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Re: My son needs a piano [Re: RJ's dad] #2844328
05/02/19 12:33 AM
05/02/19 12:33 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 626
Arkansas
S
supersport Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Arkansas
Hi,

Today there was an advertisement for a very well respected piano manufacturer offering 18 months 0% financing when purchased by May 31st. I don't know if this is something that would fit your circumstances but wanted you to know about it.


David



Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: My son needs a piano [Re: RJ's dad] #2844329
05/02/19 12:38 AM
05/02/19 12:38 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,280
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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Carey  Offline
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,280
Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted by RJ's dad
[
The SN on the Sohmer Cupid is 62032.

The case is in excellent shape and overall appears to have been well cared for. It's clear the pins, strings, hammers etc are not original and were all replaced. It is not tuned but still plays well, and as you say it's the action mechanism that makes it easier to play and that aligns with the owner (who is also an experienced tech/tuner/rebuilder) with his assessment of (while older and not his work) to have all been redone.

The quality uprights he had were pricier than the Sohmer, and if I had the coin I'd just get the Tokai, my son liked it the best, it looks like a new piano and sounds great.


The serial number places the Sohmer's build date at around 1925.

Here's a video I found of a 1925 Sohmer Cupid model that was partially rebuilt and was selling for $2,750 seven years ago. How does this instrument compare to the one you are considering?

https://youtu.be/pOGBYXyv4bE

You seem to be impressed by the sound and appearance of the Tokai. Can the dealer tell you the age of the Tokai? Any possibility of getting your son's teacher (or another advanced player) to audition the Tokai for you and/or having the Tokai checked out by an independent technician? It would need to be pristine to command a $5K asking price.


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Re: My son needs a piano [Re: RJ's dad] #2844444
05/02/19 10:04 AM
05/02/19 10:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,421
Georgia, USA
Rickster Offline
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Rickster  Offline
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Georgia, USA
Originally Posted by Carey
You seem to be impressed by the sound and appearance of the Tokai. Can the dealer tell you the age of the Tokai? Any possibility of getting your son's teacher (or another advanced player) to audition the Tokai for you and/or having the Tokai checked out by an independent technician? It would need to be pristine to command a $5K asking price.

This is another sort of OT comment but could be relevant, I suppose.

About a year or so ago I got a strange call on my cell phone (which was certainly not the first). This guy was asking about the Tokai G180 grand piano I had for sale back in 2009/2010(?). I told the guy I had sold the piano years ago.

He said he was the pastor of a church that had a Tokai G180, like the one I had sold, they were trying to sell and a lady had offered them $2000 for it. Since I have a bad habit of revealing too much of my personal business than I should, I told the guy that I paid $4250 for the Tokai G180 I had and played it for a few years and then offered it for sale for $3500 and accepted an offer of $3000 for it.

I also told the guy that I thought the Tokai G180 was likely worth more than $2000, depending on condition, but if they needed to get rid of it maybe they should accept the offer. He told me thank you for the information and they may make the lady a counter offer for a bit more money.

Moral of the story? Be careful what you say, write or post on the Internet. It never goes away or disappears, apparently. Especially regarding a Tokai acoustic piano. smile

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: My son needs a piano [Re: RJ's dad] #2844462
05/02/19 11:15 AM
05/02/19 11:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,440
Urbandale, Iowa
S
Steve Chandler Offline
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Steve Chandler  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,440
Urbandale, Iowa
One more speculation about the Tokai, it's possible the dealer has invested in some work on it. If that's the case then there's some sunk cost involved and that may be contributing to the dealer's lack of price flexibility. Ask what work (s)he's had done to it (beware of a tendency to exaggerate)? Rickster suggested having your son's teacher try the Tokai and a technician inspection, I second those suggestions. You need an outside opinion of the instrument in front of you. Remember, every opinion here is based on experience with different pianos and every piano should be evaluated on its own merits.

Re: My son needs a piano [Re: RJ's dad] #2844486
05/02/19 01:43 PM
05/02/19 01:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 14
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noyes Offline
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noyes  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 14
As of this moment a 4'11'' Tokai baby grand made in 1982 is being listed for $7739 on the website of one of the frequently mentioned dealers on the west coast.

https://livingpianos.com/pianos/tokai-baby-grand-piano-20493/

Re: My son needs a piano [Re: RJ's dad] #2844570
05/02/19 05:37 PM
05/02/19 05:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,124
๐ŸŽน
Retsacnal Online content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
Retsacnal  Online Content

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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,124
๐ŸŽน
RS, your enthusiasm for your son is awesome!

