Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Rebuilt Steinways ~ replacement soundboards

I've been waiting for years to buy a grand piano, and now my time has come. I'm so excited, but my first visit to the large local piano shop ended with more confusion than answers. I expect to overthink and over-research everything for the amount of money I will be spending.

I've been reading as much as possible about rebuilt Steinways. I've searched through threads here, and I've found some great sounding, reputable piano shops that rebuild Steinways. I have spent the last week scouring their websites to learn about how they rebuild/restore pianos. I clearly understand though that Steinway does NOT sell their soundboards, so any shop that isn't Steinway is using non-authentic soundboards. The soundboard seems like the heart and soul of a piano, and I'm struggling to accept that it's still a Steinway with a non-Steinway soundboard. However, people seem to be buying these instruments and they are marketing them as "better than new".

*****Is it bad to buy a restored Steinway that has a replacement non-Steinway soundboard? But can I really trust an original 100+/- year old original soundboard to last? *****

I am obviously still in the very early stages of buying a piano. Please be kind.

Steinways use a system of making soundboards that's called compression crowning. The other system is call rib crowning. I have been making compression soundboards since the early 90's.

Before 1930 Steinway made their compression boards the traditional way ( basically a long wedge) and after 1930, switched to a diaphramatic type of compression board. The diaphramatic compression board is a horrible mistake, although it sounds good, it is not properly engineered and quickly fatigues.

I have studied the engineering of compression soundboards and have printed much material on it on the web via forums and i will not bore you with scientific details, but I have developed a method of making compression soundboards that are engineered properly, are extremely lightweight (what the diaphramatic method was after) and improve the tone on every piano my boards are installed in.

An interesting observation i have made is that even though I make my boards the same way for every piano, the Steinway sounds like a Steinway, the Mason and Hamlin sounds like a Mason and Hamlin. I just installed a board in Vose and Sons and it has its unique sound. The reason i mention these three pianos with identical boards installed ( and identical hammers, and identical strings) is that the only main difference between the three is the string scale and the frame structure. The Vose has a very light beam and rim structure, the Mason and Hamlin has a very stiff structure, and the Steinway has a large mass rim that flexes.

When it comes to compression boards, i think Baldwins were designed and made much better. I come across Baldwins from the 70's that are still in incredible condition in tone, because they were also engineered correctly.
In my opinion Steinways have many engineering problems and many shops can make them better than the factory can these days.

-chris

In the traditonal hand-made style of piano construction, the person tasked with construction of the soundboard is called a "bellyman". The name is derived from how the process creates a soundboard with an arched configuration. The board "bellies up".

Some rebuilders/manufacturers design a replacement soundboard by treating the structure more like a floor with the ribs curved by the milling process to help impart arch to the soundboard. Some rebuilders/manufacturers do not arch the ribs but glue the ribs only when the panel has been dried to a very low humidity. Some rebuilders/manufacturers use an arch shaped gluing caul to help impart the arch and some arch the bottom surface of the bridge to do the same. And some rebuilders/manufacturers shape the gluing surface of the rim to fit the crown in the board.

Thus there are many variables and standards common to the trade, and they can be mixed and matched so as to blur the distinction between fully compression-crowned and rib-crowned bellies.

The belly procedures at NY and Hamburg Steinway factories are not identical and have significant differences in the magnitude and proportion of the arching methods described above.

Thus one can see that there seems to be at least two styles of constructing an officially "authentic" Steinway.

Add to this that over time, both factories have evolved their belly procedure significantly. Thus a new NY board has significant differences from one made in 1900 or in 1950. Plus, each Bellyman has differing styles of making boards and they always have.

Testing to determine the signifigance of all these variables has never been done in a rigorous method. No one wants to spend that much money it seems.

I agree with Chris above where he opines that some diaphragmatic NY soundboards are too thinned in the treble for good endurance. I also share the opinion that not using a high enough proportion of compression crown available via the process is a mistake.

But there are so many other significant variables when you consider a rebuilt piano. Does the rebuilder understand the importance of shaping the V-bar to a true V-shape and that all agraffes need to have the string holes champfered to improve the string terminations? Is the rebuilder skilled enough in tone regulation to understand what components are in need of attention? Is the rebuilder skilled enough to see the "mistakes" in things like speaking length, striking point, string heights and tuning pin hole alignments in any given piano? Does the rebuilder understand that attempting to just "copy" what is there is impossible? That one must deduce the original design intent and use all the methods at hand to reimpose this design intent into a piano that carries "errors"?

No factory rebuild does this detail of work because no factory makes new pianos where these details are properly established.

Then does the rebuilder understand that some original design weaknesses can be solved or mitigated by applying new technology such as my Patented Fully Tempered Duplex Scale? Does the rebuilder understand how to make a "Hybrid Wire Scale"?

