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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
MacMacMac #2844431 05/02/19 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
On an acoustic piano how would noises be influenced by key release velocity?

The velocity of the key release directly influences the velocity with which the damper is lowered onto the string (assuming the sustain pedal is not pressed).
So a quick release lowers the damper quickly, a slow release lowers it slowly.
The sound of the string being damped is different depending on how quick or slow the damper is lowered onto it.
DPs can attempt to model this varying sound if they know the release velocity.

This can only be modeled as an approximation however, because of the differences between acoustics and (most current DPs):

On acoustic pianos, the dampening of the string finishes at the moment of the full key release.
On a DP however, it starts a the moment of the full key release.

Imagine a very very slow key release, let's say so slow that between the moment when the damper begins to touch the string and the moment the key is fully released (i.e. the damper sits fully on the string) a whole second passes. During that second, you will hear the acoustic effect of the damper touching (and dampening) the string more and more, until the sound finally ceases at the end of that second (or even a bit earlier), which is the exact moment when the key is released fully.

On a DP, the release velocity is also measured during this second just before the key release, but he note off message that makes use of this information is only generated at the moment of full key release. So if the DP would try to model the same key release sound of the string being damped more and more over the course of the a whole second, the DP would have to model this sound effect during the second that follows the full key release - while on the acoustic it would happend during the second before the full key release.

So using the key release velocity to generate different sounds for the key release is actually not optimal. Well, in real life, key releases are of course usually much faster, so it probably won't be noticeable, but still, there is a deficiency inherent to this method.

The AvantGrands (and likely also some of Yamaha's acoustic silent systems) are currently the only DPs that I know of who try to address this deficiency by re-purposing the after touch MIDI event (as was discussed elsewhere - and don't confuse this with the normal pressure-sensitivity after touch and also not with the same term used to regulate acoustic pianos).


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2844482 05/02/19 12:26 PM
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With rare exceptions the sound from a digital is so-so ... but we can tweak the damper release noises with just a bit of software.
Surely the latter is more pressing than the former, right?

That's akin to the house being on fire ... but we have 10 minutes left on this Game of Thrones episode.
Surely the latter is more pressing than the former, right?

Mixed up priorities. frown

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
MacMacMac #2844489 05/02/19 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That's akin to the house being on fire ... but we have 10 minutes left on this Game of Thrones episode.
Surely the latter is more pressing than the former, right?

Yes! Absolutely more pressing! thumb grin


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
MacMacMac #2844493 05/02/19 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
With rare exceptions the sound from a digital is so-so ... but we can tweak the damper release noises with just a bit of software.
Surely the latter is more pressing than the former, right?


A lot of these seem to be last-1% issues. The AG supports release velocity and "smooth release" samples, but I've not yet heard from anyone that they make an appreciable difference in the realism of the playing. The NV-10 doesn't support release velocity at all, since it uses a single sensor to determine key-on/off. But that hasn't stopped numerous advanced pianists from enjoying its playability and tone.

My own take--if it's easy to do, then by all means add these bells and whistles, as they do make the simulation more real. But we should try not to overstate their importance, because in the end, they really don't make or break the experience (and for me, Garritan CFX doesn't utilize any of these advanced key-off features since the NV-10 doesn't send them, but the pure tone is just so much more realistic than any hardware DP even without the extras).


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
MacMacMac #2844499 05/02/19 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
With rare exceptions the sound from a digital is so-so ... but we can tweak the damper release noises with just a bit of software.
Surely the latter is more pressing than the former, right?

That's akin to the house being on fire ... but we have 10 minutes left on this Game of Thrones episode.
Surely the latter is more pressing than the former, right?

Mixed up priorities. frown


The sound itself (as a waveform) is not the major issue on a good digital piano or on a sample-based VST. DPs and VSTs can mimic quite well the *recording* of an acoustic. However, the reproduction of the sound is light-years away from being able to match an acoustic instrument. A very good example of how abysmal sound reproduction is are the Kawai Aures and the Yamaha Transacoustic acoustic hybrid/silent pianos. Both can be played in pure acoustic mode and also in digital mode. The latter mutes the strings and uses transducers to resonate the soundboard and reproduce the (digital) sound. If you have the chance to play these pianos, set the volume level in digital mode to match the acoustic volume level. Then switch back and forth between acoustic mode and digital mode. The cabinet is the same, the soundboard is the same... but the digital mode is simply unable to remotely sound like the acoustic mode...

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
arc7urus #2844516 05/02/19 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
If you have the chance to play these pianos, set the volume level in digital mode to match the acoustic volume level. Then switch back and forth between acoustic mode and digital mode. The cabinet is the same, the soundboard is the same... but the digital mode is simply unable to remotely sound like the acoustic mode...


Odd, for me these silent pieces are the only ones that make me double take to see if I'm playing in acoustic or digital mode. And the time will will certainly be different, jury least because the digital or trying to emulate a 9ft concert grand and not the same cabinet it's housed in.


