:
Simply these teachers neglect to give students feedback and correctives. They are usually satisfied that they are able to explain subjects the first time and the students will absorb it all. After explaining or demonstrating they fail to check that the student has really understood the lesson. They do not allow much room if at all for questioning from the student during the lesson so there is little feedback and correctives being used.

- Negative contributor:
These kind of teachers provide a lot of feedback but it is always of the negative kind. They often say things like "students need to know where they make mistakes" and spend a great deal of time telling them what errors they have made. The subject matter they present is often too difficult for the student and/or their explanations and demonstrations are inadequate (eg: not communicate at the level of the students comprehension), and so they have to spend a great deal of time giving negative feedback.

- Dilatory grader:
These teachers are so slow in assessing and returning results to students that the results and comments are of little help as feedback. Routine work tasks are rarely assessed on time and the students have to wait for knowledge of results on their learning process. Feedback is always so late that the students are unable to take advantage of the information when it is provided .

- Feckless diagnostician and poor provider of correctives:
Unable to give appropriate correctives because of inadequate knowledge of the students learning problems. They do not attend to the details of the students responses and often fail to diagnose gaps in the students understanding of the subject matter. They are thus unable to provide the required correctives that will help students overcome their problems, or they are reluctant to modify their teaching methods so their corrective instruction can become effective.

[Feedback and Correctives from "Teaching Principles and Practice" Peter G. Cole + Lorna K.S Chan]

I am a piano student, not a piano teacher. However I have other topics I teach occasionally and I am very interested in ideas about teaching.

LostinidleWonder, I found your description of entering into the point of view of your autistic student to be very moving.

I found your description of ways of thinking/processing to be useful to me, because I recognized a lot about myself in the description of an abstract thinker. It leads me to think about trying to escape my usual abstract filter in certain activities I do, and see what happens if I try to immerse myself in the sensation of the experience instead.

Oh how I would love to insert a whole bunch more adjectives in front of the word "thread..."

LostinidleWonder, I also want to thank you for posting the link to the PianoStreet thread Four Thinking Styles of Perception/Process where I have found a lot to reflect on, from many angles, about teaching and learning

Right turn, Clyde.

Teaching is a solitary activity. It is extremely rare to observe a teacher in the natural habitat.

How, then, can we know anything about what they do so badly?

We have evidence from people who accept transfer students with deficiencies that something went wrong. it isn't necessarily true that anything being discussed here was involved.

I wonder if the OP is speaking from personal experience about the mistakes he himself made as a teacher, and what he's learned from them. If so, some transparency about that would be welcome.

Yeah, but could he possibly have made ALL those mistakes? In just 25 years of teaching?

My impression from his previous posts is that he's probably a pretty decent teacher.

Probably not all of those mistakes.

And, yes, he may have heard some stories from transfer students about their previous teachers' approaches.

But what he himself has witnessed with his own eyes, either as the student or the teacher in the teacher-student relationship, would probably give him the most knowledge about what to do or not do as a teacher.

I think -- the OP can correct me if I'm wrong -- that analyzing his own teaching mistakes may have been more the thing that caused him to learn what he did, and become a better teacher for it. I say that because of his reaction to one of your posts. You said:



and he responded:



That response makes me question now whether he received bad or abusive instruction, or witnessed anyone else receiving such from another teacher. He seemed to be laughing at your response. (Your response, IMO, being a kind, thoughtful, compassionate one, acknowledging that there could be something deeply personal behind what he's writing here.)

I don't think he'd ridicule your post like that if he had been on the receiving end of damaging teaching.

He learned what he learned from somewhere, but despite everything he's written on this thread, it isn't clear how he's come to the conclusions he has.

All I know is that one's own experience can be a mighty fine teacher.

I could say I am shocked that this thread is still going but I'm not, lol.

Only 346 posts to go to break the record set 10 years ago for longest thread in Piano Teachers Forum. What do you say? Shall we make a run for it?

If measured by words/post I'm sure this thread would already be a contender.

I think posts like the OP are wasted on this forum where many (not all) teachers seem to come to vent their frustrations only or seek validation to their personal image as great teachers who know everything, have nothing to learn and who are forced to teach students that simply are too lazy, too stubborn or too stupid to learn...or have uncooperative parents...or whatever. The idea that there may be ways that might get better results with challenging students or that research in human fields could bring any useful new knowledge to teaching does not fit well with this kind of mindset.

On the other hand intelligent mature discussions is not what Internet forums are known for, so posting such essays will inevitably lead into trashing and cynicism.

What a useless contribution Andamento, this kind of kibitizing on the sidelines really highlights a bad attitude towards information sharing on pianoworld.

