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Your opinion - Real or Fake? #2845143
05/04/19 02:22 PM
05/04/19 02:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 6,223
Tyrone Slothrop Online content OP
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content OP

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Posts: 6,223
I don't think this is a new phenomena, but I've been encountering piano videos, which some are claiming are faked. The usual claimed method of faking is by speeding up the video while lowering the pitch. Another way claimed is by overlaying a different recording as the audio track on a video of your own hands playing the same piece.

Here are some of the videos I've encountered.
Note that while all of the above have had some controversy, some of the above might actually be real performances. In fact, this is likely as for every claim one of these is fake, there are two that it is authentic.

What are some examples you can think of where you feel an amateur or professional pianist has faked a performance, either in a similar way to the above or a different one, and either in whole or only in some aspect?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2845144
05/04/19 02:31 PM
05/04/19 02:31 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 436
J
John305 Offline
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There are days I feel like a total fake with regard to being a piano player, but that of course is not what you’re asking.


It’s never too late to be what you might have been. -George Eliot
Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2845149
05/04/19 03:00 PM
05/04/19 03:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,203
Georgia, USA
Sam S Offline

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Sam S  Offline

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Look up Joyce Hatto on wikipedia for a well known example. It’s actually pretty sad.

Sam

Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Sam S] #2845177
05/04/19 05:07 PM
05/04/19 05:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 6,223
Tyrone Slothrop Online content OP
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content OP

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Originally Posted by Sam S
Look up Joyce Hatto on wikipedia for a well known example. It’s actually pretty sad.

Sam

Wow. "Shrine to a dying wife." That is rather sad frown


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2845183
05/04/19 05:19 PM
05/04/19 05:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,150
M
Moo :) Online content
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Moo :)  Online Content
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I've seen this video by Benjamin Grosvenor and people commented have said it was pre-recorded on a different piano. If that is the case (I cannot tell to be honest), I'm not sure if this is real, fake or something in between.


Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Sam S] #2845196
05/04/19 05:57 PM
05/04/19 05:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,826
In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Offline
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In the Ozarks of Missouri
Originally Posted by Sam S
Look up Joyce Hatto on wikipedia for a well known example. It’s actually pretty sad.

Sam


When I first read the story over 10 years ago, it was both fascinating and appalling at the same time. You just never know what someone will do for "fame".


[Linked Image]
Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Moo :)] #2845218
05/04/19 06:44 PM
05/04/19 06:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 227
London
F
fatar760 Online content
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F

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 227
London
Originally Posted by Moo :)
I've seen this video by Benjamin Grosvenor and people commented have said it was pre-recorded on a different piano. If that is the case (I cannot tell to be honest), I'm not sure if this is real, fake or something in between.



Looks real to me

Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2845233
05/04/19 07:39 PM
05/04/19 07:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 74
Left Coast of US
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Docbop Offline
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What's it matter, there is a speed control on YouTube so you can change it. Also an issue with YouTube speed control once you set it, all video you watch after that are run at that slower/faster speed. So if you use it be sure to set it back afterwards.

If someone is faking people will figure it out and it will be embarrassing for the person who made the video. Youtube is just a gigantic version of the grocery store bulletin board and anybody can put whatever up, you have to think about that when watching stuff on Youtube.

Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2845246
05/04/19 08:30 PM
05/04/19 08:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,203
Georgia, USA
Sam S Offline

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Sam S  Offline

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As far as Grosvenor goes, we know he can play it. What's the problem? It's the same as any pro editing their recordings, which happens a lot.

Sam

Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2845254
05/04/19 09:02 PM
05/04/19 09:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,908
Auckland, New Zealand
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Ted Offline
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Auckland, New Zealand
The only time I alter my recorded improvisation is when an external interruption occurs, such as the phone ringing or somebody at the door, which events are rare. It would be disarmingly easy to make a fine recording of a difficult piece by doing it in sections and stringing them together in Audacity. Gould used to do it by splicing tape, which must have been very laborious. I suppose the original Hatto CDs are pretty sought after now, in much the same way as forged postage stamps are valuable.


"We shall always love the music of the masters, but they are all dead and now it's our turn." - Llewelyn Jones, my piano teacher
Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2845262
05/04/19 10:00 PM
05/04/19 10:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 678
Toronto, Canada
T
thepianoplayer416 Offline
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Joined: Sep 2017
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Toronto, Canada
The first thing we pay attention to is the piano sound. Unless we really know specific brands of pianos, something recorded on a Chinese piano can sound like something on a German or Austrian composer. A lot of people probably won't be able to tell a soundtrack made from a Yamaha, Petrof, Bechstein, Young Chang, Hailun, etc. The difference between an acoustic and a DP is more audible but for most ears the difference between acoustic pianos is very subtle.

The other thing is the audio sampling rate and the recording equipment. Even the placement of microphones in the room can affect the outcome of your audio tracks.

2 people playing exactly the same piece of music would show subtle differences in hand gestures but otherwise be playing the same notes. A few weeks ago, someone posted a trailer from a Chinese movie about violin students playing a piece of music. The fingerings don't even match the notes they were supposed to be playing. A movie is made for entertainment. This sort of accuracy is not important as long as the story gets through to the viewer who may / may not play music. What people might do to make their play-over an existing audio track more convincing is to slow down the audio so they can get the keys they press to match up with the notes and speed up the video to the original speed to look convincing.

Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2845804
05/06/19 02:59 PM
05/06/19 02:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,203
Georgia, USA
Sam S Offline

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Sam S  Offline

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Georgia, USA
I think that someday soon, someone will produce a fake that was done entirely in software. Just mouse clicks to produce the recording, and an instrument like pianotek. It’s tedious, but the results are getting better with time.

Sam

Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Sam S] #2845809
05/06/19 03:11 PM
05/06/19 03:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 6,223
Tyrone Slothrop Online content OP
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content OP

6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 6,223
Originally Posted by Sam S
I think that someday soon, someone will produce a fake that was done entirely in software. Just mouse clicks to produce the recording, and an instrument like pianotek. It’s tedious, but the results are getting better with time.

Sam

There are already such claims of MIDI rendering even in cases of authentic performances.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2845841
05/06/19 05:23 PM
05/06/19 05:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,046
Kitsap County, WA
Chrispy Offline
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Kitsap County, WA
Wow there's been some serious drama on these message boards! We're pretty tame these days all things considered smile

Also, no one will ever accuse my videos of being doctored...


𝒀𝒂𝒎𝒂𝒉𝒂 𝑨𝒗𝒂𝒏𝒕 𝑮𝒓𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝑵1𝑿
Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Docbop] #2845866
05/06/19 06:48 PM
05/06/19 06:48 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 4,433
Florida
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Florida
Originally Posted by Docbop
What's it matter, there is a speed control on YouTube so you can change it. Also an issue with YouTube speed control once you set it, all video you watch after that are run at that slower/faster speed. So if you use it be sure to set it back afterwards.

If someone is faking people will figure it out and it will be embarrassing for the person who made the video. Youtube is just a gigantic version of the grocery store bulletin board and anybody can put whatever up, you have to think about that when watching stuff on Youtube.


👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Why anyone would post a fake video on YouTube or SoundCloud escapes me! H/she knows it is not real, and cannot be reproduced live. Eventually, the false fame will vanish. IMHO, it is a sad life that needs to prop themself up fraudulently for fleeting internet fame. I could care less about trying to ferret out the fakers.

I heard an aphorism last weekend at a choral concert which I have now added to my signature: ‘It is ok to be a Work In Progress.’... and the concert reference was not to the choral work or performance, but the imperfections we have as humans. Ok, sermon done 😊


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2845963
05/07/19 03:13 AM
05/07/19 03:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,146
Canada
keystring Offline
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I read the OP, and it's not incomprehensible. But I'm not sure who this is useful to us as students. Like how does this (someone else's recording) help, hinder, or affect us in our studies?

Broader considerations: Recordings are by nature artificial and subject to various things. If you have a digital piano, then you'll probably get the most authentic result by having a cable run the results straight into your computer. But then there are still the settings in the software that can distort - clipping loud notes, for example. You have to adjust things. If you have an acoustic piano, then there is the factor of microphones, and microphone placement. Not to mention the quality of the microphones. Then you have such gems as "equalization" of sound that is meant for recording conversations, which makes loud sounds quieter, and quiet sounds louder. So the careful crescendo, diminuendo, pp to fff become one equal dynamics with a whisper of change.

I'd like to get some direction as to the purpose of this in the student context. smile

Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2845982
05/07/19 05:56 AM
05/07/19 05:56 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,947
Bulgaria
PhilipInChina Offline
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Bulgaria
A few years back there was a female pianist who had faked her whole CV etc. I don't remember the name.


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2846094
05/07/19 01:28 PM
05/07/19 01:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 25
SF Bay Area
V
vb321 Offline
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SF Bay Area
You can tell by closely watching the keys. No matter how fast the person is playing, keys always bounce back at the same speed. Normally the bounce is slow enough that you can see it happen. If the video is accelerated, the keys will appear to snap back instantaneously. For example, I believe the first link in the OP is genuine (or close to it) and the second is fake.

That's one detail very hard to conceal by editing. It can be concealed by carefully choosing camera position to essentially hide they keys, which is what may be going on in the third link.

Last edited by vb321; 05/07/19 01:35 PM.
Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2846102
05/07/19 01:55 PM
05/07/19 01:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 245
Sweden
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Sweden
It is hardly defined as "fake" to glue different recordings together. It is common routine to record a piece many times and then they mix different sections. In the first take there might have been a miss in the first section but the second was brilliant, in the next take it was the opposite. So ... Or why do you think that every professional recording is absolutely perfect, while live performances seldom are?

Re: Your opinion - Real or Fake? [Re: Sam S] #2846259
05/07/19 11:01 PM
05/07/19 11:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,161
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
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Originally Posted by Sam S
I think that someday soon, someone will produce a fake that was done entirely in software. Just mouse clicks to produce the recording, and an instrument like pianotek. It’s tedious, but the results are getting better with time.

Sam


I used to do this all the time in college in the '90s. I wanted to then use a Bösendorfer Ceus, or something similar for playback, but never got the chance to take it that far. It takes a lot of creativity to make the performance sound convincing. Sometimes it's easier to just learn the piece and play it.

Most mid budget soundtracks are done this way, with sampled orchestras. It takes serious work (and talent) to make these sound good.

Last edited by johnstaf; 05/07/19 11:02 PM.
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