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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Pete14 #2846010 05/07/19 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Am I sensing some passive- aggression here, Bert? laugh

Not intentionally, no.

I meant it, when I wrote that this implied "inferiority" exists only on paper, not in reality. And that in reality the two actions are simply different (not inferior/superior) and whichever you like better is up to your personal preference.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846020 05/07/19 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by navindra

The recorded sound does sound muffled to me as well.


It definitely sounds muffled.



This is actually kind of funny/interesting (at least to me): I think the recorded sound in that video is particularly good; I can't think of any digital piano sounding that good in a recording. I was especially impressed by the massiveness of the bass.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846029 05/07/19 09:16 AM
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Here is a video of two Bosendorfer 225 being played side by side at Cunningham (I like the second one better!). The two mics they are using seem to be boosting the mid-range somewhat. At least to me.

They have not recorded a CFX there at their shop using the same mics. I had asked Rich if he could record the N3X beside the N1X for comparison but they did not. The placement of those two mics on the N1X may have contributed to the muffled sound based upon the placement of the mics on the back. Speakers are much more directional than an acoustic is.

Have a listen:


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846101 05/07/19 01:46 PM
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Apart from the plastic bits, the NV10 action is not the same as the SK-EX. The keysticks are probably the most important difference between it and a concert grand but almost everything else is different as well. Millennium III only refers to the plastic bits. There's no reason to think Yamaha's action is in any inferior to the Kawai, apart from the keystick length. Using a plastic jack or repetition lever doesn't really matter if it works as well. Why would it?

I believe it's dishonest to claim (or give the impression that) hybrids have the same action as a concert grand. It's simply not true.


Last edited by johnstaf; 05/07/19 01:54 PM.
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
johnstaf #2846104 05/07/19 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Apart from the plastic bits, the NV10 action is not the same as the SK-EX. The keysticks are probably the most important difference between it and a concert grand but almost everything else is different as well. Millennium III only refers to the plastic bits. There's no reason to think Yamaha's action is any more different form their concert grand, apart from the keystick length. Using a plastic jack or repetition lever doesn't really matter if it works as well. Why would it?

I believe it's dishonest for Yamaha and Kawai to claim (or give the impression) that their hybrids have the same action as a concert grand. It's simply not true.

I don't think Yamaha make this claim anymore, but they did when the AG came out first.


I feel we're approaching the point of arguing semantics. However, if we exclude the keysticks and hammers (as I also understand as JoBert does that this is common in the definition of an "action" in the acoustic world),

Quote
believe it's dishonest for Yamaha and Kawai to claim (or give the impression) that their hybrids have the same action as a concert grand.


I'd really like to see some evidential backup to this claim, as applies to either Yamaha/Kawai.

Kawai in particular, explicitly states that the EX Concert Grand uses a Millennium III action, as does the SK-EX. If you have proof that they don't, that's at the least a strong false advertising claim, and I would encourage you to make the case more fully.

I've not seem much reference to Yamaha's action used in the CFX, except for vague recollections that it has a "Yamaha balanced action" as opposed to a 3P action like a Renner, but even that doesn't really describe what the differences are with an AG hybrid action....

I wonder if this is something that should be flagged for the Tuner-Technicians Forum? Perhaps they may have a more defined acoustic standard that we're not quite so familiar with in the digital realm?


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846117 05/07/19 02:48 PM
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Kawai refer to THE Millennium III action, but there isn't a single Millennium III action. This leads people to believe that the action is the same in an NV-10 and the SK-EX.

I don't think any technician would ever talk about an action design without taking the keys into account.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846124 05/07/19 03:14 PM
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P.S. Very shortly after the AG appeared Yamaha started calling it the modified acoustic action, or something like that. They only claim to use real action parts, AFAIK, which is a much more appropriate way to market the piano.

Last edited by johnstaf; 05/07/19 03:15 PM.
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
johnstaf #2846153 05/07/19 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Kawai refer to THE Millennium III action, but there isn't a single Millennium III action. This leads people to believe that the action is the same in an NV-10 and the SK-EX.


Is that really the case? Genuinely interested in the evidence behind this, is there anything you can link to support it?

