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frustrated and new to forum #2846233
05/07/19 08:50 PM
05/07/19 08:50 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 16
Florence, MT
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PatG Offline OP
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Florence, MT
Thanks for adding me to the forum.

Hello, I am a 68 year old female taking piano lessons for 16 months now. I took about a year of lessons as a younger adult 40 years ago. I've been working on the Sonatina OP 36, No. 3 by Clementi for six months now. I can play the first two pages pretty well and have been learning pages 3-4. I don't play it as fast as it is written, but that's OK. I'm hoping that will come with experience, plus my hands aren't as flexible as younger students. What frustrates me is when I went to my piano lesson today I really messed up on the first two pages. I've played it much better for my teacher in the past. My teacher is understanding. I used to be extremely nervous playing at lessons. Now I'm only a little more than slightly nervous. I don't play in front of anyone, except my family hears me practice. I want to be able to play offertory in church and just ordered a book to be able to do so.

QUESTION: How do I play CONSISTENTLY each time I play the piece or any piece you've really worked on? And I'm not talking about the occasional wrong note. I do practice about 2 1/2 to 3 hours every single day.

Oh, I got a new Kawai K-200 upright piano last week and am loving it. Wish I could have been a grand but I am very happy with this. Had to drive 3 1/2 hours to the nearest dealer. My Baldwin upright I got at my 15th wedding anniversary and we celebrated 50 years a couple of months ago. So the Baldwin went downstairs so the grandkids can practice on that. Yep 4 grandkids, their parents and a black lab live with us.

Thanks, Pat


Love learning the piano now that I am retired.
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Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: PatG] #2846239
05/07/19 09:19 PM
05/07/19 09:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,511
Australia
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earlofmar Offline
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welcome pat......the tougher the piece the longer it is going to take to really ingrain into you hands and mind. So mucking up at a lesson for me, which happens quite a lot, is only a sign I don't know the piece as well as I think I do. Slow practice is the key.

I actually asked a similar question here a few years ago when I was learning Clementi No 2 and was surprised to hear that 6 months on such a piece was nothing. I worked on that darn piece for 18 months before I could even a recording, but still nowhere near acceptable. The answer is to play within your reach and accept that not all pieces can be conquered.


Following Trying to follow the Ling Ling 40 hour method

Kawai K8 & Kawai Novus NV10


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Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: PatG] #2846243
05/07/19 09:31 PM
05/07/19 09:31 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,202
Florida
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....yet. (Finishing Earl of Mar’s sentence).

Those Clementi’s are deceivingly tricky!


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Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: PatG] #2846248
05/07/19 09:46 PM
05/07/19 09:46 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 4,595
Florida
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Yes, it all takes longer than we think it will. 😊
Just take care when you practice yo practice slow enough to get the notes consistently correct. If you miss s note, make sure you drill that phrase until it is consistently correct.., but yes, stray wrong notes will appear. Just eliminate the habitual errors

It’s frustrating to not play as well in lessons. What works for me is to think of my lessons as being ‘problem solving’ and not ‘see how hard I’ve worked this week’ Lessons. I start out all lessons with the questions that I have gathered, or the problem sections since the last lesson. It might be something as simple as fingering options, or something more complicated. So my mindset starts with ‘help me fix these warts’. It is just a different perspective to address anxiety and if works for me. By the time I start any play through, neither one of us has lofty expectations

Welcome to the forum😊


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: PatG] #2846257
05/07/19 10:50 PM
05/07/19 10:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,583
Finland
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outo Offline
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Finland
I'm afraid consistency is not only slowly built but requires good concentration and memory abilities which I don't have at all. I have been studying for about 8 years and had to accept that I have bad days and good days and will never really be a consistent player. I have studied some pieces on and off for years.

Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: PatG] #2846284
05/08/19 12:26 AM
05/08/19 12:26 AM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 175
Hawai'i Island
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BigIslandGuy Offline
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Aloha and welcome. You're in good company. A lot of us have been through the same experience. As others have said, it can take a long time to really learn a piece well, particularly the tricky ones. It has taken me 6 months to nail down Bach's Partita #4 in D major. And yet, I know that random mistakes will still happen. The way I see it, the process has a certain randomness to it. We're not machines. If I practice more, I have a better chance of making it through a piece perfectly and the more I practice it, the better the odds. But, for me anyway, no matter how much I practice a piece, I will never get it so that I can play it through perfectly every single time. By practicing it as much as I can though, I'm stacking the card deck in my favor. Just another way of looking at it. Your mileage may vary.

Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: PatG] #2846300
05/08/19 02:55 AM
05/08/19 02:55 AM
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Whizbang Offline
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Piano is frustrating. Fortunately all we adults can take the difficulties in stride -twitch-

Basically, your main option is to soldier througjh the low points and monitor and keep evaluating. Consistency is tough and some seem to have the knack for the work habits that yield it. It is not the time as much as how you spend it (and I don’t spend it well)


Whizbang
amateur ragtime pianist
https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeschala
Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: PatG] #2846302
05/08/19 03:36 AM
05/08/19 03:36 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 34
Sweden
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Nip Offline
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Sweden
Incredible job to maintain hours a day - be proud.

I was told long ago - it takes our brain 3-4 days to build new synapses on what our body is doing taken benefit on what you were doing. Have that in mind in how you go about excercises.

And like any physical exercise - when going over certain thresholds it's not efficient anymore.

Patience is our best friend.

Find pieces to work on that you really like - to stand the distance.

Last edited by Nip; 05/08/19 03:37 AM.

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Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: Nip] #2846306
05/08/19 04:37 AM
05/08/19 04:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 860
South Wales
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Colin Miles Offline
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Originally Posted by Nip

I was told long ago - it takes our brain 3-4 days to build new synapses on what our body is doing taken benefit on what you were doing. Have that in mind in how you go about excercises.

.

And most of that new building goes on whilst we are asleep. So sleep is just as important as the time spent practicing. Plus patience and persistence.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: PatG] #2846307
05/08/19 04:58 AM
05/08/19 04:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 877
Sheffield, UK
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KevinM Online content
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It is very variable how well I play in front of my teacher. It is nearly always worse but how much worse varies. But one time I played a piece the best I'd ever played it.

I'd been putting a lot of effort into practising the piece and thought I was ready for recording so I tried over and over again to get a good recording and I couldn't do it. I was so frustrated and felt like I wasn't going anywhere. I left the piece alone for the next few days, I didn't touch it and grumbled about my experience to my teacher. She asked me to play it. I had zero expectations of playing it well. I played it fairly fast, almost at the speed expected of it by a professional. I played with dynamics and feeling and no obvious mistakes. My teacher and I were blown away. She did say that can happen, and that sometimes having a break from a piece is the best thing you can do.

That was a few weeks ago now, and I still haven't managed to get that recording of it I'm happy with.


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
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Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: PatG] #2846356
05/08/19 09:16 AM
05/08/19 09:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,849
Ireland (ex England)
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zrtf90 Offline
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QUESTION: How do I play CONSISTENTLY each time I play the piece or any piece you've really worked on?
ANSWER: Be a machine.

_Appearing_ to play without mistakes takes years of practise and experience at making mistakes and covering them up.

I'd been playing for years before anyone heard me play outside the home. When I did play in front of others I played music that I could almost play in my sleep. My advice would be to choose music at least four grades below your comfort level. As your comfort level grows you can choose harder music. Being comfortable means being able to cover up mistakes quickly and easily and that, at first, means simple music. Simple is not easy. When you're playing in public there is no such thing as easy music. If you're nervous even playing for your teacher then playing in public is a huge challenge. Few of us are gifted with performance ability no matter how good we get at the instrument.

You'll need to overcome perfectionism and accept substandard playing as normal. Always, when you play in public, your playing will be you at your worst. When you practise, try to improve your worst playing, your best will get better that way too. Timekeeping will be your best friend. People will overlook or ignore wrong notes (we process what we hear, make sense of it and ignore what doesn't support the patterns). Rhythmic errors, though, jar the attention even for those not really listening.

If you can, learn to play WITH others before trying to play FOR others.


