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KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
#2844098 05/01/19 09:19 AM
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On my MP7SE, the slower I release the key the lower is the volume of the hammer fallback samples.

This is awesome! As far as I know, I don't remember if Yamaha synths have key off velocity implemented. Not sure about Roland and the rest. I should go and check it out tonight. I'm sure MOTIF XF does not send note release velocity midi commands.

Super happy about how engineers in KAWAI have paid attention to and meticulously made the MP series!

Last edited by Abdol; 05/01/19 09:24 AM.

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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2844105 05/01/19 09:24 AM
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Yamaha synths are not pianos so it’s understandable if they haven’t implemented a key off velocity although I’d guess they support aftertouch which is more relevant for a synth sound.

However Clavinova pianos and AvantGrand pianos support much more than key off velocity: they support continuous key position measuring which allows for half-damper and that’s more advanced and realistic simulation. Key off velocity is just a small subset of that.

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/01/19 09:25 AM.

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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2844110 05/01/19 09:30 AM
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Clavinova has only 3 sensor set per keys, 2 for the velocity measure, one for the damper. No continuous key position. But the time from the velocity sensors to the damper sensor can modify the release of the sound.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 05/01/19 09:30 AM.

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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Frédéric L #2844115 05/01/19 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Clavinova has only 3 sensor set per keys, 2 for the velocity measure, one for the damper. No continuous key position. But the time from the velocity sensors to the damper sensor can modify the release of the sound.

Right, I stand corrected. It’s the AvantGrand pianos that send continuous key position. However Clavinova pianos support key off velocity and Yamaha call that “Smooth release”.


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
CyberGene #2844134 05/01/19 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yamaha synths are not pianos so it’s understandable if they haven’t implemented a key off velocity although I’d guess they support aftertouch which is more relevant for a synth sound.

However Clavinova pianos and AvantGrand pianos support much more than key off velocity: they support continuous key position measuring which allows for half-damper and that’s more advanced and realistic simulation. Key off velocity is just a small subset of that.


Great points CyberGen! I did not say the synths don't have it. The eXpanded Articulation has the key-off element but I am not sure if it responds to the release velocity or not (louder the quicker you release the key). But I am sure that the key-off MIDI command cannot be sent.

One other scenario I tried yesterday was: If I slightly reduce the pressure on a key (almost halfway) and play the same the key again I get a sustained sample played without holding the sustain pedal (means that the hammer has not been fallen on the strings when I retriggered the sample).


I mainly want to know the feedbacks about CP88 and CP4. According to Phil Clendeninn, the CP series is built by the synth department not the digital piano department. I am not familiar with AvantGrand series. They are very fine and wonderful digital pianos but my humble guess is they are in a different league (correct me if I'm wrong).

Last edited by Abdol; 05/01/19 10:16 AM.

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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2844156 05/01/19 11:18 AM
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Roland also has it, at least since PHA 4.
I believe it is common in 3 sensor keyboards now.

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2844161 05/01/19 11:26 AM
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I thnk Kawai has had this for a while, and it should include key-off samples, key-off velocity and fallback volume. But yes, it's good to see additional realism added to DP behavior.

What I think is missing from almost all DPs--sympathetic resonance activation on sensor-1 depression (rather than MIDI-Note-On).


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2844168 05/01/19 11:47 AM
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I think it's cool how Kawai made reactivation of damper, if very quick it emulates strings still ringing in sound board, and old resonance is partly re-established, as I recall. So very short release of damper is what I am talking about.

Even having the simpler MP7SE there is half damper with settings. Even though I wish for it to start later, how it affect part damping is nice.

I just had mine for two days now, so many settings to discover.

Recently got rid of a CLP-535 and overly impressed by Kawai and how you can fine tune just about everything.

It's been too long since playing acoustic piano to remember how key off felt.


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Nip #2844172 05/01/19 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nip
I think it's cool how Kawai made reactivation of damper, if very quick it emulates strings still ringing in sound board, and old resonance is partly re-established, as I recall. So very short release of damper is what I am talking about.


