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Re: Playing faster [Re: KevinM] #2845375
05/05/19 09:55 AM
05/05/19 09:55 AM
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Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Moo :)
As long it is not Josh Wright. THen I will rant again. x

And this is my rant.

Josh Wright has his doctorate in piano performance from the University of Michigan School of Music, which is a top tier school of music, and he is an assistant professor of piano performance at the University of Utah. That is higher credential than anyone who posts regularly on ABF, except perhaps Dr. Rogers who hasn't told us what his doctorate is in. I am annoyed by the vogue of people who have no credentials arguing against experts within their fields of expertise, whether in climatology or piano. Oh I understand it - it's an offshoot of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. It just annoys me.

The more I know about a subject, the more I realize I don't know. I used to be on the left side of the graph - highly critical and thinking I was a far better pianist than I was. That wasn't bad, though, because at the time I thought I could do anything if I worked hard enough at it. I just knew enough to be dangerous. And now, I wish I were more on the right side of the graph, but for me, it seems confidence continues to go down the more I learn LOL.

I really appreciate Josh Wright for giving us free information - I've found his videos to be very helpful. I think he's a good educator, too, unlike some videos where they really do not present material in a way that is easily understood and not misinterpreted. Of course, with any video, you can misinterpret, go too far, etc. since you do not have the feedback of the teacher directly to what was being taught. So with any video, one must bear in mind that they may do it wrong - especially if you are a beginner. But that just goes hand-in-hand with the medium of videos.

To KevinM, how long have you been playing piano? Have you ever had lessons with a teacher, and if so, are you currently studying with a teacher or are you on your own? The answers to these questions can really help pinpoint what the issue is: unrealistic expectations vs. technical issues that require specific attention.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Playing faster [Re: KevinM] #2845378
05/05/19 10:04 AM
05/05/19 10:04 AM
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Posts: 583
Sheffield, UK
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KevinM Online content OP
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On two of the pieces I have had trouble with getting up to speed. I have recently changed the fingering in small sections on both.

For "Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen" this has resulted in getting a decent improvement in speed where I feel comfortable playing the piece. Down from 2:25 to 2:05 sounding good. But it took a lot of practise removing the old fingering, virtually the only practise on that piece for days was just drilling the new fingering in because as soon as I stop concentrating on it I reverted back to the old fingering. The old fingering works perfectly well at slow speeds and I didn't notice it during the lots of slow practise.

For Stücklein no 1 from Bunte Blätter changing the fingering has definitely improved my confidence at playing the piece but it is still only half speed.

For Songs Without Words Op 19.2 I can play it at full speed but I can't keep my left hand quiet at full speed and the melody disappears behind the volume of the left hand. Playing it slowly I can keep the left hand quiet and you can hear the melody nicely. I have been practising this last one for a few months now. I can play it with dynamics and feeling, I can maintain a nice even tempo, but it fails with the support just being too loud when played at speed.


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
DP: Casio Celviano AP-470. HP: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: Playing faster [Re: Morodiene] #2845379
05/05/19 10:05 AM
05/05/19 10:05 AM
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Posts: 2,813
Florida
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Originally Posted by Morodiene

.....
I really appreciate Josh Wright for giving us free information - I've found his videos to be very helpful. I think he's a good educator, too, unlike some videos where they really do not present material in a way that is easily understood and not misinterpreted. Of course, with any video, you can misinterpret, go too far, etc. since you do not have the feedback of the teacher directly to what was being taught. So with any video, one must bear in mind that they may do it wrong - especially if you are a beginner. But that just goes hand-in-hand with the medium of videos.
.....

It’s important to bear in mind that the source of material is very important. As you and TA point out, he is highly educated and presents material thoroughly and clearly. Others post information or videos even though they themselves are beginners. That is not appropriate and may be confusing or misleading, resulting in learning incorrect or poor technique.

You’re further to the right side of that curve than you care to admit - sometimes it just takes someone outside it to point it out! Then again, that’s the whole point of the curve!