Richard
Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: PatG] #2846359
05/08/19 09:29 AM
05/08/19 09:29 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 440
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John305 Offline
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Your post isn’t clear about experience. You said you had one year of lessons 40 years ago, have you been playing this whole time or did you stop until you resumed lessons 16 months ago? If it’s the latter case the piece may be a bit above your ability. The RCM lists that piece (1st movement anyway) as grade 7 but you appear to have less than two and a half years experience. If this is in fact the case, this could explain why you’re struggling with the piece. The good news is that you clearly have determination to be able to stick with that piece so long, that determination will serve you well in this hobby.


It’s never too late to be what you might have been. -George Eliot
Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: zrtf90] #2846366
05/08/19 09:44 AM
05/08/19 09:44 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,814
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
QUESTION: How do I play CONSISTENTLY each time I play the piece or any piece you've really worked on?
ANSWER: Be a machine.

_Appearing_ to play without mistakes takes years of practise and experience at making mistakes and covering them up.

Being comfortable means being able to cover up mistakes quickly and easily and that, at first, means simple music.
There is no way to cover up a mistake as in a missed note. The only thing one has to learn is to not let a mistake affect the music after the mistake is made.

If you are talking about mistakes as in memory lapses, again there is nothing that can be done to cover them up but experience and careful memorization can allow one to continue after a memory lapse so that the memory lapse is less obvious.

Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: PatG] #2846381
05/08/19 10:25 AM
05/08/19 10:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,347
Midwest USA
Stubbie Offline
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I have been taking lessons for five years and still screw up something awful when I play for my teacher. I did resolve not to say "But I played this so much better at home" to my teacher and I think she appreciates it. And, yes, the nerves are still there although much diminished from earlier.

The most (though nowhere near completely) effective thing I've been able to do is to stop, take a deep breath, make an effort to relax, and then continue by focusing on the music itself. When things go wrong in front of my teacher, most often it's because my mind has wandered off the music itself and onto other things, like what is my teacher thinking about how I'm playing, what I'm thinking about how I'm playing, oh no here comes that hard part, was that the correct note I just played?, Squirrel! etc. If I can re-focus on the music itself, I can get back on track.


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Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: Stubbie] #2846382
05/08/19 10:28 AM
05/08/19 10:28 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 877
Sheffield, UK
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KevinM Online content
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Sheffield, UK
Originally Posted by Stubbie
I have been taking lessons for five years and still screw up something awful when I play for my teacher. I did resolve not to say "But I played this so much better at home" to my teacher and I think she appreciates it. And, yes, the nerves are still there although much diminished from earlier.

The most (though nowhere near completely) effective thing I've been able to do is to stop, take a deep breath, make an effort to relax, and then continue by focusing on the music itself. When things go wrong in front of my teacher, most often it's because my mind has wandered off the music itself and onto other things, like what is my teacher thinking about how I'm playing, what I'm thinking about how I'm playing, oh no here comes that hard part, was that the correct note I just played?, Squirrel! etc. If I can re-focus on the music itself, I can get back on track.


Such good advise. Keep the focus on the music, listen to yourself playing. That is best distraction from the nerves of playing for your teacher.

Easier said than done of course but it really does help.


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
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Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: pianoloverus] #2846383
05/08/19 10:28 AM
05/08/19 10:28 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,715
Pennsylvania
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dmd Offline
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by zrtf90
QUESTION: How do I play CONSISTENTLY each time I play the piece or any piece you've really worked on?
ANSWER: Be a machine.

_Appearing_ to play without mistakes takes years of practise and experience at making mistakes and covering them up.

Being comfortable means being able to cover up mistakes quickly and easily and that, at first, means simple music.
There is no way to cover up a mistake as in a missed note. The only thing one has to learn is to not let a mistake affect the music after the mistake is made.

If you are talking about mistakes as in memory lapses, again there is nothing that can be done to cover them up but experience and careful memorization can allow one to continue after a memory lapse so that the memory lapse is less obvious.


Sounds like someone is trying to get an argument going … thereby hijacking this thread.

Not good.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: PatG] #2846480
05/08/19 01:56 PM
05/08/19 01:56 PM
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Posts: 5,167
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wouter79 Offline
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Welcome!

