Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
129 registered members (ACSlater, Carey, AZNpiano, Animisha, anotherscott, almo82, akc42, 37 invisible), 1,936 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
When to Have Regulation? #2843140
04/28/19 07:57 AM
04/28/19 07:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 17
Long Island, New York
R
RayR3004 Offline OP
Junior Member
RayR3004  Offline OP
Junior Member
R

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 17
Long Island, New York
Last year, 2018, I purchased a 2007 Kawai K5 upright. I love the piano. Currently I’m working on Moonlight Sonata and am having some issues with my pianissimo. Some hammers sound like they’re “rebounding” off the strings. My teacher said this is part of the limitations of a verticle’s action, but part of Kawai’s documentation regarding their Millenium III action specifically mentions the added control with pianissimo. Question: Does this sound like a regulating issue? Is it possible to play pianissimo on a vertical successfully? The piano is very clean with hardly any indentations on the hammers. It was not beat up. I doubt it has ever been regulated. Is it time? How can I tell? Is there a “test”?

Last edited by RayR3004; 04/28/19 07:59 AM.

Kawai K5, Yamaha P115 digital, Yamaha HX1 Electone
(ad 800)
PTG Convention 2019
PTG 2019 Convention Tuscon AZ
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843153
04/28/19 08:40 AM
04/28/19 08:40 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,842
Scotland
D
David Boyce Online content
Gold Subscriber
David Boyce  Online Content
Gold Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,842
Scotland
Your teacher isn't right.

When you say "rebounding", do you mean it sounds as if the hammers are double-striking? (the phenomenon is called "hammer bobbling"). You will be able to see this happening (it happens especially in pianissimo playing) if you take the top panel off the piano and watch the action in motion as you play.

I had a client a few years back, with a Kawai upright (I forget which) that was only a couple of years old, and had this problem, and others techs had not fixed it. I had attended Don Mannino's excellent Kawai upright regulation class at MARC in Bethlehem PA in 2011 and I took the upright regulating sheets with me. Everything seemed to be to spec, but still the "bobbling" on tentative or pianissimo playing. In the end, the thing that completely solved it, was slightly tightening the bridle tapes by slightly bending the bridle tape wires.

I hate hammer bobbling - it ruins any feeling of control, and takes away much of the pleasure of playing.

Regulation will fix this, and you will have a super piano.

Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843181
04/28/19 09:52 AM
04/28/19 09:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 491
Maine, USA
R
Rick_Parks Offline
Full Member
Rick_Parks  Offline
Full Member
R

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 491
Maine, USA
Agreed with David on this.
Without seeing what you are talking about, it is hard to definitely answer that what you are feeling is in fact regulation issues...BUT- definitely- IF the piano has never been regulated, then yes, you need to get it regulated. It will probably solve the issue you are trying to explain. It will certainly greatly improve the play of your instrument.

And, you should not only be able to play p, but also pp on the vertical, without a bobbling hammer...ppp might be a bit too much to ask of a vertical without getting those "ghost notes" once in a while.

This man seems to be able to accomplish teaching pianissimo play on a vertical without too much difficulty:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxb8juWQdcQ


Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843238
04/28/19 02:00 PM
04/28/19 02:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,279
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Online content
2000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,279
New Hampshire
That's a really good video Rick. Thx for posting it. Gotta work on that myself.

On the Kawai, I have had this problem consistently, and I "believe" it is primarily due to the ecsaine leather substitute. I have found it far less on pianos with good leather on the catches.

I'll have to try the bridle strap adjustment though. Good idea.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843240
04/28/19 02:08 PM
04/28/19 02:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,515
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,515
Oakland
This is a result of the stupid way that vertical actions are made these days, with the spring loop butt springs. I posted a method of springing the hammer butts that takes less labor than the spring loops, that nobody seems to have thought of using during manufacture.

One of these days I will have to get hold of an upright and rebuild the action with springs put in properly. I think I could even put in the extra spring like the old Mason & Hamlin actions to get a real repetition action.