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Re: Playing faster [Re: Morodiene] #2845385
05/05/19 10:11 AM
05/05/19 10:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 583
Sheffield, UK
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KevinM Online content OP
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Originally Posted by Morodiene

To KevinM, how long have you been playing piano? Have you ever had lessons with a teacher, and if so, are you currently studying with a teacher or are you on your own? The answers to these questions can really help pinpoint what the issue is: unrealistic expectations vs. technical issues that require specific attention.


I learnt as a child to 5th or 6th grade but lessons finished 40 years ago.

I started again in November last year, hardly able to read music. For the first 6 weeks I learnt alone and much of my ability to read music returned and I learnt a couple of simple pieces and did some scales. From mid December I have been learning with a teacher. My teacher seems to have confidence in me, and combined with liking to give me "stretch" pieces it does feel hard.


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
DP: Casio Celviano AP-470. HP: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: Playing faster [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2845387
05/05/19 10:14 AM
05/05/19 10:14 AM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 174
Hawai'i Island
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Moo :)
As long it is not Josh Wright. THen I will rant again. x

And this is my rant.

Josh Wright has his doctorate in piano performance from the University of Michigan School of Music, which is a top tier school of music, and he is an assistant professor of piano performance at the University of Utah. That is higher credential than anyone who posts regularly on ABF, except perhaps Dr. Rogers who hasn't told us what his doctorate is in. I am annoyed by the vogue of people who have no credentials arguing against experts within their fields of expertise, whether in climatology or piano. Oh I understand it - it's an offshoot of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. It just annoys me.

Oh, but didn't you know, opinions based on hunches and superstitions must be given the same weight as reasoning derived from a life time of study in a field?

Re: Playing faster [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2845389
05/05/19 10:23 AM
05/05/19 10:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,624
In the Ozarks of Missouri
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Moo :)
As long it is not Josh Wright. THen I will rant again. x

And this is my rant.

Josh Wright has his doctorate in piano performance from the University of Michigan School of Music, which is a top tier school of music, and he is an assistant professor of piano performance at the University of Utah. That is higher credential than anyone who posts regularly on ABF, except perhaps Dr. Rogers who hasn't told us what his doctorate is in. I am annoyed by the vogue of people who have no credentials arguing against experts within their fields of expertise, whether in climatology or piano. Oh I understand it - it's an offshoot of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. It just annoys me.


Again, I agree with Tyrone. It annoys me as well "those" with no credentials belittle/argue with experts in their field. As far as Josh Wright, I enjoy his views as well as his playing.


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Re: Playing faster [Re: KevinM] #2845391
05/05/19 10:27 AM
05/05/19 10:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 583
Sheffield, UK
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KevinM Online content OP
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Sheffield, UK
A diversion, which comes from watching the Josh Wright.

I have trouble getting in sync with a metronome. I managed to do it with Bach BWV 846, one of the first pieces I played on returning to the piano. I just could not get an even tempo at all and after many attempts I did manage to get in sync with a metronome and once I did it really helped me get a sense of timing back after the 40 year break.

Recently I have tried to do the same with practising scales since I have very little idea of how fast I am playing scales. I can play them at different speeds and keep a consistent tempo but I literally have no idea of what tempo I am playing at and I thought I could have a go with a metronome again but I just can't get started with being in sync.

I assume in the end this is just another thing that I will just have to spend time and keep at trying to get started with the metronome until I do.


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
DP: Casio Celviano AP-470. HP: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: Playing faster [Re: KevinM] #2845394
05/05/19 10:35 AM
05/05/19 10:35 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,942
Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by Morodiene

To KevinM, how long have you been playing piano? Have you ever had lessons with a teacher, and if so, are you currently studying with a teacher or are you on your own? The answers to these questions can really help pinpoint what the issue is: unrealistic expectations vs. technical issues that require specific attention.


I learnt as a child to 5th or 6th grade but lessons finished 40 years ago.

I started again in November last year, hardly able to read music. For the first 6 weeks I learnt alone and much of my ability to read music returned and I learnt a couple of simple pieces and did some scales. From mid December I have been learning with a teacher. My teacher seems to have confidence in me, and combined with liking to give me "stretch" pieces it does feel hard.

Coming back to piano - no matter what level achieved as a child - takes a lot of time. You haven't even been at it a year. Go very slowly, don't worry about ultimate tempos. Try to play at a tempo where you can play with accuracy in notes, dynamics, and articulations - and go no faster.