* 18 months? Maybe you are suffering from over-learning? This is where more practicing actually is going to make your playing worse.
* If you have worked 18 months on this, then I'm pretty sure you are 90%+ relying on muscle memory.
* If muscle memory derails and you have no solid landmark, your piece will crash and burn
* Rewiring the brain takes years. Maybe a few small things can be done in a few days but not general patterns. Obviously everyone would be at the master level here if it were different.
* If you are under pressure, you start focusing on other things, like "make no mistakes", you get tense, your stting slightly different, your papers are slightly differently placed then while practicing, the piano sounds a bit odd, etc etc. All these throw off your muscle memory.


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Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: PatG] #2846481
05/08/19 01:57 PM
05/08/19 01:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 328
Salish Sea
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Congratulations on your new Kawai, PatG! I hope it gives you hours and years of joy! There is lots of good advice in this thread -- "good" meaning, I agree!

I am surprised you are tackling that Clementi! It is said to be a lot harder than no. 1, which was plenty challenging for me recently. I'm at a similar stage: basically started a couple of years ago, in my mid-60s, from almost-the-beginning. Every piece takes months to learn; my expectations are more realistic now than when I began.

I am not often nervous with my current teacher -- luckily we can laugh together! I recognize that she is beside me to help me make progress, starting at wherever I am when I come in that week. She's not there to punish me for making mistakes, but to teach me how to fix them! I try to limit myself from wasting lesson time with apologies for mistakes; she will hear my heavy sigh, perhaps! I try just to take a deep breath, and then continue to play. My mistakes tell her what skills I need to work on; she is there to tell me HOW to work on these skills.

Some weeks I don't get enough time to practice as I would like (or as I imagine she would like), but that's life. Although piano is a high priority, sometimes other things take precedence: family emergencies or work or even (!) a vacation. But I swear, my priority for the next week will be sustained work on finger independence! (I'm looking at you, "Arietta"!)


”Mister Upright,” Yamaha YUS5.
Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: Qwerty53] #2846497
05/08/19 02:55 PM
05/08/19 02:55 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,982
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted by Qwerty53
[...]
I am not often nervous with my current teacher -- luckily we can laugh together! I recognize that she is beside me to help me make progress, starting at wherever I am when I come in that week. She's not there to punish me for making mistakes, but to teach me how to fix them! I try to limit myself from wasting lesson time with apologies for mistakes; she will hear my heavy sigh, perhaps! I try just to take a deep breath, and then continue to play. My mistakes tell her what skills I need to work on; she is there to tell me HOW to work on these skills.
[...]


This is good to read. Would that more teacher/student relationships reflected an attitude like this.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: frustrated and new to forum [Re: PatG] #2846508
05/08/19 03:46 PM
05/08/19 03:46 PM
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In my teaching experience, students are usually inconsistent because the practise the wrong way, or inefficiently.

You really have to practise very small sections, and I mean, very small, over and over, slowly. Students often try to play through the piece too soon.

So for instance, in the Clementi first sonatina, you have the opening motive "ta ta-te ta" on beats 1, 2 and 3. Practise that motif "Ta ta-te ta" slowly, different dynamics. Use the fourth beat as the up-beat to the next measure so "ta TA ta-te ta" (upper-case Ta being beat 1). Then do it again, and again. Slowly. Speed up gradually. Then put the two motifs together, allowing your brain to think of the two individual motifs that make up that statement.

Second measure, fourth beat, that's the up-beat to the scale, so you start "ta Ta-te ta-te ta", stay on that last "ta", it's the passing of the finger over the thumb. Be careful there. What movement are you making to pass the finger? Is it efficient and effective? Then move on to the next part of it, etc etc. Break down the whole piece like this. Don't play through it from beginning to end. It will take you a couple of hours to do the first two pages. Do the second two pages in the same way. Work like that for 3 days in a row. After 3 days, play it through. Slowly. Increase the speed gradually each time you play it. If you're still having problems, at least now you can analyse exactly where, and exactly why, because you'll have the small motifs clear in your head.

I am almost certain that will eliminate any catastrophes you may be experiencing! Good luck!

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