Originally Posted by johnstaf
I don't think any technician would ever talk about an action design without taking the keys into account.
Again, is this really the case? Everything I've seen so far in the acoustic (grand) world separates the keysticks from the the action. Many even separate the damper mechanism (the back action) from the core action mechanism.

Does WNG consider the keys a part of their actions? Does Renner? Again, I'm not really versed in what is considered an acoustic action so I'd really like to know if this is the case.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846194 05/07/19 06:22 PM
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You can't use the action from a small grand in a concert grand. Compare the plate design of the SK2 and the SK-EX. They have a different number of struts and different width, so the hammers would be in the wrong place. I don't know if an SK-EX action would even fit into the action cavity of an SK2.

WNG sell compete "top actions". They also sell back actions (damper actions). They don't call these complete actions.

If you buy a completed assemblies from some big European piano companies, you can buy a top action stack, or a complete action assembly that includes Kluge keys. This doesn't include the back action, but it's not sold as a complete action.

It drives many techs to distraction when some people replace repetitions and hammer shanks with Renner parts and call it a Renner action. My piano has a Schwander action with some Renner parts. It's not a Schwander action anymore, and it's most certainly not a Renner action.

Steinway call their American grand action the Accelerated Action. These are actions that have a specific type of key balance rail design. That's not even part of the top action stack.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
johnstaf #2846200 05/07/19 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
You can't use the action from a small grand in a concert grand. Compare the plate design of the SK2 and the SK-EX. They have a different number of struts and different width, so the hammers would be in the wrong place. I don't know if an SK-EX action would even fit into the action cavity of an SK2.


Does it make for a "different action" when the geometry is individualized for 4 struts versus 5? I honestly don't know. But I've always assumed that the geometry varies for each piano as required, and that doesn't change the nature of the action itself. Perhaps there are significant differences in the stresses depending on where the "breaks" are for the brackets/rails, but if that makes for a completely different action designation, that's news to me!

Would a WNG action not be a WNG if it were separated across 5-6 brackets instead of 4?


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Gombessa #2846293 05/08/19 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by johnstaf
You can't use the action from a small grand in a concert grand. Compare the plate design of the SK2 and the SK-EX. They have a different number of struts and different width, so the hammers would be in the wrong place. I don't know if an SK-EX action would even fit into the action cavity of an SK2.


Does it make for a "different action" when the geometry is individualized for 4 struts versus 5? I honestly don't know. But I've always assumed that the geometry varies for each piano as required, and that doesn't change the nature of the action itself. Perhaps there are significant differences in the stresses depending on where the "breaks" are for the brackets/rails, but if that makes for a completely different action designation, that's news to me!

Would a WNG action not be a WNG if it were separated across 5-6 brackets instead of 4?


I get the point you are making, but I could also propose that Millennium III does not represent an industrial standard like ISO 9001 etc. We have no way of knowing whether they use the same premium felt, capstans, knuckle material etc on a Millennium III on a NV10 as they do on a SK-EX concert grand. I believe we are supposed to remain in the dark about this. It's classic marketing vagueness. The only thing we can be confident of is the actual mechanical substrate being used ie. the Carbon Fibre reinforced ABS plastic, which is essentially all Millennium III means as far as I can tell, given the geometry is completely different for differently sized pianos. I also think it would be naive to exclude the possibility of a large corporation creating different levels of product within the same product designation because large corporations are famous for making an effort to shave dollars and cents off the cost of production.

So, all in all, I'd say this is a zero sum argument between Yamaha and Kawai in terms of these hybrid pianos. They are both using high quality action parts and designs and the actions are actually the most time-proven parts of these hybrid pianos - much more so than any of the electronic stuff.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846340 05/08/19 08:36 AM
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The N1X in Hugh's video is actually mine (I ordered it awhile back, finally came in a few days ago!). It's being delivered this Friday. I got a good long play at it on Friday. A little background - I'm a former professional pianist, been playing and practicing almost exclusively on Steinway/M&H/Bosendorfer grands in nearby churches, because I have no room in my house and a lot of kids so I would need something very compact and with headphones. I tooled around on the N2 a bit ago and while it's not an acoustic grand, the action was comparable to a grand and I was surprised by how great the sound was in headphones. So I bit the bullet and ordered the N1X so I can have something that works in my house with the latest sound engine and comparable action to an acoustic grand.