These are the things that can bring a rebuilt piano to a better than new state.

I do suggest you audition the pianos of any rebuilder you are considering to ascertain whether the skills are there in real time and you are not seduced by eloquent verbiage. This is enough material to chew on for now. Hope it helps you.

There's one other thing I'd like to add to this.

It's true that Steinways don't sell their soundboards to third party rebuilders, and that means that a third party rebuilder can not buy a soundboard from Steinway and install it themselves.

What they CAN do though, is have the piano sent to Steinways and have Steinway do the soundboard, strings, bridges and plank, while the third party rebuilder does the rest of the piano. It sounds a bit convoluted to have it done that way, but I know of a few instances of it happening here in Britain.

The other thing is, with my own eyes I have seen soundboards removed from Hamburg Steinways and soundboards removed from New York Steinways. They are indeed very different. The Hamburg ones I have seen from as recently as 2000 had no 'diaphragm' shape on them, it was the same or nearly the same thickness throughout. The reason the piano from 2000 needed the soundboard replaced was because the piano was dropped from the back of a transport truck.

As owner of a superb 1887 Steinway B with its original soundboard in place, I would never buy a refurbished piano with a new soundboard, not even if it were done by Steinway itself.

There is a whole world of difference in philosophy between US and European refurbishing of pianos and if you know that you're going to spend a long time deciding to find the one that makes your heart go bonkers, you should invest about 2000 USD to plan a one week trip to Europe, especially to Germany and Austria and visit some of the renowned piano shops that do really well documented rebuilds of superb quality. You can get a really beautiful Steinway B between 30 and 45k USD that won't need any more servicing done over the next couple of years other than tuning and voicing.

First and foremost, don't limit yourself to Steinway. Look at every dealer and spec rebuilder in your area, try the Baldwins, Bechsteins, Bosendorfers, etc. And don't forget about Steinway, try them too. Try a dozen or more.

There's no such thing as the best piano, but there will be the one you like best out of the ones you try. If I were to try all the same ones you do, chances are I'd pick a different one.

There's also a world of difference in climates between what's typical in many parts of the USA and what's typical in many parts of Europe. Here in Scotland we have pianos with original soundboards which still sound fantastic after 100 years, and that's true in much of northern Europe. There are parts of the world where a piano won't last 20 years, and it will need major surgery after a relatively short time.

I agree that some rebuilders are too ready to replace soundboards, but others are too keen to keep non-functioning soundboards in the name of keeping the instrument original. There needs to be more sense of balance.

As for rebuilders who have a shop and want to sell pianos, I totally understand why they want to replace as much of the piano as possible. It gives them far more control over the end result and is easier to issue a warranty with the instrument.

I would say that no one but the current iteration of Steinway can use the current made at Steinway soundboard. However, the current Steinway soundboard will be different than the soundboard used in a vintage Steinway in terms of the wood used and its varying thickness and varying impedance. Is it authentic to put a different sounding soundboard with different wood etc in a vintage Steinway? I think not. If you put a new Chevrolet engine in a 1950 Chevrolet, even though the name of the manufacturer is the same, it is certainly not authentic.
A rebuilder whose aim is authenticity, with sufficient expertise, can create a more authentic soundboard. They can use the public domain patents, they can use the same wood or a wood that more closely resembles the original etc etc. They may or may not choose to do this and it may or may not yield the best possible result, but if authenticity is the goal, the factory's hands are tied and a rebuilder has a lot more options.

As I have pointed out many times in the past, the "authenticity" sales approach has the purpose of distracting the buyer from paying attention to what matters. The actual sound of the instrument and how it plays, looks, etc.

Overwhelmingly, musicians/pianists care about performance, value, etc and not some arbitrary marketing idea of authenticity. I have yet to meet a pianist who played a piano and expressed their love of its authenticity. Pianists like pianos that sound and play the way they like and when they do, they may declare them " authentic".

Sometimes pianists may prefer an inauthentic piano. For instance, if the original design of the piano has a weak break, or weaknesses in the upper register and the rebuilt instrument has corrected these problems, the pianist will prefer the inauthentic piano. They may or may not recognize the changes.

Don't get caught up in this arbitrary sales spin of "authentic". It is generally nonsense. Rather, focus on performance and value. It may be that you prefer a rebuilt Steinway done at Steinway NY, or you may prefer a new Steinway. You may prefer a Steinway rebuilt by an independent rebuilder.
If you only focus on sound and performance you may prefer several other brands of piano, new, used or rebuilt.

There are a handful of very rare Steinways in which authenticity and frankly keeping them as original as possible is a desired approach that trumps performance and value. But these Steinways are rare indeed and the other 99.9 percent of Steinways will be preferred if the focus is on performance and value.

