2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
52 members (David B, 3x4rt, Beowulf, Craig Hair, 1957, dhull100, claburo, clothearednincompo, Brendan, 10 invisible), 420 guests, and 361 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 36 of 169 1 2 34 35 36 37 38 168 169
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846519 05/08/19 04:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,609
S
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,609
Someone on here had the action on their AG regulated.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
iLogic #2846524 05/08/19 05:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,108
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,108
Originally Posted by iLogic
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I haven’t compared them side by side but I had a NU1X for a month and now the N1X. They are all VERY noisy. My wife isn’t very happy smile


What made you sell/return the nuix?

Well, I knew about the infamous loud note issue before purchasing the piano and managed to reproduce it consistently (I even made a YouTube video to demonstrate that) and although still frustrated by it, I could live with it by adjusting my technique and somehow anticipating it. But then I also discovered that two keys in the middle of the keyboard were producing a slightly louder velocities than the neighboring keys. Yamaha sent me instructions on how to calibrate the sensors but it didn’t seem to help. At that point it was already too much for me, I was still in my grace period and N1X just became available for ordering and so I decided to upgrade. Ultimately both are good but I have better and consistent control on the N1X with no irregularities and no need to overcome deficiencies. It’s almost twice the price of NU1X but it’s totally worth it IMO.

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/08/19 05:08 PM.

My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846527 05/08/19 05:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 506
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 506
That’s a great link to the Renner site, Rich! Thanks for sharing!


Nord Grand, Kawai MP11 (v1), iMac 2017, Yamaha HS8's, Sennheiser 650, Focusrite 2i4, Pianoteq 6.4.0, Steinway Model A, Mason and Hamlin Model AA, Piano Marvel: 3C
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
spanishbuddha #2846528 05/08/19 05:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,108
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,108
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Someone on here had the action on their AG regulated.

I guess easing up on parts to lower friction is OK. However I’m not sure changing escapement distances and stuff is a very good idea especially if performed by just a piano technician who uses his experience with acoustic pianos rather than knowledge about how AvantGrand pianos work. Maybe he won’t do harm but who knows? For instance, the escapement point on the AvantGrand pianos is 1mm more (hammer travel after escapement to string) than standard pianos. The idea is to be able to position the upper sensor within region where the scanning circuitry would manage to read the value. Shortening that distance might eventually lead to missed fortissimos or missed repetitions or who knows what. I wouldn’t personally allow non-Yamaha trained technician experiment with my AG. Or maybe I’m just to OCD-ed smile

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/08/19 05:21 PM.

My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846571 05/08/19 08:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,432
Gold Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,432
Well, tech was here. As suspected I'll need the piano replaced. Will be making arrangements with the store tomorrow. The best the tech could figure is perhaps the bottom board was bad and expanded pushing out the cheek. I'm sure Yamaha will be interested in getting it back and figuring out what was wrong. Oddly enough, the tech said though he'd never seen this before, he's going next week to look at an N3X where the fallboard came off.

As a bonus, I got to take some photos while he had the top off trying to see if there was any way to get the cheek pulled in. Wasn't exactly sure what to take pictures of so it's kind of random, but maybe the first pictures of the inside of an N1X in the wild?

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Now learning: Chopin C# minor Nocturne (posth) and C minor Prelude (big chords), Mozart Sonata in C K. 545
Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Kawai ES110, Roland GO:PIANO
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Chrispy #2846647 05/09/19 03:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 771
N
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 771
Glad you're getting it replaced. Techs are famous for saying they've "never seen this issue before". Keep us updated on how things go with Classic Pianos.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Chrispy #2846666 05/09/19 06:16 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,824
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,824
Originally Posted by Chrispy
Well, tech was here. As suspected I'll need the piano replaced. Will be making arrangements with the store tomorrow. The best the tech could figure is perhaps the bottom board was bad and expanded pushing out the cheek. I'm sure Yamaha will be interested in getting it back and figuring out what was wrong. Oddly enough, the tech said though he'd never seen this before, he's going next week to look at an N3X where the fallboard came off.

