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If we practise without being musical then this is how we play.

You harping on the same thing in several threads.

In which case, I suggest you read the blogs of some very well-known pianists (who are certainly not 'mere mechanicus') and read about what someone once observed of Richter practicing.........

Is Richter's playing mechanical?

(Is Federer's playing mechanical - or artistic?)

[...]When [Richter] was specifically asked if he starts to play expressively at a slow tempo or later, he clearly stated, 'expressiveness right away'.

God there's so many things I disagree with in the last few posts:

Playing musical does not necessary mean changing tempo

If a singer is worried about their breath control then they're not very good singers. I actively encourage all my singing students to forget about their breath and put their focus on song context and, where required, ensuring the correct ligaments are being used to create the necessary and appropriate sounds required.

Also, time is short. Practise time is even shorter. Why waste it on robotic, mindless exercises/drills, when we could be making music? To compare a pianist to a tennis player is a crazy comparison and the sort of mind-set that Hanon encourages. Different muscles. Different SUPPORT from the rest of the body. Different workload.

Finally - do students sit for hours and hours doing drills? Yes, yes they do. I've heard many. I've heard many develop injuries through hours of mindless drills at top institutes in London (RAM and Trinity). That mind-set is largely discouraged in the UK these days.

Same here - I disagree with you on almost every point.

But I'll grant you that you completely misunderstood some important factors in the above arguments.



Have a listen to any great pianist playing lots of scales & arpeggios in K545.

Can you set a metronome to any of them? Go on, try it.

BTW, I don't mean changing tempo as in abrupt tempo change. I don't even mean rubato.

I mean 'breathing', something akin to what singers would do if they could take breaths without breaking the line.

Ligaments??

Are you sure you don't mean muscles?

Aren't you forgetting something very important - something I know very well, having treated many singers myself? That their musical instrument is part of their body, in fact, part of their respiratory system?


Tennis players practise drills so that every movement becomes instinctive - including footwork - so that they don't have to think about specific movements when playing, and instead concentrate on getting to, and hitting the ball.

A pianist practises exercises so that every movement - whether in scaler passages or some other common pianistic pattern of passagework - becomes instinctive, so that they don't have to consciously think about each individual movement of fingers, and can focus instead on playing and shaping the music. That is, making music.


I should certainly hope so.

You CAN be musical without altering tempo. Go on, try it (!?)

With regards to ligaments. I meant ligaments.

But he wasn't talking about Hanon, was he? That's what this thread is about, I believe, and the virtue or not of mechanical exercises used to develop technique.

Regards,

I think that taking a exceptional player like Richter or any other one as an example has little relevance anyway. None (no offense - well maybe an extremely small percentage) of the adult beginners have near the abilities of such a player, so whatever was his practice, it is not necessarily a good example to follow.

Yes, indeed. Richter is particularly known for practicing repertoire pieces only, just as Godowsky and others from that camp. Richter said that in his entire life he had no more than 10 hours of out-of-piece scales practice and just a short period of practicing Burgmüller etudes when he was learning. I cited his words because I had an impression that he was accused of a mechanical practice of pieces. Most probably Richter never played Hanon exercises neither mechanically nor musically.

Yes, indeed. Richter is particularly known for practicing repertoire pieces only, just as Godowsky and others from that camp. Richter said that in his entire life he had no more than 10 hours of out-of-piece scales practice and just a short period of practicing Burgmüller etudes when he was learning. I cited his words because I had an impression that he was accused of a mechanical practice of pieces. Most probably Richter never played Hanon exercises neither mechanically nor musically.

I wonder if Richter can be taken at his word. Decades ago, when I was studying violin with a Russian teacher, an émigré from Moscow, he told me a story of when Richter was interviewed by a local television station. The interviewer asked Richter how much he practiced, and he replied something like, one or two hours a day, nobody needs to practice more than that. Then, the interviewer asked his wife how much he practiced, and she said, what, he never stops!