Even when get fully back into the swing of things, slow practice is hugely important. I only stopped playing piano for 1 year since I was a child, and even now I do more slow practice than ever because of how well I learn to play correctly. If you go too fast, too soon what happens is you end up practicing mistakes - which will be sure to come back during a performance. If, however, every time you play a piece you play it correctly, then when nerves kick in, you will minimize the mistakes that happen.

FWIW, I never look at the total time of a piece unless I'm trying to figure out how long a performance will be. I never use it as a measurement of how well I'm playing. There are more important things than tempo or total time to play a piece.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Playing faster [Re: KevinM] #2845407
05/05/19 11:11 AM
05/05/19 11:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 245
M
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Give it time. Your Schumann Kinderszenen is ABRSM grade 5. You haven't been back very long and a 40 year break is an awful long time.

Re: Playing faster [Re: KevinM] #2845428
05/05/19 11:59 AM
05/05/19 11:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 583
Sheffield, UK
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KevinM Online content OP
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I have just managed a recording of Von Fremden Ländern and Menschen, I'm pleased with. I need to make it breathe more. But with this piece I think I now know I can play at something like the correct tempo and I've got room to make it breathe with full expression

The Bunte Blätter no 1, piece I'm just so far from the correct tempo you have to listen carefully to realize the professional recordings are the same piece.

Last edited by KevinM; 05/05/19 12:07 PM.

Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
DP: Casio Celviano AP-470. HP: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: Playing faster [Re: KevinM] #2845434
05/05/19 12:10 PM
05/05/19 12:10 PM
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Sheffield, UK
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KevinM Online content OP
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One thing I can assure everyone, I do a lot of slow practise. I mean a lot. As demonstrated when having to unlearn fingering that works fine at slow practise but not when playing at speed. The poor fingering was so ingrained it took a lot of work just to not keep falling back to using it.


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
DP: Casio Celviano AP-470. HP: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: Playing faster [Re: KevinM] #2845448
05/05/19 01:03 PM
05/05/19 01:03 PM
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Sheffield, UK
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KevinM Online content OP
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This is the Bunte Blätter piece just recorded without the repeats so about half the actual length of how how it should be played.

I play at about half speed and compared to the following recordings Richter, Handelsmann and others, it is an utterly different piece.

Perhaps this one is just beyond me and I need to accept that.


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
DP: Casio Celviano AP-470. HP: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: Playing faster [Re: KevinM] #2845493
05/05/19 03:04 PM
05/05/19 03:04 PM
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Hijacking the thread in a different direction my challenge is what to do when there is just one part of piece that I can't get close to the recommended speed. In my case its from the Alfred Masterwork J.S. Bach 18 Short Preludes No. 2. It's the second to last measure, no 15, and the trill at the end of it. I can play all of the piece at about 3/4 speed now and am confident that I will get it to full speed soon enough. This trill however... I am playing that at about half speed and even then not so good. I am playing that measure by itself repeatedly but I am not sure I will get there when I have the rest of piece up to full speed. At that point I may just move on accepting that at my current skill level I am not there yet and constant repetition isn't going to get me there any time soon. I can always come back to it if in some later pieces I find my ability to play trills has improved but at this point there seems to be marginal benefits from repetitively trying something that is beyond my ability for now. Any thoughts, do other people move on from a piece when they have all but a few parts mastered?

BTW many thanks to the people that recommended Bach's Little Preludes to me. They are a nice set of pieces that you can make quick progress on and feel that you have accomplished something. I also really like the Alfred Master Work Edition, The explanations at the beginning of the book and the markups in the score are great. I wouldn't have know where to start with the trill in question had they not documented the notes right in the score.