As a bonus, I got to take some photos while he had the top off trying to see if there was any way to get the cheek pulled in. Wasn't exactly sure what to take pictures of so it's kind of random, but maybe the first pictures of the inside of an N1X in the wild?

Nice pics! Do let us know if the replacement piano has the same issue with your set of headphones where the headphone amp simply doesn't have enough gain for your headphones.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846679 05/09/19 07:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,958
K
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,958
I know the N1X etc. are expensive and certainly beyond a future budget of mine for the next couple of years. But looking at those photos it is clear there is so much part of their construction that is still fiddly time consuming stuff done by hand. I'm almost beginning to think they are cheap for what they are.

Clearly these things are still not being sold in large enough numbers to invest in more automated manufacturing, including the design of the pianos to be more easily built by automated manufacturing.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
KevinM #2846695 05/09/19 08:42 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,824
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,824
Originally Posted by KevinM
I know the N1X etc. are expensive and certainly beyond a future budget of mine for the next couple of years. But looking at those photos it is clear there is so much part of their construction that is still fiddly time consuming stuff done by hand. I'm almost beginning to think they are cheap for what they are.

Clearly these things are still not being sold in large enough numbers to invest in more automated manufacturing, including the design of the pianos to be more easily built by automated manufacturing.

Ironic as for acoustical piano, more handcraft and less automated manufacturing is considered good smile I'm waiting for the day when I'll be able to print a piano out of my 3D printer smile


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846700 05/09/19 08:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,114
P
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,114
I’m beginning to think that they are expensive for what they are. There’s nothing but an entry-level action and some circuit boards/cables in there, yet they cost as much as an acoustic.
How much do you think it costs to build/implement the iron plate, soundboard, strings, pins, felt hammers, real wood cabinet, etc..? None of this is present in a hybrid. All I see is an action, lots of empty space and some cables. Of course that’s fine for the intended goal, by it sure does not translate well into the pricing.
Don’t get me wrong, I like these hybrids, but I don’t agree with the prices. A forum member was actually quoted more for an N3X than a Yamaha acoustic baby grand (I don’t remember the model). Still, my guess is that -quirks and all- the acoustic would sweep the floor with the N3X; incidentally, the most grossly over-priced hybrid ever.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Pete14 #2846701 05/09/19 09:00 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,824
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,824
Originally Posted by Pete14
How much do you think it costs to build/implement the iron plate, soundboard, strings, pins, felt hammers, real wood cabinet, etc..? None of this is present in a hybrid. All I see is an action, lots of empty space and some cables. Of course that’s fine for the intended goal, by it sure does not translate well into the pricing.

Could you be underestimating the price of a piano action, itself? For example, the NV10 using a Millennium III action. If I had a real Kawai acoustical grand and needed to replace its Millennium III action, how much would buying the replacement action alone cost, not including labor? I suspect that price is well into 4 figures.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846703 05/09/19 09:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,114
P
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,114
I’m speculating, but I don’t believe that the Millennium in the NV10 is identical to the one used in the Shigeru concert grand as is implied. The action in the NV10 might share a similar design and plastic -carbon fiber- parts, but my gut tells me that it does not get the kind of love from expert technicians that the Shigeru action gets. At best it’s a ‘Chinese’ replica of the real thing. wink
Once again, I’m speculating.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Pete14 #2846706 05/09/19 09:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,928
G
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,928
Originally Posted by Pete14
At best it’s a ‘Chinese’ replica of the real thing. wink
Once again, I’m speculating.

Well, Kawai would be engaged in false advertising and in violation of export/trade laws then, as it says "Kawai Action--Made in Japan" right on the action rail!

Kawai James for Prison 2020!!


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Pete14 #2846707 05/09/19 09:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,824
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,824
Originally Posted by Pete14
I’m speculating, but I don’t believe that the Millennium in the NV10 is identical to the one used in the Shigeru concert grand as is implied. The action in the NV10 might share a similar design and plastic -carbon fiber- parts, but my gut tells me that it does not get the kind of love from expert technicians that the Shigeru action gets. At best it’s a ‘Chinese’ replica of the real thing. wink
Once again, I’m speculating.