I may be wrong, but I believe this is referred to as "re-pedaling" as a pianistic technique.


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2844175 05/01/19 12:14 PM
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Re-pedaling works on every digital piano ever since I remember them.


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
CyberGene #2844180 05/01/19 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Re-pedaling works on every digital piano ever since I remember them.


Among those I've had since the 80's, CLP-50, P85, YDP-223 and CLP-535 - only 535 had string resonance emulation as I recall.

Default settings for sympathetic resonance were rather high on MP7SE, just about all presets, so it became obvious every little thing you did - so maybe didn't notice before about re-pedaling on 535.


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2844190 05/01/19 01:14 PM
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I think we’re talking about different effects
- re-pedaling
- damper resonance
- string resonance

Which one do you mean?


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
CyberGene #2844277 05/01/19 06:21 PM
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Tested the MIDI output of my Dexibell Vivo P3 and realized that implements key-of velocity that varies as the key is released faster or slowly.

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2844284 05/01/19 06:51 PM
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But there remains the question: What will you do with the key-release data?

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
DPAfficionado #2844383 05/02/19 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DPAfficionado
Tested the MIDI output of my Dexibell Vivo P3 and realized that implements key-of velocity that varies as the key is released faster or slowly.

We need to be precise with these descriptions...

The Dexibell sends out a *single* note-off velocity value when a key is released. So, each key press will produce a single note-off velocity message. Thus, the note-off velocity is not variable but a (different) constant value for each key press. This feature is supported by most DPs with three-sensors.

Continuous key-off velocity detection is not supported by the MIDI 1.0 specification. The AvantGrands (at least) report the position of each key using a sequence of aftertouch/pressure MIDI events, but this is not standard. Such events are used in some controllers to measure the pressure level while the key is pressed, not to measure key position.

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
MacMacMac #2844386 05/02/19 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
But there remains the question: What will you do with the key-release data?

Depends on the DP or VST and the instrument you are trying to simulate. For example, on the Kawai CAs, the resonance, mechanical "noises" and the sound generated when a key is released depend on the velocity. Pianoteq does the same. Not sure if sample-based VSTs also make use of such data, but they could definitely use different release samples and adjust the resonance accordingly. And key-release velocity data is even more important to add expressiveness to non-percussive instruments, such as strings, wind or synths.

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
Abdol #2844389 05/02/19 04:50 AM
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On an acoustic piano how would noises be influenced by key release velocity? It's puzzling to me how and why Kawais makes use of key release velocity.

For non-piano sounds (synths, etc) ... sure. But who buys a high-end piano to play such? That would be like off-roading in a Lexus instead of a Jeep.

Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
MacMacMac #2844397 05/02/19 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
On an acoustic piano how would noises be influenced by key release velocity? It's puzzling to me how and why Kawais makes use of key release velocity.

For non-piano sounds (synths, etc) ... sure. But who buys a high-end piano to play such? That would be like off-roading in a Lexus instead of a Jeep.


Thuds?


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
ShyPianist #2844402 05/02/19 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
On an acoustic piano how would noises be influenced by key release velocity? It's puzzling to me how and why Kawais makes use of key release velocity.

For non-piano sounds (synths, etc) ... sure. But who buys a high-end piano to play such? That would be like off-roading in a Lexus instead of a Jeep.


Thuds?

Thuds. Ugh. How pianistic! Someday, someone will bioengineer an artificial cow and make sure it farts. Since real cows fart. A lot. laugh


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Re: KAWAI has implemented key-off velocity
MacMacMac #2844405 05/02/19 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
On an acoustic piano how would noises be influenced by key release velocity? It's puzzling to me how and why Kawais makes use of key release velocity.

The Kawais use the key-off velocity (at least) for the sound generation and mechanical noises. The velocity changes the release envelope and the release sample/sound as well. So, the sound generated when a key is released fast or slow is different.

The mechanical action noises on an acoustic action are indeed a function of the velocity. Try to get hold of an acoustic piano action model and observe how the mechanism resets depending on the velocity of the key release. Or just damp the strings on an acoustic grand with your hand and check the different mechanical noises with different velocities...

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