My violin teacher told me that that apartment building in Moscow was famous because nobody in it got a good night’a sleep. My teacher said that Richter played the same passages, twenty or thirty times in a row, always at ear splitting volumes.

You’re from Moscow, perhaps you have better sources than I have. Do you know anybody who lived in Richter’s building, perhaps the poor souls who lived downstairs from his apartment? Hahah!

I wonder if Richter can be taken at his word. Decades ago, when I was studying violin with a Russian teacher, an émigré from Moscow, he told me a story of when Richter was interviewed by a local television station. The interviewer asked Richter how much he practiced, and he replied something like, one or two hours a day, nobody needs to practice more than that. Then, the interviewer asked his wife how much he practiced, and she said, what, he never stops!

My violin teacher told me that that apartment building in Moscow was famous because nobody in it got a good night’a sleep. My teacher said that Richter played the same passages, twenty or thirty times in a row, always at ear splitting volumes.

You’re from Moscow, perhaps you have better sources than I have. Do you know anybody who lived in Richter’s building, perhaps the poor souls who lived downstairs from his apartment? Hahah!

I believe there was some misunderstanding in that interview. When describing his practice routine Richter said, 'I always play from the morning until 3 p.m. ... When I feel desire or I'm in a hurry before a concert I play up to 12 hours a day'. And this was quite a well-known fact about him, he was always considered workaholic and he didn't deny it.

There is something not right about your statement. Many of these exception pianists have written books. Some of them were teachers. For example, I've never heard anyone say that a "normal" pianist should not bother reading Heinrich Neuhaus' Art of Piano Playing because Neuhaus was too good of a pianist and he is not necessarily a good example to follow.

I think you have a particular talent at reading between the lines the hidden meaning of one's comment. I am flattered that you think I have such a deep level of thinking and that I mean so many things in just a few lines but I have to confess that unhapilly for me I would have to disappoint you; my comment was quite pragmatic and in sequence with the thread. It all started with the usual discussion whether Hanon and drills in general are usefull; then it went on to the argument of wether someone like Richter was or not practising with drills. So I'll repeat my comments: 1-we do not have any detailed log of what Richter may have used as practice materials when he was at the beginner level; 2-assuming we had that, it would be of little relevance for most adult beginners/intermediate level players, as Richer had exceptional abilities and therefore whatever he was doing is not necessarily an example to follow. BTW given the exceptional skills of Richer, It is anyway very difficult to sort out what is the contribution of his practice and what is due to his talent.

My violin teacher told me that that apartment building in Moscow was famous because nobody in it got a good night’a sleep. My teacher said that Richter played the same passages, twenty or
I’d love to see that interview. Do you think it could be found? I am surprised that my teacher would have misunderstood it, especially the part about telling people that a few hours of practice a day was sufficient, but perhaps he did.

I think that the people downstairs could have written a book with the title, “Living Under Richter’s Piano,” or something like that. There was an article in the New York Times about people who lived next to musicians. I believe the guy living underneath Murray Perahia complained about the practicing, and Perahia, said, it’s my life, what can I do, and I’m playing Carnegie Hall tonight.

Perhaps you can help me. I saw a Russian film at a film festival many years ago. It showed Russian army troops showing up in a small remote village asking for water. The villagers showed the troops a small fountain, with a little water gushing out of it. The troops got dynamite, and blew up the well. After that, there was a tremendous amount of water for one minute, and then nothing. With no water, the villagers have to relocate to Moscow. It goes on. Any idea of the title of this movie? I want to tell it to a Russian friend but I cannot remember the title.

You know, poor people in that apartment building have had no rest even after Richter's death, because his apartment was turned into Richter museum and his rather large practice room was turned into small concert hall. At least his apartment is located on the last floor of the building.

I haven't seen that film or that interview, sorry.

Ah. You were talking about what Richter "does" vs. what he "says." That was not clear in your post above since there are posts also above mentioning what these pianists say, also.