Please understand that this site is regularly visited by pianophiles of the highest order. A significant contingent seem to believe that the only legitimate piano purchase is one made at full retail (i.e. that you shouldn't aim to get a good piano for a lower price, but that you should settle for a lesser piano at full price). There are also those who believe that every step up on the curve of diminishing returns is worthwhile, and that if a "better" piano is available, no matter how much more it costs, then that is the only piano to have.

Those are extremes, of course, and people are all over the map. IMO, it's possible to find a nice small grand for a reasonable price.

One trick to simplify finding one is to predetermine which models will be of interest to you. This will save you a lot of time because you won't be looking at every uninteresting piano that's available.

For me that model was a Baldwin M. You can read about my search here if you want to

I wanted a Baldwin M--the shortest Artist model--because I anticipated moving back into the city after my girls finished school, and assumed that I'd have less space to keep it in. As it turned out, my wife passed away and I will very likely not be moving into the city, so in retrospect I wouldn't have minded a larger piano (e.g. Baldwin R or L, or even an SF).

Also in retrospect, I wouldn't have minded spending more money, but at the time I was worried that I might bring it home only to have it collect dust like so many do. Fortunately, that has not been the case. As an added and unexpected bonus, I've also enjoyed learning about the technical side of the piano too.

I'm a little embarrassed now to point people to my search thread, because I probably got too good a deal. My wife and I always enjoyed hunting down just the right thing, and loved to find a bargain. All of that factors into the sentimental attachment I have to the piano, the joy of hunting it down with her. Good memories.

I was aiming to spend about 4k, which I thought was a "good price" for a Baldwin M. The one I purchased was originally listed at 8. Somewhere along the line the price dropped to 4 and later to 2 while I looked at others. The seller was realistic about the second-hand private party market for selling her piano, and was motivated to sell. Her daughter was a singer/songwriter and the piano had wanted for nothing in terms of maintenance.

If I were to purchase my own piano today, I'd say it'd be "worth" between 4 and 5 thousand from a private party, and somewhat more than that from a dealer with extra dealer service (warranty, delivery, first tuning, etc).

I anticipate getting a "nicer" piano at some point, and don't really have a budget limit. But my Baldwin M is near and dear to me for a number of reasons, and I will never let it go. And no need to, because it's a nice piano.

Anyway, all that to say: you can find a nice piano for a good price if you're patient and resourceful.


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: My son needs a piano [Re: RJ's dad] #2844609
05/02/19 09:10 PM
05/02/19 09:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 33
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RJ's dad Offline OP
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RJ's dad  Offline OP
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Posts: 33
@Retsacnal,

Thanks for your post and sharing your story!

We're going to take our time and try to enjoy this next step for our son. We want to make a sound investment for my son and not rush it.

I have seen a few Baldwin M's for sale and want to see/hear my son play it, so we can evaluate all our options.

The local Steinway store also has a, "How to buy a piano" seminar I will try to attend as well so to better educate myself.

@Carey,

The Tokai is immaculate, looks like a new piano. It's new to the store and has not been worked by the owner/tech and it sounds great as is without any tuning which to me is a good sign it can hold it's tune. I think the sound is attributed to it's size so I'm curious how a smaller Baldwin M compares...

Re: My son needs a piano [Re: RJ's dad] #2844645
05/02/19 11:52 PM
05/02/19 11:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,186
Queensland, Australia
backto_study_piano Offline
1000 Post Club Member
backto_study_piano  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,186
Queensland, Australia
Have you read through this?

https://www.pianobuyer.com/Resources/Piano-Brands-Profiles

there are 9 sub-sections under the heading 'USED & RESTORED PIANOS" with lots of good information.


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
Re: My son needs a piano [Re: RJ's dad] #2844646
05/03/19 12:01 AM
05/03/19 12:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,124
๐ŸŽน
Retsacnal Online content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
Retsacnal  Online Content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,124
๐ŸŽน
Originally Posted by RJ's dad
@Retsacnal,

Thanks for your post and sharing your story!

You're welcome.

Originally Posted by RJ's dad

The local Steinway store also has a, "How to buy a piano" seminar I will try to attend as well so to better educate myself.

Don't be surprised if it [understandably] turns into a "why you should buy a Steinway" seminar. See this recent related thread:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2822153/steinway-kinda-screwed-me.html#Post2822153


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: My son needs a piano [Re: Retsacnal] #2844649
05/03/19 12:24 AM
05/03/19 12:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,186
Queensland, Australia
backto_study_piano Offline
1000 Post Club Member
backto_study_piano  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,186
Queensland, Australia
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by RJ's dad
@Retsacnal,

Thanks for your post and sharing your story!

