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Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2842781
04/26/19 10:27 PM
04/26/19 10:27 PM
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Zaphod Offline
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VPC2 wish list:

1: A flat top instead of a curved one, and power button on the side not the top (Or even better, underneath).

2 : Some might say a better pedal unit. But I find it fine so far.

3 : A slightly less perfunktory music stand.

4 : Actually, perhaps the ebony finish for the black keys that the MP has. But again, I like the standard on the VPC1 fine.

Had to dig deep for those. They could of course redesign the case, make longer keys or put in the GF action that the MP has and increase the weight by 10lb. And then realise that's pointless as they already have the MP.

I guess why not buy an MP if you are after a "VPC2"? Anything the VPC1 can do, the MP can do, as far as I can tell. I can't see why it would make business sense for them to make a VPC2. If they did, I doubt that at first there would be the hoped for price difference as I would suspect the VPC2 price would approach the MP price.



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Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: Jethro] #2842796
04/26/19 11:23 PM
04/26/19 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro

Not so long ago Kawai for example, changed the pivot point on their RX-2 line when they introduced the Kawai GX to replace the RX series grand to make it easier to play when the finger is closer to the fall board. This may have been due to their market research that indicated that first time buyers might prefer a lighter action like those found in Yamaha's (when compared to Kawai in general).


Pivot length and the weight of the action are really different issues.

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: johnstaf] #2842800
04/27/19 12:21 AM
04/27/19 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Jethro

Not so long ago Kawai for example, changed the pivot point on their RX-2 line when they introduced the Kawai GX to replace the RX series grand to make it easier to play when the finger is closer to the fall board. This may have been due to their market research that indicated that first time buyers might prefer a lighter action like those found in Yamaha's (when compared to Kawai in general).


Pivot length and the weight of the action are really different issues.

I guess I never thought too deeply about it, but in general basic physics applied here was you were giving the pianist a longer lever arm to work with relative to the axis of rotation. Simply for any given weight of action a longer lever arm gives you were torque whether it be at the end of the keys or closer to the fall board relative to pianos with shorter key lengths from the axis. I saw it basically as a see saw. The farther you were away from the pivot point the easier it was for your side to go down.


Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: aphexdisklavier] #2842802
04/27/19 12:49 AM
04/27/19 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Due to many opinions that the VPC has such a hard action , I was so unhappy that I stopped by a piano dealer today. I studied music and had piano as a minor subject. At the university I had a lot of experience with very different pianos and grand pianos. So today took a weight of 63g with me to objectively measure a downweight of a piano key. I went through all Kawai keyboards through GF, GF2, Millenium and various Yamaha digital pianos. I also played real grand pianos from Kawai, Yamaha and Bösendorfer. Here my opinion:
Most of all I was shocked by the GF (in MP11se). Yes it is a bit lighter than RM3 in the VPC but the feeling was that I see the keyboard as one of the worst of all pianos I have tried today. It's very spongy and slow in response. No other keyboard has such a long uplift time (the opposite of a brilliant keystroke). In my opinion, the counterweights are simply not optimal. The weight (downweight) of the Millenium action is similar to the RM3, but reacts a bit faster. With the acoustic grand pianos I had rather heavier actions than those of VPC (also a Kawai Grand was much heavier). What really amazed me was the fact that the actual weighting (which I had checked with my weight) and the feel/ touch often diverged completely. All in all, I am very happy with my VPC. It's a very good action, faster and more brilliant than GF and can keep up with all the other DP I tried today.


Your somewhat more objective findings are in line with what I’ve experienced having played just the VPC1 for a week now. The weighting is fine but don’t let anyone fool you. This is not the equivalent to a $75,000 piano’s action nor even the millennium 3 action found on many of Kawais lower to midrange acoustic pianos. The overall feel of the VPC1 while passable as a stand in to practice pieces slowly (or quickly) it is less responsive and as you said spongy/mushy compared to a good Japanese or Renner action. Still it may be closer to an acoustics action than say other slabs/digital piano, but I have a feeling these manufacturers are trying to cater to a people who don’t regularly play on acoustic grands and they just design digital keyboards based on what these people prefer or what they believe is a good action/touch/weight. I returned home this weekend to play a little on my soon to be sold RX2 and it’ssuperior to the VPC1 on several levels. I cannot stress enough if you want to learn the piano well you eventually need to buy a decent acoustic or that should be the goal imo.