Wow. Thank you so much for all that wonderful information!!! Even the opinions are helpful. It may be quite obvious from my screen name, but I do play bassoon. I own a beautiful instrument made in Germany in the mid-1960s. I am familiar with bassoon rebuilds (although my instrument is not), and usually the wood of the instrument is not replaced. Of course there are special situations (lost/broken pieces or rot in the lower boot section) which would require new joints, but usually it's keys, pads, holes, pins, etc. I simply can't imagine a Heckel bassoon with a Fox wing joint. So, I'm trying to get my bearings in the world of rebuilt grand pianos. Trying to determine the line that divides which pieces can and cannot be replaced before it's not really the same instrument anymore.

I do agree that Steinway is not always the best. In fact, the last time I selected a grand piano I was 15 years old and had it narrowed down to a Steinway and a Schimmel. Man I loved that Schimmel. I begged for it. It is still in my parents' house and although it's a bit neglected now, I still love it. However, it's not mine to have so I'm shopping for my own. However, I do understand now as an adult the investment aspect of purchasing an instrument. Steinways seem to hold their value better over time... which leads right back to my concern about the soundboard being replaced. I need to not only fall in love with a piano, I need it to be a wise investment.

Finally, I would love to travel to Europe to shop for pianos but $2k doesn't even touch the cost/headache of finding childcare for my children. So that's not an option at all. However, my husband (who doesn't play piano) is 100% supportive of this purchase. He is encouraging me to do day trips to various direct flight mid-west and east coast cities to try out pianos. I plan to do that for sure. I have been gathering ideas from these boards about which shops to visit.

Thank you again for all of your information. I really appreciate your time.

Based on the depreciation chart in the Piano Buyer, Steinways only hold their value for a very tiny, almost insignificant amount more than other good pianos. If you buy a Steinway with the soundboard replaced by a rebuilder, and want to later sell the piano, almost no one considering the piano will care if the soundboard is an official Steinway soundboard. They will care about how the pianos sounds and the quality of the work done by the rebuilder.

BassoonGirl, welcome to Piano World and good luck in your search. How exciting to be in a quest to find your piano! I too almost bought a Schimmel grand once but ultimately decided to wait for my first love which was a Steinway B. Here is a link to my story if you are interested: Piano Nightmares

You've gotten some great responses so far since there is a lot of wisdom on this site. My technician says that the current work coming out of NY is probably the best that's been done in the past 50 years or so. Nevertheless he apprenticed under a local rebuilder and says that a Steinway branded soundboard is not that critical to the final result. It's the result that matters. The power, projection, tone and feel. It's as if we think, "Someday I may need to sell this piano. Who will recognize its value? Is it only someone who can be swayed by an argument that all components must be factory branded?" I think that's not the correct answer. I plan never to sell but if life changes then I hope that a musician (an artist) will try it and recognize what it is. They also will see the value.

With that in mind, however, it's important to me personally that my piano be all Steinway. Why is that? I just like what Steinway represents and it's more than the single instrument in my home. To me they represent a quest to be the best, a passion for excellence, an American success story, (initially) a family business, good jobs for people who love what they do and are part of the passion, a devotion to artists and music, etc. Plus there are so many great artists who apparently hear and feel the same thing that I do when I sit down to a Steinway because that's what they choose.

I've played (and owned) lots of pianos. If there's a piano somewhere (like in a hotel) I sit down and start playing. If there's a sign "Don't play the piano!" I hide the sign and start playing. She's a siren calling to me and I can't resist. But when it's a Steinway in good condition I can barely stop.

I think the problem with the word "investment" is that we usually think of it in the first definition which is "I pay a certain amount, it increases in value, and I sell at a higher price." That will never happen with any piano and sales and marketing types who push that are blowing smoke. But is my piano an investment? It is to me because I'm thinking of the other definitions such as it is worth buying because it may be useful in the future. It's like a good tool. You can buy cheap junk (sorry no offense intended) from Harbor Freight but the frustration on the back end is not worth it. A good quality tool is an investment although I doubt you'll ever sell at a profit. Also an investment represents devoting effort or time to something with the expectation of a worthwhile result. My piano is an investment because I love to play it. I love to practice. Even scales and exercises which I used to shortcut I now enjoy simply because the sound and the feel are just right to me. I remember struggling throughout elementary and middle school to learn to play the saxophone and actually get something musical out of it. Then one day, the band director (God bless him) gave me a new Selmer. "Oh! I see! THIS is what the instrument is supposed to do!" When a musical instrument is not something you fight then it becomes an extension of your brain and body and the quest for excellence is eased a bit. I say this from a long lifetime of fighting with the piano even some Steinways. Honestly, it's only been Bs and Ds that truly speak to me (never had a chance to play a C).

So whether or not you end up with a Steinway or something else I'd encourage you to take the time and make the effort to find the instrument that encourages that love for music and passion to pursue excellence. I hope you'll share more with us especially once you find something so that we can celebrate with you.