The Shigeru is advertised as completely handbuilt. I assumed that included the piano action. Does it actually use a Millennium III action?


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846709 05/09/19 09:23 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,108
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,108
TBH, I also thought (and still think) current hybrids are overpriced which was why I started my DIY hybrid in the first place. On the other hand these are niche instruments.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Gombessa #2846711 05/09/19 09:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,114
P
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,114
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Pete14
At best it’s a ‘Chinese’ replica of the real thing. wink
Once again, I’m speculating.

Well, Kawai would be engaged in false advertising and in violation of export/trade laws then, as it says "Kawai Action--Made in Japan" right on the action rail!

Kawai James for Prison 2020!!


Let’s start proceedings to have James impeached! laugh

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2846714 05/09/19 09:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,928
G
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,928
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

The Shigeru is advertised as completely handbuilt. I assumed that included the piano action. Does it actually use a Millennium III action?


C'mon Tyrone, your better than that! You can go to Kawai Japan's page for the SK pianos and look at the specs here: http://www.kawai-global.com/product/c/grandpianos/shigeru-kawai/

All of them, including the SK-EX, specify the action is the Millennium III. What that means we can split hairs about, but the claim is right here. Why would Kawai "downplay" their most prestigious instrument?

Originally Posted by CyberGene
TBH, I also thought (and still think) current hybrids are overpriced which was why I started my DIY hybrid in the first place. On the other hand these are niche instruments.


CyberGene, didn't you try to source a new Chinese grand action for your project? How much were they asking (with volume discount)?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Gombessa #2846718 05/09/19 09:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,108
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,108
Originally Posted by Gombessa
CyberGene, didn't you try to source a new Chinese grand action for your project? How much were they asking (with volume discount)?

Well, they never quoted me. The said I should order at least 50 for us to start talks smile Which I may eventually do some day... Anyway, I've seen brand new Chinese grands costing as low as $3000. They are probably cr*p but in any case that's the price for entire grand pianos with a cabinet, action, soundboard, iron frame, strings... Even if the action might not be very good it's still an action, right. So I would assume an action alone won't cost more than $1500. And that's reasonable after all. These are just some wooden parts, cut by CNC. Even if all that needs to be manually assembled, it would still not take more than a few man-hours total IMO.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846738 05/09/19 10:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,928
G
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,928
$1500 for a "cr*p action" in volume isn't a bad estimate, IMO. In any case, it supports the proposition that we're well into the 4-figure arena, and previously quoted figures of $2-4k for a...non-cr*p(?) action aren't out of line at all. I'm sure some actions go higher. As to whether that speaks to an inflated pricing for hybrids I simply cannot say.

FWIW, having seen grand actions at work, I think you may be underestimating the manual labor needed to supplement all those mass-CNC'd parts with glue, felts and leather to the point where all keys operate as they should, even excluding the bespoke regulation inherent in premiere concert grands.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846741 05/09/19 10:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,114
P
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,114
So, if CG can get an action for about $1,500 (for the sake of argument), that means that it probably costs about half that for the manufacturer to build it (they have to make a profit, after all).
That leaves us at about $750.00 for the manufacturing costs of the NV10 action; add some speakers ($400), and a mock cabinet (500), and we end up at $11,000 street price....... wait, something went wrong with my calculations. We need someone with top-notch math skills to crack this open.
Are hybrids more than the sum of their parts, or are they more than the sum of $750+400+500?

P.S.

This applies to the AvantGrand as well.

Page 36 of 169 1 2 34 35 36 37 38 168 169

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our October 2020 Free Piano Newsletter is Here!
---------------------
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Just got a 1985 Baldwin L - thanks!
by goodloe - 10/22/20 11:35 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics202,356
Posts3,016,274
Members98,986
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4