2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
71 members (Amy H, 36251, Antonio Temprano, 8ude, CyberGene, Bill McKaig,RPT, 19 invisible), 506 guests, and 471 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Changing Shape of Base Hammers ?
#2833016 03/30/19 11:38 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 499
G
Goof Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 499
On my large 1945 Brock upright the hammers starting on the base bridge strings are angled to the left - plainly for more contact. And this seems usual on overstrung bases.
These hammers are only 9,5mm wide and for obvious reasons can not be angled to the same angle as the overstrung base strings - all of which are copper wound.
The hammer contact on these strings especially on the first six bichords inspite of my adjusting and reprofiling the hammers is - I think - the cause of an out of phase vibration. I say this because if only one string is played the sound is fine.
I have seen ( can't find the site now) photographs of hammers where their angle to the left matches that of the strings. Those hamers had their sides "filed" top-left and bottom right in order to facilitate overlapping.
Now I'm no great pianist but I would be interested to hear if any body has seen a piano with the hammers I describe above ?

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Changing Shape of Base Hammers ?
Goof #2833229 03/31/19 02:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,517
G
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,517
I’ve had several out of phase issues with wound bichords on uprights but the solution was not the angle of the hammer in relation to the string plane.
It was the strings.
Most uprights don’t have agraffes in the bass so the upper termination is a gently curved pressure bar and many don’t even notch the bass bridge in an effort to help get the speaking lengths somewhat equal on bichords unisons.
Most string makers know how to deal with this and it’s usually not a tuning issue but sometimes the strings just need to be replaced.

Last edited by Gene Nelson; 03/31/19 02:13 AM.

RPT
PTG Member
Re: Changing Shape of Base Hammers ?
Gene Nelson #2833487 03/31/19 05:41 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 499
G
Goof Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 499
Yup! Idid replace those first six bichords and the replacements are slightly smaller in diameter - can;t say that this made much difference.

Re: Changing Shape of Base Hammers ?
Goof #2833512 03/31/19 06:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,517
G
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,517
If you are still inclined to think it’s hammer angle, why not pull the action and remove the hammer and play the unison with the hammer squared to the string??


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Changing Shape of Base Hammers ?
Gene Nelson #2836004 04/06/19 08:08 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 499
G
Goof Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 499
Good idea !
I am going to look for some used upright hammers so that I can test with out damage to the present hammers.

Re: Changing Shape of Base Hammers ?
Goof #2845300 05/05/19 02:03 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 499
G
Goof Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 499
Well ! The problem is definitely the hammers not striking the strings evenly.
I rubbed graphite on the strings so as to get marks on the hammers - the result was plain the - right string of the bichord was leaving a longer mark than the left - the left string's mark was sometimes nearly absent !
Next I played the note and, whilest holding it, down brought the hammer gently back to touch the strings. With out fail the right string would be damped with minimum pressure but the left would keep ringing !
A lot of number 80 grit emery paper has been used to reprofile the hammers so that both strings are hit similtaneously.
Looking at Hecksher(sp) I see that they sell Able hammer sets, 10mm wide, where the base hammers are described as "cut" - this must mean that these are trimmed on opposing top-bottom sides so as to allow complete alighnment to the bi chords.
Anybody seen these trimmed hammers in a piano ?

Re: Changing Shape of Base Hammers ?
Goof #2845301 05/05/19 02:10 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 499
G
Goof Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 499
Well ! The problem is definitely the hammers not striking the strings evenly.
I rubbed graphite on the strings so as to get marks on the hammers - the result was plain the - right string of the bichord was leaving a longer mark than the left - the left string's mark was sometimes nearly absent !
Next I played the note and, whilest holding it, down brought the hammer gently back to touch the strings. With out fail the right string would be damped with minimum pressure but the left would keep ringing !
A lot of number 80 grit emery paper has been used to reprofile the hammers so that both strings are hit similtaneously.
Looking at Hecksher(sp) I see that they sell Able hammer sets, 10mm wide, where the base hammers are described as "cut" - this must mean that these are trimmed on opposing top-bottom sides so as to allow complete alighnment to the bi chords.
Anybody seen these trimmed hammers in a piano ?

Re: Changing Shape of Base Hammers ?
Goof #2845459 05/05/19 01:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,102
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,102
Charles Walter pianos tend in that direction.

Sounds like you are talking about mating the hammers to the strings rather than hammer angle. That makes much more sense. Very important to good time.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Changing Shape of Base Hammers ?
Goof #2845672 05/06/19 06:26 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 499
G
Goof Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 499
Yup ! "mating hammers to strings " is all I can do at present and probably all I will do as I'm 83yrs and I do not suppose I'l become a fantastic pianist who needs a fantastic piano !
However it bugs me that the manufacturer of what is other wise a good sounding piano did not overcome what to me is a design fault ?
I will contact Hecksher and ask about the "cut" hammers.
Again, just to HAMMER my point ! These hammers on the base cross stringings could at least have been 10mm wide and not just over 9mm, all the treble hammers are 10mm.

Re: Changing Shape of Base Hammers ?
Goof #2845725 05/06/19 09:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,102
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,102
The reason is due to weight. Bass hammers on a vertical are longer and heavier than tenor. They decided to deal with that issue by narrowing them. Not a bad decision.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Changing Shape of Base Hammers ?
Goof #2845846 05/06/19 05:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,102
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,102
Actually I realized I realized I had that wrong...bass hammers are longer in a grand, thus can sometimes be narrower. They are shorter in an upright. So forget what I said above. Oops!

Perhaps for clearance they were made narrower. That makes more sense.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 05/06/19 05:41 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Changing Shape of Base Hammers ?
Goof #2845855 05/06/19 06:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28,672
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28,672
Making hammers the same width allows one to make a jig for boring them at any angle without a lot of trouble. Changing the width can be done, but it adds an extra complication.

Trimming hammers so that they do not rub against one another is a somewhat common practice in cheaper pianos. This can be trimming the felt in front, or the tails in back.


Semipro Tech

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Hand Independance Breakthrough
by SparkyLB - 08/12/20 02:03 PM
Restringing a fortepiano
by Antonio Temprano - 08/12/20 01:51 PM
Label for an old APSCO tuning pin torque wrench
by Michel Lachance - 08/12/20 01:48 PM
Help with bore distance
by electone2007 - 08/12/20 01:47 PM
PianoCraft Restored Steinway D NY Times Met Shameless Boast
by Keith D Kerman - 08/12/20 01:28 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics200,877
Posts2,990,993
Members98,120
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4