Semipro Tech
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843267
04/28/19 05:00 PM
04/28/19 05:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,279
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Online content
2000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,279
New Hampshire
I also feel that part of the problem is the use of ecsaine synthetic leather rather than good quality real leather (though I understand why the manufacturers use it).

BDB, can you show that again? I remember it vaguely but would like to review it. Seems to me I thought it was a decent idea.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 04/28/19 05:02 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843271
04/28/19 05:28 PM
04/28/19 05:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 17
Long Island, New York
R
RayR3004 Offline OP
Junior Member
RayR3004  Offline OP
Junior Member
R

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 17
Long Island, New York
Thank you all for your advice. I’ll set up an appointment with my tech.


Kawai K5, Yamaha P115 digital, Yamaha HX1 Electone
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: Rick_Parks] #2843272
04/28/19 05:35 PM
04/28/19 05:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 17
Long Island, New York
R
RayR3004 Offline OP
Junior Member
RayR3004  Offline OP
Junior Member
R

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 17
Long Island, New York
Yes. I’ve watched his video. He has a good technic. Thanks


Kawai K5, Yamaha P115 digital, Yamaha HX1 Electone
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843288
04/28/19 07:12 PM
04/28/19 07:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,308
Old Hangtown California
G
Gene Nelson Online content
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
G

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,308
Old Hangtown California
I don’t regulate too many upright actions but if you tighten up the bridal tape to eliminate double bounce isn’t this an indication of possible excess friction in the hammer flange?
Usually setting checking close and squaring the check with the catcher is a remedy, assuming letoff and key travel and hammer travel are correct. You want to be certain the jack clears the hammer butt at the end of the key stroke.
All the bridal should do is keep the jack from falling to far allowing it to jam on the butt.
Upright regulators correct me if I’m wrong.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: P W Grey] #2843293
04/28/19 08:37 PM
04/28/19 08:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,515
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,515
Oakland
Originally Posted by P W Grey
I also feel that part of the problem is the use of ecsaine synthetic leather rather than good quality real leather (though I understand why the manufacturers use it).

BDB, can you show that again? I remember it vaguely but would like to review it. Seems to me I thought it was a decent idea.

Pwg


The photo is here.

Last edited by BDB; 04/28/19 08:38 PM.

Semipro Tech
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: David Boyce] #2843374
04/29/19 08:53 AM
04/29/19 08:53 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 17
Long Island, New York
R
RayR3004 Offline OP
Junior Member
RayR3004  Offline OP
Junior Member
R

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 17
Long Island, New York
Yes David. That's exactly what I'm talking about, "bobbling." I've never noticed it while playing at louder volumes. This is the first time I've come accross it. In fact, the feel of the action along with the sound of the piano, was what sold me. It just really spoke to me, so I was a little disappointed when this situation came up. Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.


Kawai K5, Yamaha P115 digital, Yamaha HX1 Electone
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843429
04/29/19 11:28 AM
04/29/19 11:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,515
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,515
Oakland
What happens in these actions is that the hammer overbalances the spring and falls towards the string before letoff at soft volumes. It leaves the jack, hits the string, and bounces back to the top of the jack, which lets off and makes the hammer hit the string again. Bending the bridle wire will hold the hammer back a little more, at the cost of the keys going all haywire if you use the soft pedal. Increasing the weight of the catcher might help.


Semipro Tech
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843464
04/29/19 01:05 PM
04/29/19 01:05 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,842
Scotland
D
David Boyce Online content
Gold Subscriber
David Boyce  Online Content
Gold Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,842
Scotland
When I spoke of the instance where I corrected bobbling by bending bridle wires, it was only by a very very small amount. That was on a quite new piano, with all other distances - key dip, blow, set-off, check, all being to specification.

Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843540
04/29/19 06:56 PM
04/29/19 06:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,632
Canberra, ACT, Australia
C
Chris Leslie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Chris Leslie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,632
Canberra, ACT, Australia
BDB, I think I can see how your butt spring works, but I can't see how this would work any differently to a normal spring rail system. The only difference is that the spring is attached to the butt and bears on the rail rather than attached to the rail and bearing on the butt. Therefore, how can it change the bobbling problem on very soft strokes. I think I do see however that a spring system that does have a definite force variability across the stroke from weakest at rest to strongest at the point of string contact should in theory reduce bobbling, but spring rail systems have that anyway.