You're welcome.

Originally Posted by RJ's dad

The local Steinway store also has a, "How to buy a piano" seminar I will try to attend as well so to better educate myself.

Don't be surprised if it [understandably] turns into a "why you should buy a Steinway" seminar. See this recent related thread:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2822153/steinway-kinda-screwed-me.html#Post2822153

Yes, my first thought too. It'll be pure marketing to get you into a Steinway eventually. In fact, I'd suggest it could be quite depressing, going there with a modest budget and then them presenting reasons to spend $100,000+ - maybe not today, but up a $$piral $$taircase till you get one.

I'd suggest not going.

Bear in mind that they do have 2 cheap models, not called Steinways. One made in China, and is inferior to a KAWAI/YAMAHA equivalent sized piano. The other made by KAWAI - but KAWAI makes a better and less expensive piano. They'll suggest buying the cheap one, with guaranteed trade-in up to the next - then to a Steinway. Pure marketing.

You'd be better off visiting every piano store you can.


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
Re: My son needs a piano [Re: backto_study_piano] #2844653
05/03/19 12:49 AM
05/03/19 12:49 AM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 162
Hawai'i Island
B
BigIslandGuy Offline
Full Member
BigIslandGuy  Offline
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B

Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 162
Hawai'i Island
Originally Posted by backto_study_piano
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by RJ's dad
@Retsacnal,

Thanks for your post and sharing your story!

You're welcome.

Originally Posted by RJ's dad

The local Steinway store also has a, "How to buy a piano" seminar I will try to attend as well so to better educate myself.

Don't be surprised if it [understandably] turns into a "why you should buy a Steinway" seminar. See this recent related thread:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2822153/steinway-kinda-screwed-me.html#Post2822153

Yes, my first thought too. It'll be pure marketing to get you into a Steinway eventually. In fact, I'd suggest it could be quite depressing, going there with a modest budget and then them presenting reasons to spend $100,000+ - maybe not today, but up a $$piral $$taircase till you get one.

I'd suggest not going.

Bear in mind that they do have 2 cheap models, not called Steinways. One made in China, and is inferior to a KAWAI/YAMAHA equivalent sized piano. The other made by KAWAI - but KAWAI makes a better and less expensive piano. They'll suggest buying the cheap one, with guaranteed trade-in up to the next - then to a Steinway. Pure marketing.

You'd be better off visiting every piano store you can.


+1. Steinway for sure makes beautiful pianos, but their marketing is right up there too. Almost as good as Bose when it comes to slick marketing.

Re: My son needs a piano [Re: Retsacnal] #2844757
05/03/19 10:46 AM
05/03/19 10:46 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,823
Georgia, USA
terminaldegree Offline
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terminaldegree  Offline
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,823
Georgia, USA
Originally Posted by Retsacnal

Please understand that this site is regularly visited by pianophiles of the highest order. A significant contingent seem to believe that the only legitimate piano purchase is one made at full retail (i.e. that you shouldn't aim to get a good piano for a lower price, but that you should settle for a lesser piano at full price). There are also those who believe that every step up on the curve of diminishing returns is worthwhile, and that if a "better" piano is available, no matter how much more it costs, then that is the only piano to have.


This is an unfair characterization of the forum, and definitely of the advice thatโ€™s been given in this thread.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: My son needs a piano [Re: terminaldegree] #2844790
05/03/19 12:07 PM
05/03/19 12:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,124
๐ŸŽน
Retsacnal Online content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
Retsacnal  Online Content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,124
๐ŸŽน
Wow, TD! You have in the not too distant past accused me of cherry picking, and yet here you truncate your quote of my post literally at the point in which I concede the very point on which you criticize it:

Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Those are extremes, of course, and people are all over the map.


My post wasn't a characterization of the forum in the large, and wasn't meant to be. But it was an acknowledgment of the voices that can seem disproportionately loud and discouraging to a new visitor. I know this from my own experience here. I simply acknowledged what may sound off-putting to RJ's Dad, and offered some encouragement from a different point-of-view.


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: My son needs a piano [Re: RJ's dad] #2844822
05/03/19 01:55 PM
05/03/19 01:55 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,280
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Carey  Offline
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,280
Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted by RJ's dad
The local Steinway store also has a, "How to buy a piano" seminar I will try to attend as well so to better educate myself.
As other here have stated, this seminar will most likely focus on marketing Steinway designed products (Essex, Boston and Steinway). Still might be interesting to attend just to hear the hype. smile

Quote
@Carey, The Tokai is immaculate, looks like a new piano. It's new to the store and has not been worked by the owner/tech and it sounds great as is without any tuning which to me is a good sign it can hold it's tune. I think the sound is attributed to it's size so I'm curious how a smaller Baldwin M compares...
The Baldwin M (pre-Gibson) was a well-designed, well-built and well-regarded piano. Also has more power than you might think. Definitely a step up from the Tokai, if in good condition.


