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Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2841857
04/24/19 06:39 AM
04/24/19 06:39 AM
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Out of interest I have just measured the ratios of the key lengths in front of and behind the balance point. (1=keylength before balance point)
Grand piano action: 1/0.9
RM3: 1/0.7
GF, GF2: 1/0.45

Here you can see that the ratios of the lengths after the balance point at GF and GF2 are very short compared to a real Grand Piano Action (RM3 has a middle way here). Of course Kawai tries to balance all this with weights, but I think there is a difference between weighting and length due to a different type of swing from length or just weighting. What do you think about it?


Last edited by aphexdisklavier; 04/24/19 06:41 AM.
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Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: oivavoi] #2841867
04/24/19 07:37 AM
04/24/19 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by oivavoi
[quote=aphexdisklavier]@ oivavoi:
So whats the problem with the VPC-1? Only could be the action.
I do not agree. There is no ideal piano action. Even acoustic piano actions have differences, and there is no consensus which one is better. Pianists need different actions: that of VPC-1 is one of them and (as noted by MacMacMac and Kawai James) does not have a competitor.

On the other hand, VPC-1 is positioned as a MIDI controller, and its MIDI functionality can be drastically improved, making it an attractive tool for creators of multi-instrument DAW, music workstations, and 3rd party developers who design music UI. I think I could provide a constructive critique of VPC-1 in this direction.



Last edited by Andrew_G; 04/24/19 07:39 AM.
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: aphexdisklavier] #2841873
04/24/19 07:46 AM
04/24/19 07:46 AM
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johnstaf Offline
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Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Out of interest I have just measured the ratios of the key lengths in front of and behind the balance point. (1=keylength before balance point)
Grand piano action: 1/0.9
RM3: 1/0.7
GF, GF2: 1/0.45

Here you can see that the ratios of the lengths after the balance point at GF and GF2 are very short compared to a real Grand Piano Action (RM3 has a middle way here). Of course Kawai tries to balance all this with weights, but I think there is a difference between weighting and length due to a different type of swing from length or just weighting. What do you think about it?



You can not use weights to compensate for a short pivot. The positions of the weights are fixed, the leverage depends only on the distance between the point where the key is struck and the fulcrum.

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: oivavoi] #2841879
04/24/19 08:04 AM
04/24/19 08:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,258
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JoBert Offline
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Originally Posted by oivavoi
I'm playing on the GFII of the CS10 now. Compared with that action, I do think the VPC-1 is a step behind. Have never tried the GF action, so can't comment on that.

Small correction: Your CS10 has the GF action, not the GFII. So it's the newer GFII you haven't tried (I assume).

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: aphexdisklavier] #2841881
04/24/19 08:11 AM
04/24/19 08:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
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JoBert Offline
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Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Out of interest I have just measured the ratios of the key lengths in front of and behind the balance point. (1=keylength before balance point)
Grand piano action: 1/0.9
RM3: 1/0.7
GF, GF2: 1/0.45

Here you can see that the ratios of the lengths after the balance point at GF and GF2 are very short compared to a real Grand Piano Action (RM3 has a middle way here). Of course Kawai tries to balance all this with weights, but I think there is a difference between weighting and length due to a different type of swing from length or just weighting. What do you think about it?

I don't think that the ratio can be used as a measurement of quality (or "realness") in that manner. If that were true, then shortening the keys of the RM3 (VPC-1) even more (so that the pivot point is immediately under the fallboard) would be even better (giving you a ratio close to 1/1). But obviously, such short keys wouldn't be a good idea.

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: JoBert] #2841887
04/24/19 09:01 AM
04/24/19 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Out of interest I have just measured the ratios of the key lengths in front of and behind the balance point. (1=keylength before balance point)
Grand piano action: 1/0.9
RM3: 1/0.7
GF, GF2: 1/0.45

Here you can see that the ratios of the lengths after the balance point at GF and GF2 are very short compared to a real Grand Piano Action (RM3 has a middle way here). Of course Kawai tries to balance all this with weights, but I think there is a difference between weighting and length due to a different type of swing from length or just weighting. What do you think about it?

I don't think that the ratio can be used as a measurement of quality (or "realness") in that manner. If that were true, then shortening the keys of the RM3 (VPC-1) even more (so that the pivot point is immediately under the fallboard) would be even better (giving you a ratio close to 1/1). But obviously, such short keys wouldn't be a good idea.


Yes sure! But I think the swing of the key for down and up movements of the key is very important. The ratio of the GF does not have enough swing because of the too distant ratio on both sides of the pivot point. Think of that. Maybe thats why I like the RM3 more.

Last edited by aphexdisklavier; 04/24/19 09:07 AM.
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: JoBert] #2841892
04/24/19 09:27 AM
04/24/19 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by oivavoi
I'm playing on the GFII of the CS10 now. Compared with that action, I do think the VPC-1 is a step behind. Have never tried the GF action, so can't comment on that.

Small correction: Your CS10 has the GF action, not the GFII. So it's the newer GFII you haven't tried (I assume).


