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Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? #2842587
04/26/19 08:58 AM
04/26/19 08:58 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 200
Minto, NB Canada
Duaner Offline OP
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Duaner  Offline OP
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Posts: 200
Minto, NB Canada
I have a customer who has an apartment size vertical the name of which escapes me, sorry. It is not that old perhaps 20 years or so. It also has a Damp Chaser system in it that I did not install but have been maintaining ever visit (changing pads, conditioner, etc.).

I have been tuning his piano for sometime now every six months on schedule. It could be every three months in my opinion as "many" of the tuning pins WILL NOT stay in place. I have pounded them in as close as I dare, I have glued them at least the ones those that quit obviously need it most (that would be honestly at this point 1/4 of them).

I was at his place the other day for an appointment and during the visit I noticed very quickly that the pins were worse than ever. I addressed this with him (I have before too) and I think he understands the situation as we speak different languages and I need to almost "act-out" the scenario of how the pins will not hold.

I think at this point all I can do is get the piano on its back and CA glue all the pins as there are so many that will not grip. The problem I think I may run into with this is that since I have tried to overcome this loose pin situation by gluing many of the loose pins in its upright position that when I get it on its back the glue may not seep down along the shaft of the pins gravity wise because of the gluing done previously.

Looking for some advice on this situation. I am out of ideas and since there are so many pins that are loose at this time there's no sense in taking some out and dealing with them individually. What do you think about this situation I'm facing?


Duane Graves
www.pianotuningfredericton.com

"Pushin 70...still haven fun I think..."
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Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: Duaner] #2842593
04/26/19 09:32 AM
04/26/19 09:32 AM
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New Hampshire
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Duane,

Say: "Respectfully, it may be time to think about getting a better piano...I've done all I can with this one at this point".

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: Duaner] #2842595
04/26/19 09:33 AM
04/26/19 09:33 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,755
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daniokeeper Offline
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This is odd.... Only 20 years old, a DC system installed, pins tapped in, and treated with CA glue.

If the loose pins are in a row, you might be looking at a cracked pinblock.

If you are reasonably sure the block is not cracked, then you might want to escalate to the next level.

You could try carefully removing the becket, removing the tuning pin, and trying a sandpaper shim, swabbing the hole with a little CA glue, or reaming the hole and using an oversized pin, etc. on a few test pins to see what gives you the best result.

I'd probably try CA first.

Last edited by daniokeeper; 04/26/19 09:36 AM.

Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)

"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -Marcus Aurelius
Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: daniokeeper] #2842616
04/26/19 10:37 AM
04/26/19 10:37 AM
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Michigan
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kpembrook Offline
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Originally Posted by daniokeeper
This is odd.... Only 20 years old, a DC system installed, pins tapped in, and treated with CA glue.

If the loose pins are in a row, you might be looking at a cracked pinblock.

If you are reasonably sure the block is not cracked, then you might want to escalate to the next level.

You could try carefully removing the becket, removing the tuning pin, and trying a sandpaper shim, swabbing the hole with a little CA glue, or reaming the hole and using an oversized pin, etc. on a few test pins to see what gives you the best result.

I'd probably try CA first.


It is odd. The piano should not be giving that kind of problem at this age. It perhaps was even a warranty issue that never was caught in time.

If the tuning pin is going to be removed, I'd certainly go with an oversize pin -- despite the fact that shims often work successfully (I've also had unsatisfactory results)

If an oversize pin is used, there is no need to ream. Frankly, I've never understood reaming... the goal is to increase torque, not to keep the same level of looseness as you started with.

If there is a split joining tuning pin holes in a row, the best repair would be to use pinblock plugs. You can get them from the Falconwood people. Otherwise, cut your own from a scrap of your favorite pinblock. However, for plugging, I think the Falconwood material would be superior.

My $.02...


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: Duaner] #2842617
04/26/19 10:41 AM
04/26/19 10:41 AM
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Old Hangtown California
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Gene Nelson Offline
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One other remote possibility:
Long ago I purchased a set of lo-torque tuning pins size 3.5 for situations like this. They have a 2.0 head and 3.5 shank.
In a situation like this if you do remove the old pin, a new oversized pin could be a better solution.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: Gene Nelson] #2842631
04/26/19 11:16 AM
04/26/19 11:16 AM
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Michigan
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kpembrook Offline
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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
One other remote possibility:
Long ago I purchased a set of lo-torque tuning pins size 3.5 for situations like this. They have a 2.0 head and 3.5 shank.
In a situation like this if you do remove the old pin, a new oversized pin could be a better solution.