It's a great instrument, and I'm really happy with it! Practicing on it vs an acoustic Steinway, the feel of the action is spot on and I don't have any worries about the work I do on there carrying over to the acoustic grands when I perform or even just practice. I only had two reservations - one being that the CFX sound is BRIGHT. Like, almost buzzy-bright. We were able to mess with some of the settings in store to mellow it out a bit, but it's still pretty buzzy. I strongly prefer a mellow Mason and Hamelin sound, so it's a bit of getting used to. Second, the length of the keys to the fallboard - particularly the stiffness of the keys towards the fallboard - was a bit different than I am used to. I played through a section of Beethoven that requires me to be at the very top of the keys and it was like doing push-ups - it really required some muscle. I think I'd rather err on more than less resistance, though, so not a deal-breaker.

Obviously, I'm not a digital connoisseur - I really know my way around an acoustic, but the digital thing is new to me - but as someone who needs a faithful action but the ability to plug in headphones and a very compact instrument, this was an easy win.

Last edited by Amy C; 05/08/19 08:44 AM.
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Amy C #2846341 05/08/19 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Amy C
Obviously, I'm not a digital connoisseur - I really know my way around an acoustic, but the digital thing is new to me - but as someone who needs a faithful action but the ability to plug in headphones and a very compact instrument, this was an easy win.

I'm sure it is night-and-day compared to your old CVP-309GP. smile


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846342 05/08/19 08:49 AM
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P.S., if you are in the Philly area and want to try it out, it's at Cunningham in KOP till this Friday, so make haste!

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Amy C #2846346 05/08/19 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Amy C
The N1X in Hugh's video is actually mine (I ordered it awhile back, finally came in a few days ago!). It's being delivered this Friday. I got a good long play at it on Friday. A little background - I'm a former professional pianist, been playing and practicing almost exclusively on Steinway/M&H/Bosendorfer grands in nearby churches, because I have no room in my house and a lot of kids so I would need something very compact and with headphones. I tooled around on the N2 a bit ago and while it's no acoustic, the action was comparable to a grand. So I bit the bullet and ordered the N1X so I can have something that works in my house with the latest sound engine and comparable action to an acoustic grand.

It's a great instrument, and I'm really happy with it! Practicing on it vs an acoustic Steinway, the feel of the action is spot on and I don't have any worries about the work I do on there carrying over to the acoustic grands when I perform or even just practice. I only had two reservations - one being that the CFX sound is BRIGHT. Like, almost buzzy-bright. We were able to mess with some of the settings in store to mellow it out a bit, but it's still pretty buzzy. I strongly prefer a mellow Mason and Hamelin sound, so it's a bit of getting used to. Second, the length of the keys to the fallboard - particularly the stiffness of the keys towards the fallboard - was a bit different than I am used to. I played through a section of Beethoven that requires me to be at the very top of the keys and it was like doing push-ups - it really required some muscle. I think I'd rather err on more than less resistance, though, so not a deal-breaker.

Obviously, I'm not a digital connoisseur - I really know my way around an acoustic, but the digital thing is new to me - but as someone who needs a faithful action but the ability to plug in headphones and a very compact instrument, this was an easy win.

Amy, congrats on your new piano and welcome to the club smile We're still only 5 (including you).

Regarding the bright character of the piano. Was that through speakers or through headphones? Because many people actually find the sound of the CFX through speakers slightly muffled. And there's the Bösendorfer sound which is slightly darker. Through headphones the CFX is brighter but I wouldn't describe it as overly bright sound. It's no brighter than any other CFX sound I've heard on recordings made with real CFX pianos, such as the one used in the International Chopin Piano Competition or any sampled CFX libraries. But it can indeed be brighter than other pianos. Yet, I think someone might have tweaked the brilliance control of the N1X and it's one of the settings that's being preserved even if the piano is switched off. I have tested it only once and it made quite a difference to my ears: the brightest setting was overly bright, almost like a pop piano recording, whereas the darkest setting was too dull. Make sure you reset the piano to factory settings when you get it. That's easy: press and hold the rightmost key (highest C-key) while turning on the piano. You don't need to hold it the entire time, just make sure you're holding it while you are switching the piano. After 10 seconds the screen will show "Clr" and that would ensure the piano is at its factory settings. If you still find it bright, then you can try decreasing the brilliance control:
Quote
To adjust the brightness of the sound, simultaneously hold down [FUNCTION] and press one of the A#1–D2 keys. During the operation, the specified value is shown on the display.