You're correct, as always! I get confused by all these actions... Anyways, to my fingers the GF action feels better than than the VPC-1 action. That's what I was trying to say smile

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2841896
04/24/19 09:42 AM
04/24/19 09:42 AM
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Kawai should have updated the VPC long ago. But evidently they aren't going to. The VPC should have the best key action they make and include newer technology like optical key sensors. Anyone who was waiting have likely moved on to something else. I'm no longer interested in VST sounds. Keyboards with built in sounds have gotten better.

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: aphexdisklavier] #2841898
04/24/19 09:57 AM
04/24/19 09:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,295
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
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Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Out of interest I have just measured the ratios of the key lengths in front of and behind the balance point. (1=keylength before balance point)
Grand piano action: 1/0.9
RM3: 1/0.7
GF, GF2: 1/0.45

Here you can see that the ratios of the lengths after the balance point at GF and GF2 are very short compared to a real Grand Piano Action (RM3 has a middle way here). Of course Kawai tries to balance all this with weights, but I think there is a difference between weighting and length due to a different type of swing from length or just weighting. What do you think about it?

I don't think that the ratio can be used as a measurement of quality (or "realness") in that manner. If that were true, then shortening the keys of the RM3 (VPC-1) even more (so that the pivot point is immediately under the fallboard) would be even better (giving you a ratio close to 1/1). But obviously, such short keys wouldn't be a good idea.


Yes sure! But I think the swing of the key for down and up movements of the key is very important. The ratio of the GF does not have enough swing because of the too distant ratio on both sides of the pivot point. Think of that. Maybe thats why I like the RM3 more.


I'm not sure I understand. The longer key makes the action easier to play and is closer to a good piano action. Some pieces where the white keys must be played near the fallboard are extremely difficult on the RM3 owing to the inadequate pivot length. I switched from the Kawai MP10 for this reason, as some pieces I wanted to play felt extremely awkward.

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: johnstaf] #2842000
04/24/19 05:19 PM
04/24/19 05:19 PM
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Jethro Offline
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Out of interest I have just measured the ratios of the key lengths in front of and behind the balance point. (1=keylength before balance point)
Grand piano action: 1/0.9
RM3: 1/0.7
GF, GF2: 1/0.45

Here you can see that the ratios of the lengths after the balance point at GF and GF2 are very short compared to a real Grand Piano Action (RM3 has a middle way here). Of course Kawai tries to balance all this with weights, but I think there is a difference between weighting and length due to a different type of swing from length or just weighting. What do you think about it?

I don't think that the ratio can be used as a measurement of quality (or "realness") in that manner. If that were true, then shortening the keys of the RM3 (VPC-1) even more (so that the pivot point is immediately under the fallboard) would be even better (giving you a ratio close to 1/1). But obviously, such short keys wouldn't be a good idea.


Yes sure! But I think the swing of the key for down and up movements of the key is very important. The ratio of the GF does not have enough swing because of the too distant ratio on both sides of the pivot point. Think of that. Maybe thats why I like the RM3 more.


I'm not sure I understand. The longer key makes the action easier to play and is closer to a good piano action. Some pieces where the white keys must be played near the fallboard are extremely difficult on the RM3 owing to the inadequate pivot length. I switched from the Kawai MP10 for this reason, as some pieces I wanted to play felt extremely awkward.

I find no awkwardness at all playing the VPC1 close to the fall board. I feel as much ease playing fast pieces on the VPC1 as I do on my acoustic grand (RX-2). Honestly, I'm having a hard time understanding what people have issue with in regards to the action. I have/feel no difficulty when playing close to the fallboard. It feels fine to me and it's actually lighter than the millenium 3 action I have in my RX-2 and the SK2 that I'm buying (which feel nearly identical to me).


Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2842103
04/24/19 10:56 PM
04/24/19 10:56 PM
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Zaphod Offline
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VPC1 feels like a piano to me.

There's no problem playing the VPC near the fallboard as far as I'm concerned. It's just not a light action there due to the pivot length, which is not inadequate by any means, merely slightly on the heavier side. I've played much much heavier acoustic pianos.

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2842290
04/25/19 11:03 AM
04/25/19 11:03 AM
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Please remember that everyone has different hands, different technique, and different repertoire.
Longer vs shorter fingers, fatter vs thinner fingers, long-fingered technique vs curled "tennis ball" technique, pulling at the keys vs pushing at the keys, upwards/downwards wrist movement vs inwards/outwards arm movement, etc. There is so much variation in hands and technique that it makes total sense to me why some aren't affected by shorter pivot length and others are.

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2842312
04/25/19 12:15 PM
04/25/19 12:15 PM
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Posts: 17
Pamplona, Spain
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Shorter pivot point should be less realistic, as real pianos (grand or upright) pivot point of the keys is far deeper into the furniture (and hard to measure because of that).

It's no surprise that the most realistic actions, hybrids on the Yamaha AvantGrands and Kawai Novus, is the same length as the real ones... So, IMHO, shorter pivot point is worst.


We all will love to see an update to a better action... But GranFeel action is used on the MP11 and the difference in prize between the MP11 and its soundless version counterpart could be minimal and not worth it...
Wandering if the GF II action would be implemented in some stage digital piano (such as MP12) in a future.