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Gombessa #2844550 05/02/19 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by arc7urus
If you have the chance to play these pianos, set the volume level in digital mode to match the acoustic volume level. Then switch back and forth between acoustic mode and digital mode. The cabinet is the same, the soundboard is the same... but the digital mode is simply unable to remotely sound like the acoustic mode...


Odd, for me these silent pieces are the only ones that make me double take to see if I'm playing in acoustic or digital mode. And the time will will certainly be different, jury least because the digital or trying to emulate a 9ft concert grand and not the same cabinet it's housed in.

I had to chance to play a K500 and a full-size upright Yamaha in quiet area of a shown room for half an hour, so my experience is limited to that. So, due to your experience you may have a different and more informed opinion that mine. But my experience was that they both sounded very good in acoustic mode as expected, but in digital mode (with the acoustic mode muted) they did not sound much more "realistic" than the CA98 that was also in the room (and which is my current DP). In digital mode they sounded good for a DP but also like a recording played through speakers and not like a live instrument anymore. However, if the acoustic sound was muffled (instead of muted) and played simultaneously with the digital mode, the spatiality and overall quality of the sound increased dramatically. I guess there is still a lot to go until a couple of transducers is able to replicate how the soundboard reacts to the vibration of 230 strings...

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2844741 05/03/19 09:08 AM
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I just tested the pedal on my MP7SE and it responds to velocity too. The quicker I press the pedal with my foot the louder the damper sounds.


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2845020 05/04/19 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
I just tested the pedal on my MP7SE and it responds to velocity too. The quicker I press the pedal with my foot the louder the damper sounds.

That is expected since the damper pedal in most DPs reports continuous readings. Note that the pedal sensors are not measuring velocity but the position (from off to fully depressed). Each pedal position change produces an individual midi controller message.

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2845030 05/04/19 07:52 AM
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The pedal may be continuous. It's just a pot.

But the MIDI values are not continuous. Mine has only about six values in large steps ... not 0, 1, 2 ... 127.

Setting MIDI aside ... I wonder whether the piano's internal sound respond to the pedal in a continuous fashion?

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2845033 05/04/19 07:55 AM
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I tested my MOTIF XF and it does not respond to key-off release velocity!!! Really really surprised. The key-off sample in AWM2 architecture is attached to the velocity and not the release speed.

There is no way for me to simulate the KAWAI implementation of note-release velocity.

That being said, the logical conclusion (the CP series are built by the synth department in Yamaha according to Phil) since the CP series use the same architecture, it is very very likely that CP88 also doesn't have the key-off release velocity implemented (at this point I'm 99% sure).

Last edited by Abdol; 05/04/19 07:55 AM.

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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
MacMacMac #2845114 05/04/19 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The pedal may be continuous. It's just a pot.

But the MIDI values are not continuous. Mine has only about six values in large steps ... not 0, 1, 2 ... 127.

Setting MIDI aside ... I wonder whether the piano's internal sound respond to the pedal in a continuous fashion?

The Kawai CA78/98 and the Casio PX-560 map the pedal readings over the full midi range (0-127). But just on the right/damper pedal. The middle and left pedals are basic on/off switches - these report 127 when pressed and 0 when released.

On the CA (and pianoteq) quickly releasing the pedal produces sound that is quite different than when the pedal is released slowly. The damping (and half pedaling) effect are thus dependent on the pedal position and velocity. The simulated (and annoying) mechanical noise is also different. However, this effect can probably be emulated with less than 127 steps...

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2845115 05/04/19 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
I tested my MOTIF XF and it does not respond to key-off release velocity!!! Really really surprised. The key-off sample in AWM2 architecture is attached to the velocity and not the release speed.

There is no way for me to simulate the KAWAI implementation of note-release velocity.

That being said, the logical conclusion (the CP series are built by the synth department in Yamaha according to Phil) since the CP series use the same architecture, it is very very likely that CP88 also doesn't have the key-off release velocity implemented (at this point I'm 99% sure).

But the motif is a synth with a synth action. Why should it support key-off velocity? It supports channel pressure, as expected from a synth (although Yamaha is known not to add aftertouch/pressure sensing on several of its keyboards).

By the way the cp88/73 do NOT support note-off velocity. Just download the manual and check the midi implementation table on the last pages.

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2845119 05/04/19 12:01 PM
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As I previously commented, Yamaha support key off velocity in their Clavinova pianos and even better continuous approach on AvantGrand pianos which is logical. A Motif or CP piano will usually be used in a gig or in a more modern studio context rather than for classical music, so there’s no need for key off because it won’t even be heard. Kawai on the other hand don’t support key off velocity in their most expensive and pianistic digital piano to date, the Novus NV10 and that’s slightly counter intuitive.


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
CyberGene #2845136 05/04/19 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Kawai on the other hand don’t support key off velocity in their most expensive and pianistic digital piano to date, the Novus NV10 and that’s slightly counter intuitive.


