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Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842295 04/25/19 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal
…... Someone also told me that you could get a much better piano sound from a VST than from any digital piano....


The problem you are experiencing is that you are in the phase where you believe the hype …. from manufacturers, from users on YouTube, and on this forum.

In time you will begin to realize that you have to pick and choose which of those you believe …. based on past history.

In general, that means do not believe anything unless you know the source and KNOW you can trust that source.

Otherwise, you are likely to be misguided and disappointed.

Good Luck


Don

Casio PX-S1000, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Yamaha MG06 Mixer
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842303 04/25/19 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal
One of the biggest reasons to why I got all this gear to be able to play VST's was because of this video;
NOIRE
I think it sounds AMAZING! Such a beautiful sound!
But Im afraid that if i buy it for €150 and try it out......it will sound terrible (for some reason)

The same Youtuber (Woody) is also playing Pianoteq on his channel, and that also sounds amazing......but through my speakers and headphones it sound awful!
I wish you could hear how it sounds.....

Ok lets get one thing straight here: are you listening to the videos and your playing through the same chain (DAC/AMP/Headphone)?
If not, DO THAT FIRST.

Yes, the VST demos always sound super nice, it is actually hard to get that super nice sound re-created, sounds schizo? It is.

Take the NOIR for example, you don't just hear the piano but listen to a crapton of reverb and effects added to it. Unless you manage to procure the settings, and touch curve the dude used you will NOT get that sound. I have read multiple warnings about that issue on this forum alone and that is one of the reasons why I never bothered to venture beyond pianoteq.

Personally, before trying to discuss taste and other nonsense, you need to address the elephant in the room: why does the VST sound radically different from the videos to you playing. It might be your playing itself that is not sophisticated enough to bring out the beauty it might be different devices, it might be VST settings. More reseach is in order until you manage to get a similar sound to the videos.

The sound is there, if you like the videos you should like the general character of the VST, there is no reason for a dramatic difference of "super awesome to absolute garbage".

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Grab the 3 files in this post over here. Listen to the Pianoteq WAV file and see if you think it sounds decent.


Would help if it was the same piece lol.
As it stands, the midi file is sth completely different and apparently somewhat broken (first 5 minutes are silence).

Tested it, general characteristics are the same but I vastly prefer PTQ to the wav, probably because the wav was done on an older version.

REMEMBER TO VOLUME MATCH!

Last edited by Granyala; 04/25/19 11:02 AM.

The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 7 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
QuasiUnaFantasia #2842320 04/25/19 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
With Pianoteq, it is important to be aware of the HUGE influence of the velocity curve. If I choose a standard velocity curve, everything will sound really bad. If I choose one of my carefully crafted velocity curves, the sound is absolutely tolerable.

Is that for your FP30? Any chance of, you know, like, posting one or two of them on here? Hmmm? cool

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
thickfingers #2842352 04/25/19 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
With Pianoteq, it is important to be aware of the HUGE influence of the velocity curve. If I choose a standard velocity curve, everything will sound really bad. If I choose one of my carefully crafted velocity curves, the sound is absolutely tolerable.

Is that for your FP30? Any chance of, you know, like, posting one or two of them on here? Hmmm? cool


It is for the FP30, and if I could figure out how to post it, I wouldn't mind. But a) these curves are primarily for the Grotrian and the Bechstein, and b) they are suited for my setup (meaning soundcard, amplifier, and loudspeakers or headphones) and may not be at all nice for someone with a different setup. I have found that curves that give excellent results through loudspeakers sound horible through headphones, and vice versa.