George,

Very well put. Cannot add a thing. 😊

Pwg

If you're worried about sound boards, perhaps the best thing you could do would be to make a couple of those day trips that your husband suggested and actually play a few (rather than talk theoretically about them).

If you're worried about depreciation and making a wise choice, given the law of diminishing returns, you could probably find a very nice piano for which the total cash outlay would be less than what you'd "lose" on a higher priced piano.

Hi Bassoongirl,

Sorry I am arriving late to this party. Much has been said already that I totally agree with, but the bottom line is this - you need to play some pianos. Listen carefully and critically, feel the touch and listen to the tone. You might be surprised that some rebuilds will perform better than a new Steinway.

If you are unfamiliar with the concept of rebuilding and how comprehensive it can be (or how limited it can be) ask more questions here.

For fun, this is a 10 minute video that was produced for The Science Channel's program, "How It's Made" on rebuilding.

No one today has the same exact materials and fixtures used 100 years ago to build a Steinway. The times are different and for the most part, we today have many more options to use to solve the piano building puzzle. The pivotal skills needed are a keen understanding of the design intent, and the design limitations of the older Steinways. And the experience and skill to formulate an engineering model for Steinway tone that incorporates best modern practices.

Of course, the factory production people have great skills in new piano production. But there are independent technicians who have delved much deeper into piano design elements than the factory. The Steinway "Restoration Dept. is a misleading name. They do not return an old Steinway to original specs, they install current production specs as much as possible. The factory is a quick way to make an old Steinway a new Steinway. It will not have the lighter hammers and higher action leverage that gives faster speed and nuance to the action that Steinways in NY had prior to WW2.

BassonGirl,
My perspective perhaps is not the most popular. Fact, a quality rebuilt piano is not cheap.
Except for a Steinway B, I would not purchase ANY rebuilt Steinway, regardless who rebuilt the piano, it is not worth the money. All piano re-builders think they know better than the next guy, there is not a S, M, L, O (maybe a stretched A) that it is a spectacular piano.
If you can get over the biased of the Steinway name. There are manufacturers making New wonderful pianos that you'll have very little to be concerned with, and you can pay a skilled (re-builder-tech) to prep your new piano extremely well and maintain it over the years.
If you have a high budget buy yourself a Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, a high-end Yamaha or Shigeru Kawai.

I'm with Keith on this. I'm a conservative restorer. That means I conserve the original intention of the factory at the time of manufacture.

Ed and Chris use a different approach, but it's true that an authentic Steinway branded rebuild of a vintage Steinway will really be building a new Steinway in an old frame because the soundboard, rim, action, keys, iron frame, hammers and more are much different on a vintage Steinway.

Notice, no one makes the same confusion wit a rebuilt Bechstein or other brands. This is because the current copyright holders of these other brands are not in the rebuilding business nor competing with their vintage pianos for sales.

Choose any piano on its merits. Choose any rebuilder on their reputation. These reputations are hard earned and don't show up because of a few Google reviews by some kids.

If you love the piano, price is right, rebuilder reputable, go for it. If you want 100% Steinway, the only real choice is new or newer used, not any rebuild, either done by Steinway or anyone else.

The spruce used on vintage Steinways no longer exists for them or us. The maple is no longer old growth trees, but patched up smaller trees. Whether or not this affects anything at all is truly unknown and authentic research would be prohibitively expensive to find out.


Hope this helps.

Steve

Almost true. The best I see and do myself, is getting an original well kept unaltered vintage Steinway, preserve as much as possible and keep it as the factory built it following the intact original parts and restoring original parts if possible. More time consuming for sure.

It's true, someone who has not designed and built 100's of thousands of pianos may not know better than the factory. However, a good rebuilder has the same knowledge that factories do and can invest more personal time and energy into each piano and correct flaws better. They may be more familiar with vintage pianos too.

My feeling is that if the same specific parts and processes are used on all pianos, the technician is in love with the parts and the techniques. Each piano should be evaluated as to what will achieve the goal and parts should be chosen based on what works for a specific piano. I can already hear the strong objections to this opinion.

Unfortunately, I do see in my area many restored Steinways that are abdominal. Wrong shanks, wrong hammers, wrong strings, wrong geometry and I see the concert pianists wrestling with them trying to perform. Also impossible to tune well because of bad pin-blocks and original agraffes and bridges not cleaned or replaced if needed. Not uncommon. There's even one Steinway D in use that is a Hamburg D and someone put in a NY action and removed the bottom of the bass bridge breaking the factory engineered intention and inserting pinblock material. A D with bad bass and impossible to play.

Hope this helps

Steve

I wondered why they call soundboard installers "bellymen!"

I see more bad workmanship than bad original soundboards, even on pianos well over 100 years old.