People who just complain and cry on the sidelines don't really make themselves look any better and their small group of friends who join in, really it a marginalized minority who are crying out loud, there are many more people seriously reading threads.


Are we are not to trust what our students tell us or when we read their journal and see the exact writing from their previous teacher does this not give us insight into their past?


There is a lot to discuss ignoring the irrelevant posts by a few loud people who are QQ everywhere because they don't know how to constructively contribute and add to useful knowledge, they just want to attempt to take away even though their efforts are rather puny.



Well TimR I don't really need your "probable" thumbs up as much as I don't need your vehmented thumbs down. Just discuss the issues, contribute and add knowledge that is the purpose.


We? We certainly don't need irrelevant sideline kibitz from numberous unconstructive replies, that is a real shame and doesn't show that these few loud minorities are very sharing in knowledge but rather voicing marginalized judgement. If you think this kind of activity makes ones reputation here look any better I think you may need to reevaluate that type of contribution because it clearly isn't very useful to the majority of others. Continue if you have to it really makes no difference to me though I do appreciate the bumping up of my threads :P

That is what is good about forums that we can share knowledge and help others grow as well as get various perspectives from others experiences. That particular autistic student I taught was among the lowest functioning student I had ever come across in all my teaching experience and will forever stick in my mind in a positive sense. She taught me such a great deal as I described in that post and I think those kind of students will forever mark your teaching soul and change you. Where others might find dificult students are mere failures and are not worthy of our teaching regieme, really we should be thinking if a student is failing it is our problem.

One valuable part of my teaching is to deal with problem cases, those who are not doing well. You often find if they fail at activities in piano terribly they also fail in other aspects of their education, as a teacher we really are often teaching tools that are greater than our subject sometimes. One issue that I am careful to assess is whether a student is being honest with themselves and with others, this to me is as problematic as dealing with autistic students but in a different manner, the building up of these students is just as difficult I feel and a long term procedure but it can be done.

A student being completely honest in terms of how much work they put into their piano every week is something I feel teachers can miss out on. Many younger kids like to tell me they practice every day but occasionally I don't believe it, they like to persuade me that they have given it a good effort for the week and some even in the past they have pretended to be not as skilled so they don't have to get through as much work! The level of dishonesty someone has with themselves really does effect a lot in their life.

I used to also tutor maths and science to high school students in my late teens and early 20s and first noticed this pattern of not being honest with oneself especially with those who were struggling with their marks. They like to make people believe they are studying hours every day but they are being so dishonest to themselves, so long they can get others to believe that they are trying it is good enough, they really don't ask themselves if they believe it sincerely. I would start saying to my students "You don't have to convince me! You need to be really honest with yourself it is your future not mine!" I was a bit harsh back then now I like to think I am a little more clever in trying to make them more disciplined beasts.

When I try and encourage my students who progress very slowly to be more honest with themselves I set a smaller amount of work for them, small enough that success should not require too much effort (sometimes I will lower my expectations considerably, the aim is to give them an amount they cannot fail with minimal daily effort though I do not tell them that!). We ensured in the lesson they knew exactly how to practice the passage (observed them practice in the lesson without any input from myself for that proof) then set them a challenge to do this practice routine every single day x amount of times (not minute/hour time but rather successful practice routines of what was set).

I highlight to these students that if practice is done correctly then the time required is very short, but if they practice bad then the time will increase. Some youngsters I will challenge them to play the phrase x times with no mistakes and if there is a mistake the count must go back to 0, this is one good technique they can use while practice alone to monitor their control.

When I started teaching piano I would set my expectations too high for all my students but this is not a good idea for those who struggle with daily practice and especially detrimental for those who are used to failure (eg: low grades at school). It is much more encouraging when they can gain confidence that they can complete tasks successfully on their own, so it becomes a duty of a teacher of these students to give small projects that they shouldn't fail.

How we increase the workload of these students over time needs to be done very carefully because demoralizing them with failure really has a roll on effect. If they fail it often makes them want to give up and then they regress in their motivation to practice on their own. I found that often these students are not really requiring to get better at the piano as such but better at their approach to studying something with discipline. This has an effect on their schooling and even their daily life. I have even asked some of my students to make their bed every day instead of expecting their mum to do it, it is a simple action to include into their daily habit and trains their discipline. I have even asked one student to do a single star jump every morning when they wake up lol. Something very simple that requires them to think about making a change in their daily habits can train their brains to remember to do a duty every day.

Piano thus has becomes a device to teach discipline rather than musical capability with some of my students and especially those who have problems being honest with themselves or severely lack confidence in themselves. Of course we improve their musicality and technical ability but the real lesson for them is to know they can be disciplined beasts and be honest about that!