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Re: My son needs a piano [Re: RJ's dad] #2844877
05/03/19 06:10 PM
05/03/19 06:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11
J.D. Ford Offline
Junior Member
J.D. Ford  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11
Hey "RS" so I have a passion for pianos and my family has been in the business for over 47 years. I don't know if you've found anything yet but I love helping people on a budget shop. This is not a solicitation by any means at all! I do provide free free phone consultation to help people in their search. I don't take money off this it's just a passion of mine and we've been buying pianos for a long time. You can book a phone call here if you are still looking.

I watched your video of your son playing Bach's Prelude no.1. Impressive. Let me know if I can help in any way! Good luck!

Last edited by J.D. Ford; 05/03/19 06:12 PM.
Re: My son needs a piano [Re: terminaldegree] #2844918
05/03/19 08:19 PM
05/03/19 08:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 540
Virginia
D
DFSRN Offline
500 Post Club Member
DFSRN  Offline
500 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 540
Virginia
Terminaldegree, that was solid advice. I took as a child, and then resumed at the age of 54. I am going into my 6th year of lessons. Started on a P115, which I donated to the music school. Interesting it is used for my lessons because we play 2 pianos 4 hand duets. I asked about the difference between spending for a new YUS 5 or a baby grand. I was informed the YUS 5 would be a better quality piano than a new baby grand at that price. My tuner rebuilds pianos and agreed the YUS 5 was the better choice. I reviewed the Internet for almost a year before I decided.

I read some posting where people can outplay a acoustic, that would never the case for me. I am guessing that the OPs, son would have a long way to go before outplaying a good upright. I liked the 52" inch piano, to me it is a fuller sound. For $5,000 may be able to get nice used Yamaha U1 (48") or U3 (52"). My understanding is schools of music use the U1 and U3 as they are durable and well built.

I agree, a quality instrument is the way to go.

Yamaha has a b series (I am not familiar with it) for under $5000. Also have 0 APR financing for up to 18 months.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/index.html


Deb
"A goal properly set is halfway reached." Zig Ziglar
Re: My son needs a piano [Re: DFSRN] #2844924
05/03/19 08:48 PM
05/03/19 08:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,186
Queensland, Australia
backto_study_piano Offline
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Posts: 1,186
Queensland, Australia
Originally Posted by DFSRN
... difference between spending for a new YUS 5 or a baby grand. I was informed the YUS 5 would be a better quality piano than a new baby grand at that price. My tuner rebuilds pianos and agreed the YUS 5 was the better choice. ...

That was precisely my experience back in 1977.

I was going to buy an Upright YAMAHA UX - which at the time was the top of the line upright YAMAHA piano, but the dealer asked if I was interested in a baby [5'2"?] YAMAHA grand for the same price - there were no YAMAHA Grands within 500km and he wanted one which he could demonstrate on.

I went to the distributor's showroom (2000km away) and checked one out - and the UX (and U3) - and the UX was the superior piano - which I had for 30+ years. Yes, the big Grands were lovely - but the baby grands weren't as good as the big upright.


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
Re: My son needs a piano [Re: RJ's dad] #2844931
05/03/19 09:40 PM
05/03/19 09:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,646
North Vancouver
L
Lady Bird Online content
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Lady Bird  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,646
North Vancouver
Perhaps it all depends,some good baby grand pianos may
sound better than a taller upright piano and visa versa.
Some do not enjoy playing an upright !

Re: My son needs a piano [Re: Lady Bird] #2844934
05/03/19 10:14 PM
05/03/19 10:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 540
Virginia
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DFSRN Offline
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Virginia
Ladybird, I agree with you regarding the adult player. It comes to a matter of what is valued. However, the child probably would not know the difference and a high quality upright may last until adult hood.


Deb
"A goal properly set is halfway reached." Zig Ziglar
Re: My son needs a piano [Re: RJ's dad] #2844943
05/03/19 10:30 PM
05/03/19 10:30 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 424
North of Los Angeles
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Learux Offline
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Learux  Offline
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Joined: May 2018
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North of Los Angeles
What is more important to you? The sound of a big upright or the action of a small grand.

Tough choice indeed.


When you play, never mind who listens to you. R.Schumann.

Casio GP-400
Schimmel SP-182T
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