Last edited by Jethro; 04/27/19 12:52 AM.

Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2842816
04/27/19 03:44 AM
04/27/19 03:44 AM
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It would be nice to have a brand proper stand with fixed tri-pedal...
ES-110 has the HML-1 stand and F-350 pedals...
ES-8 has the HM-4 stand and the F-301 pedals...
Something similar would be nice to have a decent digital piano cabinet look (but more important the fixed position of the pedals).

...also a lid would be perfect to keep dust away (and on par with the cabinet look)

Best Regards!

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: Pedro Ruiz] #2842856
04/27/19 07:17 AM
04/27/19 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Pedro Ruiz
It would be nice to have a brand proper stand with fixed tri-pedal...
ES-110 has the HML-1 stand and F-350 pedals...
ES-8 has the HM-4 stand and the F-301 pedals...
Something similar would be nice to have a decent digital piano cabinet look (but more important the fixed position of the pedals).

...also a lid would be perfect to keep dust away (and on par with the cabinet look)

Best Regards!

I like this! I think many of us suspect that a VPC2 is somewhat unlikely, but a 'furniture' stand/triipedal package is an excellent idea. A lid might be tough to do.

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2842896
04/27/19 09:44 AM
04/27/19 09:44 AM
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With most keyboards i see a lot of room for improvement...

But with the vpc1, idont see it.
Its got an incredible keybed..
And it looks nice..

The only thing i can thinkoff, is making the round top a flat one, thatseasier to put something on it.

But in general, the vpc1 is perfectly suited for whats it meant to do.

Last edited by Bachus; 04/27/19 09:45 AM.
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: Jethro] #2842900
04/27/19 09:50 AM
04/27/19 09:50 AM
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Quote
What really amazed me was the fact that the actual weighting (which I had checked with my weight) and the feel/ touch often diverged completely.


This should not be surprising.I think a lot of it has to do with the difference between weight and inertia. Playing a note softly is also playing a not slowly, and down weight is something you will feel. Play the same note quickly and inertia is going to have a much bigger role.

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: NormB] #2843130
04/28/19 06:35 AM
04/28/19 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by NormB
Quote
What really amazed me was the fact that the actual weighting (which I had checked with my weight) and the feel/ touch often diverged completely.


This should not be surprising.I think a lot of it has to do with the difference between weight and inertia. Playing a note softly is also playing a not slowly, and down weight is something you will feel. Play the same note quickly and inertia is going to have a much bigger role.


absolutely!!! In general its so difficult to discribe an action in words. There are really so many components that makes up an action.

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2847122
05/10/19 03:19 PM
05/10/19 03:19 PM
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V3 sound posted some sound examples of the piano sound module played on the VPC1. I can really recommend that module in combination with the VPC1. And together much cheaper as a MP11se!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8ZuhUdfQJg

Last edited by aphexdisklavier; 05/10/19 03:19 PM.
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2847132
05/10/19 03:45 PM
05/10/19 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Absolute musts:
- GF2 action
- Speaker system similar to that of ES-series. (Whatever one might say, my ES7 has perfectly capable sound system and I'd love to have that one in a controller)
- Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, or anything similar interface that will allow the velocity curves and other settings be controlled in great details from a mobile device with a dedicated app.

Nice to have (and not crazy wishes):
- Flat top to accommodate a laptop
- Concealed buttons or no visible buttons at all (achievable if the mobile app functionality is implemented)
- Dedicated stand with three pedals

Nice to have (but won't ever be implemented by Kawai or any other piano manufacturer)
- Support for putting replaceable plugin boards with sounds, e.g. putting the latest generation of Kawai piano sounds without the need to buy entirely new digital piano, or at least being able to upload sounds to an internal flash as Nords
- Embedded audio interface
- Support for putting some small PC (e.g. Raspberry Pi or something that supports VST-s) and routing its audio output to the speaker system, sending MIDI, etc. all that hidden inside the cabinet so that the whole setup looks very clean and neat with no hint of electronics


- A professional instrument should never have speakers in it.
- Bluetooth etc: introduces latency.
- Plug-in boards: all the companies have tried plugin boards: Yamaha, Roland, Korg and they failed.
- No to audio.

VPC1 is already a really really good controller. It just needs a flat surface to accommodate a controller or an iPad. Maybe better key actions and better controlling features such as zoning and maybe drawbars...

