2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
70 members (1stTimer, Beowulf, bobsax, Alex C, 20/20 Vision, BadDude, Beemer, beeboss, 14 invisible), 499 guests, and 414 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
#2846134 05/07/19 03:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 387
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 387
What I mean is this: There must be a market for a specialized digital piano with nothing but the "Best". For example, action. Why no DP with a duplicated grand hammer action with sensors?

I have a RD 2000 and it has nice action.... but the RD 600 I had back in '97 was pretty good to and after 20 years, well I would have expected the RD 2000 to be way way better. It is better but no way way better. Further, I don;t feel the RD 2000's action is like a Steinway grand.... no way close. Nice, but no way.

So..... mimicking a real grand action would be expensive.... OK, so what? With a global market and premium pricing, why not?

For sound, a high-end unit would have modular boards than can be updated in the future..... huge memory..... and only the most complex samples.

For digital to analog conversion - again, modular boards or allow a digital out to use your own DAC

For analog electronics, high end amplifiers using top grade components.

There is a ton of money out there...... I gotta believe Roland or a niche maker could make big money on that... further, it can be a maker's halo product.... much like a Dodge Viper was to the Dodge line of cars.... sets a glow and gets a ton of press.

Peace
Bruce in Philly


Peace
Bruce in Philly
Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846138 05/07/19 03:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 465
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 465
Check Kawai and Yamaha. Both use acoustic actions from the proverbial grand piano. Kawai has a really nice one.


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
A Tired, Retired, Dreamer ...
Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
McBuster #2846148 05/07/19 04:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 202
T
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 202
Originally Posted by McBuster
Check Kawai and Yamaha. Both use acoustic actions from the proverbial grand piano. Kawai has a really nice one.

I think that what he tries to say is that even if you go all the way to the top AvantGrand or Kawai Novus, you still don't get that mindblowing experience of touch / sound combination. There are still cheap components used in these products, since good marketing seems to have better results, than actually building a top of the line piano. It is a known thing that digital piano technology advances pretty slow, and it's probably intentional, so that acoustic grands don't lose that much value.


www.youtube.com/channel/UC073i6RnxK4NcnoFp1jYh7Q The place where I ocasionally post my amateur recordings smile
Criticism is welcomed since it helps improving and going forward!

Yamaha P-105 -> Roland HP-605 -> Roland LX708
Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846149 05/07/19 04:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,181
A
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,181
You would only get the “best” action. Check for example the Alpha Grand or Studio pianos with Renner action. http://www.alpha-pianos.com/ These hybrids cost the same as a good acoustic. In any case, the sound is not comparable to an acoustic instrument. For a lower price, you have the AvantGrand and the Novus, that have an adapted acoustic action.

Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846161 05/07/19 04:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,855
3000 Post Club Member
Online Crying
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,855
Bösendorfer had a digital that was more expensive than most mid-size grands. I don't think they made many of them.

Alpha Pianos most expensive digital is dearer than a Steinway Model D. They make digitals with conventional grand actions for €30,000.

P.S. Sorry Arc7urus. I didn't see your post.

Last edited by johnstaf; 05/07/19 04:43 PM.
Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846176 05/07/19 05:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,005
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,005
The answer is diminishing returns: At some point a more expensive digital piano is just another digital piano.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846188 05/07/19 06:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,290
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,290
I think a bespoke digital piano would be an excellent ploy. Choose your keyboard, sound engine, cabinet design, speaker and amp system and connectivity requirements. The manufacturers could get together on this. The cabinet might well be the most difficult thing to design and produce!


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846197 05/07/19 06:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,855
3000 Post Club Member
Online Crying
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,855
I can't imagine the NV-10 ever not being good enough.

Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846201 05/07/19 06:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,441
5000 Post Club Member
Online Content
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,441
Alpha Piano comes to mind indeed. I doubt they ever sold even a single one though. Totally wrong concept IMO. Why would you like nothing but the best and will then buy a digital piano? The best is an acoustic piano. You’re going to spend 100k on a digital because you live in a flat? Or you want to play Pianoteq instead of the real thing? Or you are cheap on tuning and regulation? Or you need to compose hip-hop music in a sequencer through a Renner action.

It just doesn’t make sense. There’s no such thing as high-end digital piano because that’s an oxymoron.

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/07/19 06:33 PM.

My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846204 05/07/19 06:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 170
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 170
Originally Posted by Bruce In Philly
What I mean is this: There must be a market for a specialized digital piano with nothing but the "Best".


I don't believe this premise is correct.
Companies in pursue markets if there are profits in them, or reasons to believe profits are in them.

Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846218 05/07/19 07:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,379
Gold Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,379
I’m not sure what the OP means as “high end”. The AG N3x is more expensive than most baby grands. A sure to be coming NV-3 will also be in that class. The various silent system acoustic piano, uprights and grands, that use the actual soundboard instead of speakers might qualify as high end.


[Linked Image]

Kawai NV10
Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846219 05/07/19 07:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 69
C
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
C
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 69
Why will someone want to buy a high end digital, when they can get a good acoustics at the same price?

Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846220 05/07/19 07:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,422
P
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,422
What about a revival of the Ballsandorfer CeusMaster? Only this time build it into the ‘155’ baby grand cabinet, use a soundboard, and a sensor technology similar to the Alpha Piano (sensors function as strings). Would that be high end enough?

Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846223 05/07/19 08:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 387
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 387
Interesting.... I was unaware of the AG N3x action.... very cool..... but why not in a stage piano or similar unitl without speakers and amps?

Peace
Bruce in Philly


Peace
Bruce in Philly
Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846225 05/07/19 08:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,365
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,365
Originally Posted by Bruce In Philly
Interesting.... I was unaware of the AG N3x action.... very cool..... but why not in a stage piano or similar unitl without speakers and amps?


1. a real piano action is very heavy. There's not much market for a 150 lb stage piano.

2. one of the things that make these things sound more like "a piano in the room" than "a piano being played through speakers" is the particular array of speakers they build into them.

Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846238 05/07/19 09:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,855
3000 Post Club Member
Online Crying
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,855
Originally Posted by Bruce In Philly
Interesting.... I was unaware of the AG N3x action.... very cool..... but why not in a stage piano or similar unitl without speakers and amps?

Peace
Bruce in Philly


Because they don't want me to buy one... [tinfoil hat smiley]

Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846247 05/07/19 09:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 76
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 76
If you were a business,would you invest all the necessary capital into producing a high-end digital piano?All the R&D,factory costs..... How many would you need to sell to just break even? However,have you tried the new Roland LX708 action?longer keys and different pivot points.Feels good to me.


Piano sales consultant
Australian Piano Warehouse-Melbourne Australia
30 years and still going
Steinway upright,Yamaha upright,Roland RD800,Korg Kronos
Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846250 05/07/19 09:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 387
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 387
I know a bit more about cars.... sports cars and the like... and I am throughouly amazed... just amazed at the size of the global market for high-end luxury goods. Million dollar cars.... etc.... Cars such as Koningsegg, Ferrari, McLaren, et al.... These are not just stupid-high priced cars.... they are seriously engineered. Koenigsegg literally makes just about everything... and by hand.... unbelivable engineering in their hand built engines... carbon fiber wheels.... etc etc....

The global market is so so big and there is so much money out there that a maker can charge a large price, develop a very special, highly engineered product, and make money.

I wanted a stage piano for my home.... I like the gadgets and all that candy even though I only layer two sounds at one time.... only dick with the others. I was pretty surprised that Rolands RD 2000, their top stage, was only $2400. Seriously, I would have thought they had some super-premium for the high-dollar folks. Again, the global market is huge.

Peace
Bruce in Philly


Peace
Bruce in Philly
Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846252 05/07/19 10:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 146
V
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 146
Hi Bruce, I think the comment about diminishing returns is spot-on.

Having said that, I purchased my Yamaha N3X three weeks ago and am over the moon happy with it. REAL hammer action, 12 speakers, spatial sampling... honestly I'd say the only limitations of the instrument are from the limitations of sampling methods. I do wish it had built-in wifi and Bluetooth but otherwise there is an amazing amount of tech built in to these things. The most beautiful part for me is that all the tech melts away when I play it... I'm just enjoying the living snot out of it. And it's GORGEOUS in my living room. One of the best purchases I've made in a long while.

I've heard great things about the Kawai NV-10, but there's no dealer in my town. If they'd built one in a grand cabinet with a powerful speaker system I may have traveled to go see it.

Anyhow I encourage you to check out the hybrids that our out there, the best known being from Yamaha, Kawai, and Casio. The only one in a grand cabinet was the N3X, so that was really my only choice. I'm thrilled with it, full-stop.

Last edited by vara411; 05/07/19 10:13 PM.

Yamaha AvantGrand N3X
Yamaha MOX8
Roland FP-10
Re: Why no "High End" Digital Pianos?
Bruce In Philly #2846255 05/07/19 10:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,855
3000 Post Club Member
Online Crying
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,855
Originally Posted by Bruce In Philly
I know a bit more about cars.... sports cars and the like... and I am throughouly amazed... just amazed at the size of the global market for high-end luxury goods. Million dollar cars.... etc.... Cars such as Koningsegg, Ferrari, McLaren, et al.... These are not just stupid-high priced cars.... they are seriously engineered. Koenigsegg literally makes just about everything... and by hand.... unbelivable engineering in their hand built engines... carbon fiber wheels.... etc etc....

The global market is so so big and there is so much money out there that a maker can charge a large price, develop a very special, highly engineered product, and make money.

I wanted a stage piano for my home.... I like the gadgets and all that candy even though I only layer two sounds at one time.... only dick with the others. I was pretty surprised that Rolands RD 2000, their top stage, was only $2400. Seriously, I would have thought they had some super-premium for the high-dollar folks. Again, the global market is huge.

Peace
Bruce in Philly


The V-Piano is/was Roland's most expensive stage piano. It still exists officially as a current product, but seemed to disappear from the real world not long after it was released.

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Musician's Hand Sanitizer available in our online store (and our Maple Street Music shop in Cornish Maine). Antibacterial, 62% ethyl alcohol. Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Tons more music related products in our online store!
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Time for a new teacher?
by Sebs - 05/28/20 09:00 AM
Upgrading to Kawai CA99
by Beowulf - 05/28/20 08:36 AM
Kawai CA58 display
by ChrisGoesPiano - 05/28/20 04:58 AM
Do you teach sight reading?
by Ubu - 05/28/20 04:37 AM
Tool Backpack
by TimM_980 - 05/28/20 12:47 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics199,227
Posts2,963,076
Members97,210
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4