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
Synthogy Studio Grands, Production Voices Estate Grand, Garritan CFX Lite, Pianoteq 6.7.3 (Blüthner, Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2)
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
QuasiUnaFantasia #2842357 04/25/19 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
With Pianoteq, it is important to be aware of the HUGE influence of the velocity curve. If I choose a standard velocity curve, everything will sound really bad. If I choose one of my carefully crafted velocity curves, the sound is absolutely tolerable.
Is that for your FP30? Any chance of, you know, like, posting one or two of them on here? Hmmm? cool
It is for the FP30, and if I could figure out how to post it, I wouldn't mind. But a) these curves are primarily for the Grotrian and the Bechstein, and b) they are suited for my setup (meaning soundcard, amplifier, and loudspeakers or headphones) and may not be at all nice for someone with a different setup. I have found that curves that give excellent results through loudspeakers sound horible through headphones, and vice versa.

I'd be interested since I mainly use the Bechstein these days on my FP30. The velocity file is simply two comma-delimited lists separated with a semi-colon. For example, this is one for the Roland FP-3 (taken from the Pianoteq.com website):

Code
Velocity = [0, 1, 9, 17, 25, 33, 41, 49, 57, 65, 73, 81, 89, 97, 105, 113, 121, 127; 0, 0, 5, 12, 21, 32, 44, 53, 59, 64, 69, 76, 86, 97, 108, 117, 124, 127]


You could just post it in your reply to this message.


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
QuasiUnaFantasia #2842367 04/25/19 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
With Pianoteq, it is important to be aware of the HUGE influence of the velocity curve. If I choose a standard velocity curve, everything will sound really bad. If I choose one of my carefully crafted velocity curves, the sound is absolutely tolerable.

Is that for your FP30? Any chance of, you know, like, posting one or two of them on here? Hmmm? cool


It is for the FP30, and if I could figure out how to post it, I wouldn't mind. But a) these curves are primarily for the Grotrian and the Bechstein, and b) they are suited for my setup (meaning soundcard, amplifier, and loudspeakers or headphones) and may not be at all nice for someone with a different setup. I have found that curves that give excellent results through loudspeakers sound horible through headphones, and vice versa.

Simple, just upload the pianoteq fxp profile. laugh

You can find them in C:\Users\(USERNAME)\AppData\Roaming\Modartt\Pianoteq\Presets\My Presets


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 7 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
QuasiUnaFantasia #2842373 04/25/19 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
With Pianoteq, it is important to be aware of the HUGE influence of the velocity curve. If I choose a standard velocity curve, everything will sound really bad. If I choose one of my carefully crafted velocity curves, the sound is absolutely tolerable.


So …. by choosing one of your "carefully crafted curves" you were able to raise the level of your sound to "tolerable".


Don

Casio PX-S1000, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Yamaha MG06 Mixer
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
dmd #2842395 04/25/19 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
With Pianoteq, it is important to be aware of the HUGE influence of the velocity curve. If I choose a standard velocity curve, everything will sound really bad. If I choose one of my carefully crafted velocity curves, the sound is absolutely tolerable.


So …. by choosing one of your "carefully crafted curves" you were able to raise the level of your sound to "tolerable".




Ptq has demo tunes you can play on any piano supplied with your version, both bought and free samples. You'll be playing them through the vel curves you selected yourself, and they still will sound good. The reason for that is obvious; the playing's good. And you hear a recording under certain ambient conditions. It may not feel comfortable to play under those conditions.
Maybe PT needs to add "Digital Piano Ambience" to reflect a typical default setting digital piano . . . . which may detract from it's purpose, but may win it more friends.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
dmd #2842397 04/25/19 03:38 PM
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"Tolerable", from "intolerable", is in the right direction, which is the point of improvement. If others perceive an improvement with the custom curve, then sehr gut mein Freund. Danke schon!

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842428 04/25/19 05:50 PM
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As others have said, speakers/headphones, audio interface, cpu etc can all make a huge difference.

Haven’t tried the current pianoteq, personally to me, out of the box the previous version had a kind of metallic noise I didn’t get on with, but didn’t tweak it in any way.

If you have a good pc, sound interface, speakers etc it’s down to personal preference. What I like, many will probably hate.