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Re: Playing faster [Re: oneilt130] #2845501
05/05/19 03:13 PM
05/05/19 03:13 PM
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Posts: 16,942
Boynton Beach, FL
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Originally Posted by oneilt130
Hijacking the thread in a different direction my challenge is what to do when there is just one part of piece that I can't get close to the recommended speed. In my case its from the Alfred Masterwork J.S. Bach 18 Short Preludes No. 2. It's the second to last measure, no 15, and the trill at the end of it. I can play all of the piece at about 3/4 speed now and am confident that I will get it to full speed soon enough. This trill however... I am playing that at about half speed and even then not so good. I am playing that measure by itself repeatedly but I am not sure I will get there when I have the rest of piece up to full speed. At that point I may just move on accepting that at my current skill level I am not there yet and constant repetition isn't going to get me there any time soon. I can always come back to it if in some later pieces I find my ability to play trills has improved but at this point there seems to be marginal benefits from repetitively trying something that is beyond my ability for now. Any thoughts, do other people move on from a piece when they have all but a few parts mastered?

BTW many thanks to the people that recommended Bach's Little Preludes to me. They are a nice set of pieces that you can make quick progress on and feel that you have accomplished something. I also really like the Alfred Master Work Edition, The explanations at the beginning of the book and the markups in the score are great. I wouldn't have know where to start with the trill in question had they not documented the notes right in the score.

I don't have the music in front of my, so the actual issue could be related to whether there is a black key involved in the trill, which fingers you're using, and if there is a technical problem (collapsing joint, for example) at play. It might be a good idea to create a separate post for this, and if possible, post a video of you playing the part in question.


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Re: Playing faster [Re: KevinM] #2845541
05/05/19 06:11 PM
05/05/19 06:11 PM
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Sorry Josh Wright lovers. Hehe.

Originally Posted by KevinM
This is the Bunte Blätter piece just recorded without the repeats so about half the actual length of how how it should be played.

I play at about half speed and compared to the following recordings Richter, Handelsmann and others, it is an utterly different piece.

Perhaps this one is just beyond me and I need to accept that.


There is a lot very good about your playing. Speed is the worst feature to compare against. It is the last aspect of a piece you need to work on since if you cannot play it properly slowly you cannot do it fast. People who rush to get it up to speed or force it when they have not got the ability get a faster piece with none of the good things you have so dont put yourself down !

To play a piece well slowly is the vital part of learning and then it take time to get it up to speed. You get a much better result in the end by working methodically. Piano players are made by years of experience. It is a very healthy and good problem to have. And the answer my friend is patience. I have had to learn a lot of patience and get this problem and frustration often but am sticking through it and getting patience. Sometimes if you really cant get there (or are too bored / frustrated / stop practising / hate the piece) then put it to one side and move on. I dont think there is any quick fix you will get online.

Re: Playing faster [Re: Moo :)] #2845543
05/05/19 06:20 PM
05/05/19 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Sorry Josh Wright lovers. Hehe.

mad cursing 3hearts laugh ha grin


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Re: Playing faster [Re: KevinM] #2845546
05/05/19 06:31 PM
05/05/19 06:31 PM
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KevinM Online content OP
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Thanks for the kind words Moo.

If you don’t compare my playing to the professionals i like Bunte Blätter how I play it, it is just a completely different beast to the one the professionals play.


Mendelssohn Song without Words Op19,2 and 19,6, Jensen Sehnsucht Op8,5. Chopin Nocturne C# Minor. Schumann Hasche Mann from Kinderszenen Op15,3. https://soundcloud.com/sheffieldkevin
DP: Casio Celviano AP-470. HP: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: Playing faster [Re: KevinM] #2845547
05/05/19 06:33 PM
05/05/19 06:33 PM
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smile

Re: Playing faster [Re: KevinM] #2845551
05/05/19 06:41 PM
05/05/19 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
Thanks for the kind words Moo.

If you don’t compare my playing to the professionals i like Bunte Blätter how I play it, it is just a completely different beast to the one the professionals play.


You will always be disappointed if you try to achieve professional recordings. I would try to avoid
such comparisons.

Re: Playing faster [Re: KevinM] #2845572
05/05/19 08:06 PM
05/05/19 08:06 PM
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New York City
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If you've given the piece a reasonable amount of practice time, it's probably just too difficult for you right now. This piece is considerably more difficult than the first piece from Kinderscenen, and there are some other pieces in Kinderscenen that might be easier if you love Schumann. I bet in a year you'll be able to play the opening piece from Bunte Blatter considerably faster. It is an extremely beautiful piece IMO.

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