I teach a whole range of students from all levels though the frustrations with being honest with ones self does tend to mostly surround beginners/intermediates (thought even advanced students can be fooling themselves in many ways, for example I've had a number of students who have finished all exam grade and yet are not honest with themselves in terms of their sight reading ability, they prefer to ignore it or make excuses why they can't or that they don't feel they even need to improve etc, though I see this putting up of barriers as not being honest with oneself!)

Even with my more advanced students I am still pushing them to work on their discipline but it is at a different level. They practice daily no problem but what about monitoring their goal setting, work ethic, motivation, vision for the future. Goal/dream setting, motivation etc is something that exists even in those who are competent pianists but most of them already know of it and it is the beginners who neglect it completely without honestly giving it a shot!


I don't necessarily have to see the effect of my teaching sometimes I don't have lessons with students long enough to see the long term effect I had with them. The good seeds (and unfortunately the bad ones, yes I remember the bad teachers I had and will never emulate them) of our teaching can have have the larger effect many years down the track. A number of years ago I got a message from one of my students I had taught almost 20 years ago when he was a 5 year old child. I rememberd him well and in our lessons we just wanted him to enjoy piano and find his love for it, he was talented but I always reminded him that the teacher can't make him better he has to do most of the work on his own and I will make sure he stays on track.

I remember the last piece we worked on was a pretty full on version of the Starwars Title theme which he was infatuated with, large chords for a young boy but he managed it all, when I caught up him again years later he played for me Liszt's Mephisto Waltz no 1 and Un Sospiro and Shubert famous Impromptu no3. Was so impressed with his progress and sound, but was very flattered he said it was the love for piano that I taught him at the start that fueled his desire to go further and further. Sometimes we are not meant to see the full effect we have on our students, but some of them remember it even if we don't or didn't even realize it! Come to think of it there are many teachers I adore from my past who have no idea how much they actually helped me in my life even today. All of these teachers made me love knowledge and learning, they always built me up never tore me down, empowered me, had confidence in me.


I don't think people can be naturally disciplined 100% every 7 days a week. There are certainly days of inspiration where we want to do nothing else but work, then there are days were we feel like crap and just want to do nothing, we are human after all with emotions not robots. I think most is learned while you are younger, it is just a lot easier if a child is brought up with concept of discipline, not doing things only when you feel like it and accept sometimes work is not so convenient. An old dog can still learn new tricks and even adults who live a chaotic life can impose some kind of discipline in their life and then once they honestly meet with it it can make a lot of changes not only in piano but other areas of life.

Sometimes on days were I feel so unmotivated to physically play the piano I will work on other things which doesn't require me to play, such as exploring repertoire, organising my work space etc etc. So long it has something to do with my music. Sometimes just watching a movie about music, or going to art gallery, watching the symphony orchestra live, going to watch some buskers etc, all of this renews my motivational energy to do music.

Piano can be such a solitary pastime, it is actually nice to join in with groups of people who like music, meet occasionally and be a part of a community. This I have found inspired me a huge amount to learn more doing music outside of the work space (teaching and my own study) when you have a community to connect with. There are networking websites (such as https://www.meetup.com) which encourage people to meet up with others in person which I found awesome too.



I found it insightful also when I first came across it also! I think it gives us more insight into the workings of thought and gives us some tools that can help on our way to analyze the way our students work.

You have a point, the internet is like that, a minority talk very loud and band together and feel as if they are a part of a greater majority. The reality is that these people who complain on the sidelines and try to tear down knowledge are merely a marginalized few. There are a much higher % of people who do not comment on threads at all and just read, these are the people that I also am writing for since it is the majority of our audience. There are those who want to take time to read through a lot of information and learn from it or compare it to the way in which they do things themselves. That is why I write a lot so that people who do not comment in these threads perhaps have most of their queries answered. I've been on the internet far too long to allow peoples attempts at bullying hurt me at all, it is quite funny when it is dished out at me but a waste of time. It is also sad that these kind of people actually make others not want to contribute because they could not manage the bullying, I am sure people here know those that they are driven out, unfortunately for them they will not have the same effect on me :P So bring it! :P

Have a look at my responses on pianostreet you might like to see I have done some 15 years of mostly long posts :P Wow I must have written more than anyone one else in the history of the internet!!!!! lol.

Moderators, would it be possible to get a forum ONLY for piano teachers, with some sort of validation process?

I'm game! I'm sure we can find a way to further degrade this thread.

LOL, you never fail to disappoint, malkin.

Seriously, it's fine if you want to write such long posts, but there is a common thing called "TL;DR" - too long, didn't read - where you summarize in a few short sentences for those who don't wish to wade through everything. Having this is respectful of people's time and attention spans. Just a suggestion.