Yes, I like the Lo-Torque pins and that is what I use in all situations where I'm restringing with the existing block. When restringing, I always go up 2 sizes but the 3.5 size is an excellent option in a repair situation such as described in this thread since going up one size will generally not give much torque increase and if it is a newer block, going up 2 sizes may be more than ideal. They also have a 4.5 size where going up 2 sizes (like in 30-year-old Kawai grands) is not enough.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: daniokeeper] #2842663
04/26/19 12:50 PM
04/26/19 12:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,570
KZ, Uralsk
Maximillyan Online shocked
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KZ, Uralsk
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
This is odd.... Only 20 years old, a DC system installed, pins tapped in, and treated with CA glue.

If the loose pins are in a row, you might be looking at a cracked pinblock.

If you are reasonably sure the block is not cracked, then you might want to escalate to the next level.

You could try carefully removing the becket, removing the tuning pin, and trying a sandpaper shim, swabbing the hole with a little CA glue, or reaming the hole and using an oversized pin, etc. on a few test pins to see what gives you the best result.

I'd probably try CA first.


sorry, Joe, are you did forget wrote a cardboard yet about .
Max used many shims of a cardboard here



Last edited by Maximillyan; 04/26/19 12:56 PM.
Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: Duaner] #2842685
04/26/19 02:32 PM
04/26/19 02:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,597
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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Joined: Feb 2017
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New Hampshire
Lo-torq tuning pins...👍

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: Maximillyan] #2842708
04/26/19 04:13 PM
04/26/19 04:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,755
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daniokeeper Offline
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
This is odd.... Only 20 years old, a DC system installed, pins tapped in, and treated with CA glue.

If the loose pins are in a row, you might be looking at a cracked pinblock.

If you are reasonably sure the block is not cracked, then you might want to escalate to the next level.

You could try carefully removing the becket, removing the tuning pin, and trying a sandpaper shim, swabbing the hole with a little CA glue, or reaming the hole and using an oversized pin, etc. on a few test pins to see what gives you the best result.

I'd probably try CA first.


sorry, Joe, are you did forget wrote a cardboard yet about .
Max used many shims of a cardboard here




Hi Max,

I figured you would also reply to the question. I remembered smile


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)

"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -Marcus Aurelius
Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: Duaner] #2842711
04/26/19 04:57 PM
04/26/19 04:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,733
Oakland
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BDB Offline
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There are some bad pianos out there that just do not hold a tune, especially some of the earlier Asian pianos. Not much you can do for them.


Semipro Tech
Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: Duaner] #2842724
04/26/19 05:29 PM
04/26/19 05:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,650
Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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I have had some 30 year old budget Chinese pianos that had loose pins and a full CA treatment made little difference. I suspect that the pin block was made from some rubbish material. Even if the pins were made tight then the rest of the piano is not very good. The best solution for you is to walk.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: Duaner] #2842741
04/26/19 06:37 PM
04/26/19 06:37 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,939
Scotland
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David Boyce Offline
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To replace a quarter of the tuning pins with larger, or take them out, swab the holes with CA and put them back, or fit cardboard or sandpaper shims, is a fairly substantial undertaking in terms of time, and the cost would likely be prohibitive, for what sounds like a piano of no particular quality, and twenty years old.

Plus, I'd imagine there is a fairly high chance that if a quarter of the pins are currently loose, the rest may well become so, in time.

It doesn't sound like a financially worthwhile proposition, for the owner to have anything done with this piano.

Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: David Boyce] #2842752
04/26/19 07:13 PM
04/26/19 07:13 PM
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kpembrook Offline
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
To replace a quarter of the tuning pins with larger, or take them out, swab the holes with CA and put them back, or fit cardboard or sandpaper shims, is a fairly substantial undertaking in terms of time, and the cost would likely be prohibitive, for what sounds like a piano of no particular quality, and twenty years old.

Plus, I'd imagine there is a fairly high chance that if a quarter of the pins are currently loose, the rest may well become so, in time.

It doesn't sound like a financially worthwhile proposition, for the owner to have anything done with this piano.