Yes. But understandable given how the technology works. Kawai does support it in their standard triple sensor DPs, but as you uncovered in your patent search, the optical hammer sensor scheme utilized by Kawai cannot determine key position other than "slightly depressed" and fully released (no velocity).


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
CyberGene #2845358 05/05/19 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
As I previously commented, Yamaha support key off velocity in their Clavinova pianos and even better continuous approach on AvantGrand pianos which is logical. A Motif or CP piano will usually be used in a gig or in a more modern studio context rather than for classical music, so there’s no need for key off because it won’t even be heard. Kawai on the other hand don’t support key off velocity in their most expensive and pianistic digital piano to date, the Novus NV10 and that’s slightly counter intuitive.


The Rhodes, guitars and many other voices in MOTIF series they all have key-off samples. In the synthesis architecture, there is a mode called key-off. When a sample is set to this mode, it will be triggered only after the keys are released. Unfortunately, it is not responding to the release velocity which would add to the realism.

Last edited by Abdol; 05/05/19 07:40 AM.

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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2845416 05/05/19 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
The Rhodes, guitars and many other voices in MOTIF series they all have key-off samples. In the synthesis architecture, there is a mode called key-off. When a sample is set to this mode, it will be triggered only after the keys are released. Unfortunately, it is not responding to the release velocity which would add to the realism.

It seems you would like to have different key-off samples depending on the release velocity. But, afaik, the AWM2 only allows one such insert per voice. In any case, the volume of the key-off (which is triggered on Release) should be proportional to the volume of the Decay section of the envelope, which can be controlled by the aftertouch. So, you already have a key-off sample whose volume is a function of the velocity (i.e. pressure before release).

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
arc7urus #2845447 05/05/19 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Abdol
The Rhodes, guitars and many other voices in MOTIF series they all have key-off samples. In the synthesis architecture, there is a mode called key-off. When a sample is set to this mode, it will be triggered only after the keys are released. Unfortunately, it is not responding to the release velocity which would add to the realism.

It seems you would like to have different key-off samples depending on the release velocity. But, afaik, the AWM2 only allows one such insert per voice. In any case, the volume of the key-off (which is triggered on Release) should be proportional to the volume of the Decay section of the envelope, which can be controlled by the aftertouch. So, you already have a key-off sample whose volume is a function of the velocity (i.e. pressure before release).


arc7urus I'm speaking about velocity. key-off velocity depends on the release speed. Which is not implemented in the AWM2 architecture. You can have as many as key-off samples. Indeed you can set all the 8 elements in a voice to key-off, but if you go to the Amplitude section in VOICE EDIT mode, the key-off does not respond to the release velocity. The key-off velocity is attached to the touch velocity.

XA Control type is not an insert. As I said, the amplitude (volume) of the key off sample will not respond to the after-touch. It only responds to the initial touch.


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2845801 05/06/19 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Abdol
The Rhodes, guitars and many other voices in MOTIF series they all have key-off samples. In the synthesis architecture, there is a mode called key-off. When a sample is set to this mode, it will be triggered only after the keys are released. Unfortunately, it is not responding to the release velocity which would add to the realism.

It seems you would like to have different key-off samples depending on the release velocity. But, afaik, the AWM2 only allows one such insert per voice. In any case, the volume of the key-off (which is triggered on Release) should be proportional to the volume of the Decay section of the envelope, which can be controlled by the aftertouch. So, you already have a key-off sample whose volume is a function of the velocity (i.e. pressure before release).


arc7urus I'm speaking about velocity. key-off velocity depends on the release speed. Which is not implemented in the AWM2 architecture. You can have as many as key-off samples. Indeed you can set all the 8 elements in a voice to key-off, but if you go to the Amplitude section in VOICE EDIT mode, the key-off does not respond to the release velocity. The key-off velocity is attached to the touch velocity.

XA Control type is not an insert. As I said, the amplitude (volume) of the key off sample will not respond to the after-touch. It only responds to the initial touch.

But isn't the volume of the key-off sample proportional to the amplitude/volume of the ADSR envelope? Or does the Motif play the key-off sample always the same volume?

If you release a key slowly, you will get a sequence of aftertouch events with low value before the note-off. If you release a key quickly, the aftertouch events will have a high value. Something like this:
Slow release: note-on, pressure 110, 120, 110, 90, 70, 60, 50, 20, note-off
Quick release: note-on, pressure 110, 120, 100, note-off

This is the usual sequence of events on keyboards with aftertouch. So, even if the Motif does not have note-off/release velocity (as most synths), the release velocity can be partially inferred from the sequence of pressure events before the note-off. In the first example, the low value pressure events will reduce the amplitude of the envelope. In the second, the envelope will end up with a high amplitude. The engine should now play the key-off sample with an amplitude that fits the current envelope. The result would be quite similar to having note-off velocity. Is the AWM2 architecture working differently?

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2845806 05/06/19 02:04 PM
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I doubt it but I will verify it when I get home. I am 100% sure that in MOXF, MODX series the key-off samples do not respond to aftertouch and they only respond to the initial touch velocity.


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