I can however see how it could be used to retrofit an existing butt/loop system.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843544
04/29/19 07:11 PM
04/29/19 07:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,515
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,515
Oakland
The problem with the loops is that the loops move along with the spring, and so instead of the steadily increasing pressure of Hook's Law, you get a variable pressure.

My method can be used to retrofit spring rails, as well.


Semipro Tech
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843582
04/29/19 10:33 PM
04/29/19 10:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,205
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
E

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,205
Seattle, WA USA
Isn't it interesting that bobbling hammers on old upright pianos are a rarity and they are commonplace with veritcals from about 1980 on.

What has changed?

Yes. the loop springs are weaker than the hammer rail sping type typical of the standard American upright action. But the hammers are heavier too and this alters the center-or-gravity of the hammer and butt assembly so much that they easily fall towards the strings rather than away. The CG is worst starting just above the overstrung section.

In addition the to bridle wire mentioned above, it helps to reduce lost motion to a minimum and set the escapement 4mm or more from the string.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843605
04/30/19 12:27 AM
04/30/19 12:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,515
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,515
Oakland
I have not been able to confirm that hammers are heavier than they were in old pianos, which is a vague statement at best. Hammers have not been uniform since uprights were made, so if the weight of the hammers were a factor in this double-striking, it would be more of a factor at one end of the piano, which is not the case. Old pianos with spring loops were less prone, but they often had things like auxiliary jack springs, or a short bore with extra mass behind the shank which helped.

An auxiliary jack spring could be added fairly easily in the same way that I added the spring to the butt, and that would improve repetition.


Semipro Tech
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843618
04/30/19 01:11 AM
04/30/19 01:11 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,632
Canberra, ACT, Australia
C
Chris Leslie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Chris Leslie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,632
Canberra, ACT, Australia
Many older German overdampers have no butt springs at all and do not have the ppp bobbling problem. In these pianos the action rail is positioned closer to the strings compared to under dampers. This causes the hammer centre of gravity to be always causing the hammers to fall backwards when the action is in the piano. Hammers could still possibly race away from the jack on ppp strokes in this case however. If so then why does it not happen with with those butt spring-less overdampers?


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: RayR3004] #2843619
04/30/19 01:16 AM
04/30/19 01:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,632
Canberra, ACT, Australia
C
Chris Leslie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Chris Leslie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,632
Canberra, ACT, Australia
BDB, I am expecting to do another Yamaha butt loop job some time soon. I am willing to try your butt spring idea. However, I would like a better explanation of why your idea is better than a normal American spring rail at reducing ppp bobbling.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: When to Have Regulation? [Re: Chris Leslie] #2843625
04/30/19 01:52 AM
04/30/19 01:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,515
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,515
Oakland
It is not better than the spring rail at reducing bobbling. It is just easier to do. In the example, I just drilled a hole at a 45° angle from the back of the butt through the side, inserted the spring and bent the tail to hold it in place. Bending the spring to center it behind the shank locks it in position.It struck me that the spring grove on the butt that I photographed was holding the spring in place, so I sanded it off and tried it again. It holds in place reasonably well, but if you have a problem, a dab of glue from a glue gun will make it more secure.

You will need to make a grooved back to put on (or replace) the damper stop rail (corresponding to a spring rail), but that is just a piece of wood with holes drilled in it at the position of the hammers, cut in half. So you will have two of them, and you can save the extra for the next time you do the job.

I think I will try it out with a Schwander action Kimball studio we picked up for a non-profit. Springs keep breaking on their pianos, because of the lousy storage facilities, so it makes sense to try it.


Semipro Tech
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Kawai CA97
by Pattinator. 07/23/19 01:58 PM
Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
by Randompianist2. 07/23/19 01:17 PM
Understring felt
by Nedi. 07/23/19 12:04 PM
YDP-161 New Life
by chipsneeze. 07/23/19 11:04 AM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics193,145
Posts2,851,089
Members93,960
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1