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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Pete14 #2846742 05/09/19 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
wait, something went wrong with my calculations. We need someone with top-notch math skills to crack this open.

I suspect this is the missing math fact to make these numbers balance.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846743 05/09/19 11:04 AM
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So, if we take the numbers at face value, what would this mean for DPs with non-grand actions?


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846747 05/09/19 11:16 AM
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For ‘regular’ DP’s the formula is $2.99+$1.59+$2.15, and somehow Roland wants $7,000 for the LX-708. cool

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846777 05/09/19 12:17 PM
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The manufacturing cost for a hybrid is only really relevant, if the price obtainable by the producer on the retail market is lower than that (in which case production and sales would come to an end). The manufacturers sell the hybrids at the price, which they believe will maximise their income after subtraction of costs. If people are willing to shell out a high price for a hybrid, the manufacturers will be happy to sell at that high price. If market interest drops off, the selling price will also drop off (unless the manufacturers are really dumb).

By the way, why would anyone assume that the hybrids are based on top-of-the-range acoustic grands? Surely they are based on bottom-of-the-barrel acoustic grands (made in Indonesia, just as the digital pianos are).

Incidentally, for price comparisons involving the N-3X, Thomann sells this for 17666 EUR, whilst they sell the entry level acoustic grands Kawai GL10 for 9699 EUR and Yamaha GB1 for 9799 EUR. In other words, you can get both of those two grands together for about 10% more than the N-3X costs. Go figure ...


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846778 05/09/19 12:21 PM
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OTOH, the N1X is manufactured in Indonesia. Since it requires some skills with acoustic piano manufacturing I'm wondering whether it's a factory that also makes some of their acoustic pianos and which ones. Certainly not their flagship pianos which are probably hand made in Japan.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
QuasiUnaFantasia #2846779 05/09/19 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Incidentally, for price comparisons involving the N-3X, Thomann sells this for 17666 EUR, whilst they sell the entry level acoustic grands Kawai GL10 for 9699 EUR and Yamaha GB1 for 9799 EUR. In other words, you can get both of those two grands together for about 10% more than the N-3X costs. Go figure ...

If I was given this selection at this point in time with a budget of 20000, I would take the N3X as neither of the other two have a silent mode. Even adding a silent mode to one of the GL10 and GB1 might not sway me, as I'd want to know how good of a silent mode it was. 95% of my piano playing is with headphones.


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846781 05/09/19 12:27 PM
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Quasi, I don’t believe the hard-core Avant-techies will take kindly to your comparing their hybrids to a bottom-of-the-barrel.... and why are you picking on Indonesia when there’s always China?

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846784 05/09/19 12:37 PM
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Right right, let me do the real math here:

Scenario one: N1X
- Cost of the piano: 6k
- Time invested: the 5 minutes from my office to the Yamaha London store + the time to try the piano and find the courage to part with a lot of cash for something I plug in the same socket as my toaster
- Hate level of neighbors: non-existent

Scenario two: GL10
- Cost of the piano: 9k (+3k from N1X, but for a real grand, a more than fair difference)
- Cost of the new house I need to buy to make it fit: 600k
- Time invested: the eons that'll take me to find a house I like and that isn't a flat or a terraced + the daily increase in commute time to Central London (if I want to fit a grand I need a bigger house. If I move closer to London, I'll need to move to a crappier area to afford that space with 600k; to keep standards, I'd need to move further out, essentially giving myself less time to play)
- Hate level of neighbors: significant
- Total effort required: full nervous breakdown

All of a sudden, an Indonesia-made, overpriced N1X becomes the best grand action I can afford both in terms of space and $$$. The only real alternative is going for a K300 Aures.

Last edited by Hecarim; 05/09/19 12:43 PM.
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846786 05/09/19 12:42 PM
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When you say ‘crappier’ area are you referring to the people that live in that area or the infrastructure embedded within that area? Surely you don’t believe that poor people are ‘crappy’? wink

P.S.

..and why are you picking on Indonesia?

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Hecarim #2846787 05/09/19 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Hecarim
Scenario two: GL10
...
- [censored]-off level of neighbors: significant
...The only real alternative is going for a K300 Aures.

I'd argue that the K300 Aures is not a useful alternative in your use-case. That is, you could certainly place one in your current home, just like I could in mine, but in your use-case, the most important features of the K300 Aures (strings) vs N1X, you wouldn't even be using much of, in order to maintain the peace with your neighbors.


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Tyrone Slothrop #2846794 05/09/19 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I'd argue that the K300 Aures is not a useful alternative in your use-case. That is, you could certainly place one in your current home, just like I could in mine, but in your use-case, the most important features of the K300 Aures (strings) vs N1X, you wouldn't even be using much of, in order to maintain the peace with your neighbors.


They won't kill me if I play like 30 mins after dinner or in a weekend afternoon - and only after I learned a piece to decent standards. I would make use of the acoustic sound, though likely for 10% of the time only. Which probably defeats the point of an acoustic.

For me it's more about the action anyway and I haven't tried the Aures yet.


Last edited by Hecarim; 05/09/19 01:17 PM.
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Pete14 #2846796 05/09/19 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Quasi, I don’t believe the hard-core Avant-techies will take kindly to your comparing their hybrids to a bottom-of-the-barrel.... and why are you picking on Indonesia when there’s always China?


I have no doubt you're right about that; I must also admit some mischievousness with my comment. smile

The reason for bringing in Indonesia is that the entry level acoustic grands are made there, and both Kawai and Yamaha manufacture dp's there.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2846797 05/09/19 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
OTOH, the N1X is manufactured in Indonesia.

Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by Pete14
and why are you picking on Indonesia when there’s always China?
The reason for bringing in Indonesia is that the entry level acoustic grands are made there, and both Kawai and Yamaha manufacture dp's there.

Well, as CyberGene points out, it seems Indonesia is already a place for hybrid manufacturing.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846849 05/09/19 05:19 PM
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I might have missed some of this thread as I am a little anxious to reply to some the misinformation proffered here.
I was at a local Kawai dealer this morning. Besides Kawai they carry several brands. Including top European brands. I specifically wanted to try the G10 and GL20. It is obvious that the action in the NV10 is, as advertised, the same used in the GL30, and the GX1. In other words, equivalent to a 5' 5" grand piano. The feel of the GL10 is not even close due to shorter key pivot points. I discussed this in length with the salesman. We played a SK-2 for comparison. Now of course I am not suggesting the NV10 action is as well regulated as an SK or even a GX. However, I am told it is the same action except the hammers are replaced by the sensor "hammers".

OT: The best baby grand in the shop (IMO) was a 5'5" Cunningham. It is build in Indonesia, then delivered to Cunningham PA for final preparation. Exceptionally beautiful cabinet, touch and sound was better than Estonia, Kawai, and used S&S's.



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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
ˆTomLCˆ #2846863 05/09/19 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
I might have missed some of this thread as I am a little anxious to reply to some the misinformation proffered here.
I was at a local Kawai dealer this morning. Besides Kawai they carry several brands. Including top European brands. I specifically wanted to try the G10 and GL20. It is obvious that the action in the NV10 is, as advertised, the same used in the GL30, and the GX1. In other words, equivalent to a 5' 5" grand piano. The feel of the GL10 is not even close due to shorter key pivot points. I discussed this in length with the salesman. We played a SK-2 for comparison. Now of course I am not suggesting the NV10 action is as well regulated as an SK or even a GX. However, I am told it is the same action except the hammers are replaced by the sensor "hammers".


1. You say that Kawai advertises that the NV10 uses the same action as the GL30 and GX1. The action on the GX1 on the GL30 must therefore GL30 be the same. Is this true?

2. You say that the "feel of the GL10 is not even close due to shorter key pivot points". The Kawai Global web page on the GL emphasizes the differences between the GL40/50 and GL10/20/30. It also emphasizes the extended keys on the GX series. However, Kawai says nothing key length differences across the GL range. Is it true that the GL10 has shorter pivot points?

3. The Kawai Global page says this: "Based on the GX series’ proven action design, Millennium III Hybrid retains the composite parts and extended key sticks of its acoustic cousin, while replacing the traditional felt hammers with individually-weighted ABS equivalents." If we read this statement literally (as it seems you are) then we must assume that the "GX series action" is exactly the same across the whole range, from the 166cm GX-1 to the 229cm GX-7.

So, can you please sustain what you have said? Or should I read your comments as just another piece of "misinformation"?

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846876 05/09/19 07:19 PM
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1: Yes, they are both 5’5” long.
2: The longer the piano, the longer the key-sticks is my understanding. The GX1 and the GL30 have the same length key-sticks. All of the GL, GX, SK, and the NV10 have “extended key sticks. I suppose compared to what they previously used.
3: No that is not what I thought I said. The longer the piano the longer the key-sticks and thus the pivot point.
Go try a GL10 and then the GL30. Compare with the NV10. The difference is noticeable. What I was referring to is that the actions are all made in Japan. However, not to infer that the plants in Indonesia produce an inferior product.

I have always thought I would prefer the GL10 to the NV10. YMMV. For me, I prefer the NV10. Made in Indonesia or Japan.



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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846886 05/09/19 08:02 PM
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Continuing the price/value discussion, I am saddened that both Yamaha and Kawai digital offering are almost exclusively made of MDF rather than wood. I suppose one could use a lot of MDF in acoustic grands, but no one does, to my knowledge.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846887 05/09/19 08:06 PM
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The Kawai CS11 is in an actual (modified) K2 cabinet. K2 is the predecessor to the current K200 44" upright.



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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846916 05/10/19 12:04 AM
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I've been wanting to look inside of this since I bought it. I like to tinker, build guns, change my own oil, etc. I feel pretty comfortable with tools and basic mechanics. Chrispy's pictures inspired me to open mine up.

The disassembly is easy. 4 screws and the top comes right off. Don't forget to disconnect the speakers from the mainboard.

Top board and speaker assembly.

[Linked Image]

Here she is naked. The fabric that is draped over the keys is fastened with an adhesive, so I left it on.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Plastic repetition lever.

[Linked Image]

Plastic jack.

[Linked Image]

Hammers from treble side.

[Linked Image]

Bass hammers.

[Linked Image]

I noticed that a piano product I purchased for cleaning had carnauba wax in it. Therefore, I decided to try putting some Meguiars wax on the piano. I already have the wax since I routinely detail my own cars.

One thing I learned is that a the clear coat on a car is more porous than the high polish finish on the N1X. Therefore, the micro layer of wax that is left on lays more on the surface compared to a car. It did coverup some of the fine surface blemishes.

It came out pretty good. It has a very "wet" look to it now and is super slick to the touch. The dust seems to glide off easier as well.

Assembled and waxed.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

My curiosity is now satisfied. Back to practicing. There are four songs in the current lesson I'm working on (Lesson 39 Duane Shinn) and it's going to take some time finish.

God Bless,
David

P.S. I did measure the pivot length and the white keys measured 9" and the black keys were 7.5"






Last edited by David B; 05/10/19 12:09 AM.

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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846927 05/10/19 01:58 AM
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Nice pics, David! smile And finally confirmed the jacks are indeed plastic.


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Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
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