The Korg Kronos is highly thought of. I didn’t like the action (or the incredibly long time it takes from switch on until you can play your first note). But I loved the synth engines etc, a superb instrument.

Inside the Kronos is old 32 bit PC hardware running their own software. In a way it’s not much different from a vst plug-in originally developed by Steinberg for Cubase, a rtas plugin developed by digidesign for protools (up to to version 10) or aax developed by Avid for protools 10 onwards.

My point being, an 88 note Kronos costs you around £2500 +. and all you are getting is pc software and samples (ok it’s put together superbly). Using a daw and VSTs, I would argue you get much more for much less cost than you would buying the Kronos (mind you, if I was gigging, I would still prefer a Kronos).

There’s tons of vsts out there. Many rubbish, many great.

VSTs are really an interface for a daw to use a companies software (some companies only offer vst versions and not stand alone versiond) For instance if you buy Spectronics Omnisphere, you get a stand alone version plus a vst allowing you to use Omnisphere with your Daw, Omnisphere is huge, something like 64GB of samples. Likewise Native Instruments Kontakt, it’s stand alone, or a vst allows you to access it through a Daw. The amount of Instruments etc available for Kontakt is simply huge.

Owning Omnisphere, NI Komplete 12, Arturia v6 collection and numerous other software Instruments, I’m sorry, but if you think all software Instruments, VSTs sound bad (rather than not your taste) I suspect something is wrong with your pc or sound system

If I want to play a vst and don’t want to load my Daw, I use Cantabile Lite, which is free.

Last edited by Ojustaboo; 04/25/19 05:55 PM.
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Tyrone Slothrop #2842532 04/26/19 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I'd be interested since I mainly use the Bechstein these days on my FP30. The velocity file is simply two comma-delimited lists separated with a semi-colon. For example, this is one for the Roland FP-3 (taken from the Pianoteq.com website):

Code
Velocity = [0, 1, 9, 17, 25, 33, 41, 49, 57, 65, 73, 81, 89, 97, 105, 113, 121, 127; 0, 0, 5, 12, 21, 32, 44, 53, 59, 64, 69, 76, 86, 97, 108, 117, 124, 127]


You could just post it in your reply to this message.


I will post some velocity curves in a separate thread.


Originally Posted by dmd

So …. by choosing one of your "carefully crafted curves" you were able to raise the level of your sound to "tolerable".


My base line is an acoustic grand. Getting "tolerable" performance from a digital piano is not at all bad from my perspective. In fact, I can tolerate it. smile


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
Synthogy Studio Grands, Production Voices Estate Grand, Garritan CFX Lite, Pianoteq 6.7.3 (Blüthner, Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2)
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842537 04/26/19 03:47 AM
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Regarding velocity. I think I have a pretty good velocity curve in my digital piano......but I have found that when using VST's it differs a lot. Some VST I have tried almost doesn't have any velocity curve at all, and it's almost unplayable, and in others it's better.

Doesn't my DP send it's velocity curve via MIDI? Why does it differ? and can you change it somehow?

In Pianoteq for an example, I have a hard time hitting below 25.....and when I tried the calibration in Pianoteq it got even worse.

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842544 04/26/19 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal

Doesn't my DP send it's velocity curve via MIDI? Why does it differ? and can you change it somehow?

In Pianoteq for an example, I have a hard time hitting below 25.....and when I tried the calibration in Pianoteq it got even worse.


The DP simply sends MIDI values (from 0 to 127) to the VST. The velocity curve of the VST defines what the VST does with those MIDI values. If the curve is a straight line from 0 to 127, the VST will interpret a MIDI value of x as a sound pressure level of x, but a curved velocity curve might interpret the same MIDI value of x as 2 * x, or 0.6 * x, or anything else for that matter. Using the VST velocity curve, you can change the behaviour out of all recognition.

For my FP30, the Pianoteq semi-automated calibration fails utterly, and therefore I manually construct the curves.

Last edited by QuasiUnaFantasia; 04/26/19 04:34 AM.

Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
Synthogy Studio Grands, Production Voices Estate Grand, Garritan CFX Lite, Pianoteq 6.7.3 (Blüthner, Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2)
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842549 04/26/19 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal
Regarding velocity. I think I have a pretty good velocity curve in my digital piano......but I have found that when using VST's it differs a lot. Some VST I have tried almost doesn't have any velocity curve at all, and it's almost unplayable, and in others it's better.

Doesn't my DP send it's velocity curve via MIDI? Why does it differ? and can you change it somehow?

In Pianoteq for an example, I have a hard time hitting below 25.....and when I tried the calibration in Pianoteq it got even worse.

Gimbal, did you try the experiment that I posted above? How did it sound coming out of your setup? Like it sounded in the WAV file, or very different?


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Tyrone Slothrop #2842556 04/26/19 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Gimbal
Regarding velocity. I think I have a pretty good velocity curve in my digital piano......but I have found that when using VST's it differs a lot. Some VST I have tried almost doesn't have any velocity curve at all, and it's almost unplayable, and in others it's better.

Doesn't my DP send it's velocity curve via MIDI? Why does it differ? and can you change it somehow?

In Pianoteq for an example, I have a hard time hitting below 25.....and when I tried the calibration in Pianoteq it got even worse.

Gimbal, did you try the experiment that I posted above? How did it sound coming out of your setup? Like it sounded in the WAV file, or very different?



I did, and it sounded about the same to me. I also tried playing some more inside Pianoteq, and this time around it didn't sound as terrible as a remembered..

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842559 04/26/19 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal
I did, and it sounded about the same to me. I also tried playing some more inside Pianoteq, and this time around it didn't sound as terrible as a remembered..

Well it wouldn't be expected to sound exactly the same since the WAV file had the reverb from the East West Spaces II reverb add-on that the MIDI file obviously wouldn't have, but this is good. It means there is probably not something wrong with your specific hardware or set up. Perhaps as others have suggested, you just need to tweak your VST settings such as the velocity curve, etc., when you play.

For example, if when you play a particular key, there is too high a midi value that is generated, then the timbre of that note in Pianoteq will become harsh even if you turn the volume down. Pianoteq will think you did a fff when all you did was an mf, and turning down the volume wouldn't make it less harsh, just harsh and softer. So velocity values are very important.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842568 04/26/19 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal

In Pianoteq for an example, I have a hard time hitting below 25.....and when I tried the calibration in Pianoteq it got even worse.


On default Pianoteq velocity curve (full 1-127), 25 is around pp (in their dynamic range from ppp - fff)
How high the value goes when you play hard?
If the upper limit is relatively low, it is like you are playing a piano with limited dynamic and tonal range.
I would guess that it would sound expressionless and toy-keyboard-like.

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
siros #2842571 04/26/19 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by siros
Originally Posted by Gimbal

In Pianoteq for an example, I have a hard time hitting below 25.....and when I tried the calibration in Pianoteq it got even worse.


On default Pianoteq velocity curve (full 1-127), 25 is around pp (in their dynamic range from ppp - fff)
How high the value goes when you play hard?
If the upper limit is relatively low, it is like you are playing a piano with limited dynamic and tonal range.
I would guess that it would sound expressionless and toy-keyboard-like.


I did this test with a stand alone program......don't know how to tell what exakt readings I would get inside Pianoteq...

[Linked Image]

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842573 04/26/19 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal
I did this test with a stand alone program......don't know how to tell what exakt readings I would get inside Pianoteq...

Options -> Midi, there you will see he last midi messages received in the window.

[Linked Image]


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 7 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Granyala #2842575 04/26/19 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by Gimbal
I did this test with a stand alone program......don't know how to tell what exakt readings I would get inside Pianoteq...

Options -> Midi, there you will see he last midi messages received in the window.

[Linked Image]

I'm impressed, Granyala - you use 4 pedals?


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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