Best Regards!

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: Pedro Ruiz] #2842362
04/25/19 03:15 PM
04/25/19 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Pedro Ruiz
Shorter pivot point should be less realistic, as real pianos (grand or upright) pivot point of the keys is far deeper into the furniture (and hard to measure because of that).!


Thats simply wrong. The VPC1 pivot is similar to a upright piano. see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QIvuCi1yTg

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2842369
04/25/19 03:28 PM
04/25/19 03:28 PM
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There is no single "acoustic piano pivot" standard. Like digitals, some acoustics have long pivots (usually the larger ones), some have short. It's ready to see and talk about the pivot point, but there's a lot more to the feel of an action than just that.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2842422
04/25/19 06:37 PM
04/25/19 06:37 PM
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Zaphod Offline
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Another example - Baby grand pivot compared to full sized grand pivot (or so I understand).

There simply is not really a "standard" it seems to me.

The VPC1 feels like a top quality piano action, as do most of the high end digital pianos (no the VPC1 is not a digital piano). However, if it's not for you then it seems the MP11 action is a little lighter.

Personally I find the VPC1 action to be neither heavy nor light.

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2842561
04/26/19 07:20 AM
04/26/19 07:20 AM
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I read in many post that MP11 is light, VPC1 feels light, that this or that piano feels light... may be I'm crazy but I feel both Kawai CL35 (AHA IV) and MP11 (Grand Feel) are heavier for me than the 75% of acoustic pianos I've played on. May be it is s custom of tuners in Argentina(or my region) to regulate actions near the light side?
And about pivot point, I haven't seen any acoustic piano with pivot point as short as CL35's in the black keys, the differencce in weight is really noticeable from front to back, for me it is quite annoying.


Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: Zaphod] #2842669
04/26/19 01:29 PM
04/26/19 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Zaphod
Another example - Baby grand pivot compared to full sized grand pivot (or so I understand).

There simply is not really a "standard" it seems to me.

The VPC1 feels like a top quality piano action, as do most of the high end digital pianos (no the VPC1 is not a digital piano). However, if it's not for you then it seems the MP11 action is a little lighter.

Personally I find the VPC1 action to be neither heavy nor light.


Yes I brought this up before. There is a different pivot length for baby grand versus full sized grand. Not so long ago Kawai for example, changed the pivot point on their RX-2 line when they introduced the Kawai GX to replace the RX series grand to make it easier to play when the finger is closer to the fall board. This may have been due to their market research that indicated that first time buyers might prefer a lighter action like those found in Yamaha's (when compared to Kawai in general). That doesn't mean anyone should avoid playing on an RX-2 versus as GX-2. Accomplished pianists had been doing that for years.

Just because a feature on a DP is changed doesn't mean you have to assume it's better or there was something wrong with the previous piano. It might just be different. All Kawai's actions are available today in different models. All of them are good. Though honestly I don't think any of them can replace the action found in an acoustic grand or high end hybrid.

BTW for those hybrids do they still require occasional visits by a piano technician for regulation of the action?


Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2842706
04/26/19 04:08 PM
04/26/19 04:08 PM
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Due to many opinions that the VPC has such a hard action , I was so unhappy that I stopped by a piano dealer today. I studied music and had piano as a minor subject. At the university I had a lot of experience with very different pianos and grand pianos. So today took a weight of 63g with me to objectively measure a downweight of a piano key. I went through all Kawai keyboards through GF, GF2, Millenium and various Yamaha digital pianos. I also played real grand pianos from Kawai, Yamaha and Bösendorfer. Here my opinion:
Most of all I was shocked by the GF (in MP11se). Yes it is a bit lighter than RM3 in the VPC but the feeling was that I see the keyboard as one of the worst of all pianos I have tried today. It's very spongy and slow in response. No other keyboard has such a long uplift time (the opposite of a brilliant keystroke). In my opinion, the counterweights are simply not optimal. The weight (downweight) of the Millenium action is similar to the RM3, but reacts a bit faster. With the acoustic grand pianos I had rather heavier actions than those of VPC (also a Kawai Grand was much heavier). What really amazed me was the fact that the actual weighting (which I had checked with my weight) and the feel/ touch often diverged completely. All in all, I am very happy with my VPC. It's a very good action, faster and more brilliant than GF and can keep up with all the other DP I tried today.

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2842758
04/26/19 07:57 PM
04/26/19 07:57 PM
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That´s nice to listen some of the opinions... I haven´t got acces to test the GF action on the MP11SE (and I was targetting that model because of the action) and really believed that the GF was superior to the RM3 of the VPC1... but if the RM3 is heavier and closer to a real piano action 'what is the point of the GF action on the MP11?'.

I made some muscle with an old Petrof upright and a more recent Yamaha U3, now I´m used to the feel of the Yamaha C3, and the work done on dynamics on any upright piano must be translated later to a grand because the chage in the action (faster and more precise). Which action would be better? RM3, GF, GF-II.... I assume the better would be the Myllenium3 of the NV10 but it´s out of my wallet at the moment (mortgage comes first).

BEST REGARDS

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