I had missed this aspect of the discussion earlier.
The general principle is, if you're going to repin then repin. Otherwise you typically are trying to evaluate whether a pin is "too loose" or "tight enough". Only if the other pins in the piano are really satisfactorily tight as would be normal for a 20 year old piano should one only repin a few. Otherwise, repin the whole piano. If it's not worth it, let the customer know.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: Duaner] #2842759
04/26/19 08:09 PM
04/26/19 08:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,597
New Hampshire
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They basically bought a disposable piano. They got their 20 years out of it. Time to get a real piano.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: daniokeeper] #2842782
04/26/19 10:29 PM
04/26/19 10:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,570
KZ, Uralsk
Maximillyan Online shocked
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KZ, Uralsk
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
This is odd.... Only 20 years old, a DC system installed, pins tapped in, and treated with CA glue.

If the loose pins are in a row, you might be looking at a cracked pinblock.

If you are reasonably sure the block is not cracked, then you might want to escalate to the next level.

You could try carefully removing the becket, removing the tuning pin, and trying a sandpaper shim, swabbing the hole with a little CA glue, or reaming the hole and using an oversized pin, etc. on a few test pins to see what gives you the best result.

I'd probably try CA first.


sorry, Joe, are you did forget wrote a cardboard yet about .
Max used many shims of a cardboard here




Hi Max,

I figured you would also reply to the question. I remembered smile

hi, Joe
I knew you did not forget. I could not answer. Max now has a lot of work in his own garden now.
A cardboard shim can and should save any piano, I guess. The exception is the presence of cracks in a pinblock here.
regards,

Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: BDB] #2842784
04/26/19 10:34 PM
04/26/19 10:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,570
KZ, Uralsk
Maximillyan Online shocked
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Originally Posted by BDB
There are some bad pianos out there that just do not hold a tune, especially some of the earlier Asian pianos. Not much you can do for them.

yes, BDB
And many soviet piano which have many bad pins and it's have losing wood's material of a pinblock too.

Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: Chris Leslie] #2842785
04/26/19 10:37 PM
04/26/19 10:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,570
KZ, Uralsk
Maximillyan Online shocked
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Maximillyan  Online Shocked
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
I have had some 30 year old budget Chinese pianos that had loose pins and a full CA treatment made little difference. I suspect that the pin block was made from some rubbish material. Even if the pins were made tight then the rest of the piano is not very good. The best solution for you is to walk.

yes, Chris
bad quality of wood laminate

Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: David Boyce] #2842787
04/26/19 10:41 PM
04/26/19 10:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,570
KZ, Uralsk
Maximillyan Online shocked
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Maximillyan  Online Shocked
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KZ, Uralsk
Originally Posted by David Boyce
To replace a quarter of the tuning pins with larger, or take them out, swab the holes with CA and put them back, or fit cardboard or sandpaper shims, is a fairly substantial undertaking in terms of time, and the cost would likely be prohibitive, for what sounds like a piano of no particular quality, and twenty years old.

Plus, I'd imagine there is a fairly high chance that if a quarter of the pins are currently loose, the rest may well become so, in time.


It doesn't sound like a financially worthwhile proposition, for the owner to have anything done with this piano.


I agree with your words,David Boyce.
It's must be very NEED piano for an owner piano, I'm think

Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: Duaner] #2842879
04/27/19 08:52 AM
04/27/19 08:52 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 200
Minto, NB Canada
Duaner Offline OP
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Posts: 200
Minto, NB Canada
I wish I had the name and a better grasp on the age of the piano. I have an app on my phone that with the serial number and the name it will get me close. I just never thought of it when I was there last week. It could be a little older I suppose but never-the-less the problem remains for me.

After weighing the information I have given does anyone think that by gluing all the pins while the piano is on its back (on a tilter) will help the situation or just cost the customer more money and no real fix has happened. I suppose it's an event that will have to happen as a last resort it seems to me. After that, if the repair does not happen, I'll have to walk away from the piano unless the customer wants to replace or at least plug them with sandpaper, etc, the "ultra" loose pins. Seems that the road for improvement is closing it on this particular piano.


Last edited by Duaner; 04/27/19 08:55 AM.

Duane Graves
www.pianotuningfredericton.com

"Pushin 70...still haven fun I think..."
Re: Loose Tuning Pins....what to do next?? [Re: Duaner] #2842897
04/27/19 09:45 AM
04/27/19 09:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,570
KZ, Uralsk
Maximillyan Online shocked
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Originally Posted by Duaner
Seems that the road for improvement is closing it on this particular piano.

Are you think so it's piano has individualy technics. characteristic?

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