Each of these keys corresponds to a brilliance degree between 1 and 5 and will be shown on the display, 3 being the default one.

As to playing towards the fallboard. As has been previously discussed, the piano action in the N1X is similar to those used in Yamaha baby grands, hence it has shorter pivot points. If you are comparing it to concert grand pianos, there will be difference because they use keyboards with extremely long key pivots. There's another hybrid piano Kawai NV10 which uses a real Kawai action which has slightly longer keys, albeit still not in the range of big concert grands.

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/08/19 08:56 AM.

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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2846361 05/08/19 09:30 AM
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@cybergene oh my goodness, that is so helpful! The CFX through headphones was when it was really bright, it wasn't quite as bad through the speakers, which at least to my ears didn't sound terribly muffled, though it wasn't wildly resonant either. I'll be sure to mess around with the brilliance setting. "Pop piano" is a good term to use. It would sound great with Billy Joel, but it didn't quite suit the heavy and dark Rachmaninoff I was playing grin

I am really excited, I'm tired of driving 25 minutes every day just to play piano, it'll be so nice to have something decent in my house to practice on, or that I can sit down on while waiting for the pasta to boil and pick at some passages. It's a really, really lovely piano - miles better than any other digital I tried, thats for sure.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Amy C #2846368 05/08/19 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Amy C
I only had two reservations - one being that the CFX sound is BRIGHT. Like, almost buzzy-bright. We were able to mess with some of the settings in store to mellow it out a bit, but it's still pretty buzzy. I strongly prefer a mellow Mason and Hamelin sound, so it's a bit of getting used to.


Hi Amy,

Congratulations on the purchase. The N1X is a beautiful instrument and I'm sure you'll get a lot of enjoyable and meaningful interaction with it.

Concerning the sound, if you're not able to adjust the touch sensitivity (pg 20 in the manual) or the brilliance (pg 22) to your satisfaction, there is one more thing you can try. The CFX binaural sample is by default activated when you plug the headphones in and select the CFX sample. To the best of my understanding, the binaural sample utilizes two microphones placed up by the head of the player to capture the sound, which results in a brighter tone compared to the non-binaural (multi-channel sample) that is activated when you play through the internal speakers (without headphones plugged in). There might be other factors involved in shaping the CFX binaural sample, I'm not sure, but it definitely is brighter.

Personally, I really love the CFX binaural sample experience. I even bought new headphones in order to get the most enjoyment out of it. It was definitely money well spent.

However, you can turn the binaural sample off even when you have headphones plugged in (pg 15 in the manual). Having the binaural sample turned off with headphones plugged in (to my ears) reduces the brightness of the CFX sound. While it's not preferred by me, you might find it more to your liking based on your previous operational experience. Thanks for sharing and welcome to the N1X experience. I can't wait to hear more about your impressions as you spend more time with the N1X.

God Bless,
David


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846369 05/08/19 09:48 AM
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Hi Amy - some headphones may sound "brighter" than others. That is another way to "EQ" your piano. You don't need expensive headphones.

Maybe your local music store would make a few recommendations and let you borrow a few headphones (or buy a few with full refund vs. store credit) to try at home.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846371 05/08/19 10:05 AM
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And Amy; the action may be able to be regulated with a lighter touch by a professional piano tech. I am not sure about that since this is a DP. You guys, who own this piano: did the store's comment on regulation of this piano? If anyone can answer this question it is Rich of Cunningham. I will send a link to this post to him so he can answer us here.

Rich: we need a Yamaha "KJ" here in DP land! As long as we all do not ask too much from you, since you are a salesman of Yamaha DP's, your insights would help here too.

PS: Now we have to say "You People" that own the N1X! Congrats Amy!


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2846389 05/08/19 10:37 AM
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Is $8400 a good price for this? This price is after discount.

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