Extra weight for mediocre speakers and amp is not really appreciated and no one wants to pay for it. If Kawai wants to put Adam monitors or something better yes it would be cool but it will add so many lbs of weight and many thousands to the price.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2847135
05/10/19 03:52 PM
05/10/19 03:52 PM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content OP
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That’s a very old thread. You’re replying to the very first message I posted smile I really don’t care much about VPC anymore.

But you didn’t get the Bluetooth thing as I explained it. It’s for setting parameters of the keyboard through e.g. an iPad app. It’s not about Bluetooth MIDI. Currently you need to connect a PC with USB to the VPC1 in order to upload custom curves.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2849720
05/18/19 06:14 PM
05/18/19 06:14 PM
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Here is no wish list but a list of advantages for the VPC1:

-best designed model of all master keyboards or digital pianos or whatever (puristically -without frills or superfluous buttons)

-I like the golden kawai logo it makes the VPC very noble (compared to the silver logos of the MP series), the keys are reflected in the front (like on a real grand piano)

-as a composer you can place sheet music on the large surface and write notes easily (where else is that possible?)

-for me the keyaction is much better than the MP series and most other digital pianos/masterkeyboards (yes I checked it out and compared them)

-touch curves editor for Mac and PC is so important to create perfect own touch curves for various VST Instruments. (no MP can do that either). Only with a perfectly written touch curve you can create all the tonal nuances of any VST instrument.

-you can use the midi and usb ports simultaneously

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2849744
05/18/19 07:58 PM
05/18/19 07:58 PM
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Zaphod Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Currently you need to connect a PC with USB to the VPC1 in order to upload custom curves.


Given that the VPC will be plugged in to the PC by default with a USB cable, if not to power it, then to run a virtual instrument, I don't see where the Bluetooth quite comes in to play. Am I missing something?

Your suggestions are good in principle, but I personally think the VPC1 is best left as it is for those people who require a minimalist approach. If your suggestions were implemented it would be a good keyboard, but it would no longer be anything to do with a VPC1, it would be a completely different model.

A bit like saying "The 1978 Ford Mustang is a really good car, but it could do with traction control, power steering and anti lock brakes."

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: Zaphod] #2849765
05/18/19 10:18 PM
05/18/19 10:18 PM
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CyberGene Online content OP
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Originally Posted by Zaphod
Your suggestions are good in principle, but I personally think the VPC1 is best left as it is for those people who require a minimalist approach. If your suggestions were implemented it would be a good keyboard, but it would no longer be anything to do with a VPC1, it would be a completely different model.

Indeed, it would be a VPC2, as is the title of this thread. Or did I miss anything?

As to Bluetooth, some people may use the VPC to control a module or another keyboard through a MIDI cable but I agree that’s not an important feature.

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/18/19 10:26 PM.

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Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2849904
05/19/19 09:45 AM
05/19/19 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene

Indeed, it would be a VPC2, as is the title of this thread. Or did I miss anything?


One would expect the VPC2 to be a similar model with minor upgrades - perhaps more like your "Nice to have" list. But your "Essential" list effectively changes it in to a completely different model, therefore pointless to associate it with the "VPC" badge.

Surely the MP is effectively the VPC2?

I think sometimes a company comes out with something that simply doesn't require or suit an upgrade, the VPC1 is perhaps one of these examples.


Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2849910
05/19/19 09:58 AM
05/19/19 09:58 AM
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Anyway, I said that already but probably have to say it again. I don’t care anymore about VPC1 or its successor. I was interested two years ago, not anymore since I vastly prefer real piano actions and I purchased a much better instrument after all. You can safely ignore my original wish list since I won’t argue or defend it. It’s actually great its owners find it perfect and not needing a single upgrade smile Rarely in the throw away digital piano world are timeless products like that created.

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/19/19 09:59 AM.

My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2849924
05/19/19 10:35 AM
05/19/19 10:35 AM
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Cyber Gene : I am not interested if you care or not about the VPC. I only want to post my thoughts in that thread. Maybe others care about it.. ;)))

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: aphexdisklavier] #2849929
05/19/19 10:50 AM
05/19/19 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Cyber Gene : I am not interested if you care or not about the VPC. I only want to post my thoughts in that thread. Maybe others care about it.. ;)))

laugh Sure! I just responded to comments related to my original wish list. At the time I wanted those features. I don’t want them anymore wink


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
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